Christians... and whoever else wants to come at me

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] And you're up....stop trying to dodge by expecting others to do your work for you.Nuck81

Nibroc you are the one makin the assertion that christians arent christians if they dont believe in the rapture. I strongly disagree as not all christians have the same beliefs. And the bible is a very loose document full of interpretation. If you are going to make the claim that the rapture is clearly spelled out -in no uncertain terms -in the bible, then the onus is on you for the proof. Christians cant even agree on exactly what hell is. I doubt they have concrete beliefs on the rapture.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] And you're up....stop trying to dodge by expecting others to do your work for you.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="xaos"] Thessalonians 4:17, but the problem isn't context, its whether or not you choose to read it as allegory or a literal description. Same can be said of most of the Bible, actually.alexside1

proving things that shouldn't need proving gets very frustrating Nibroc420

[QUOTE="alexside1"][QUOTE="xaos"] Thessalonians 4:17, but the problem isn't context, its whether or not you choose to read it as allegory or a literal description. Same can be said of most of the Bible, actually.sonicare

Nibroc you are the one makin the assertion that christians arent christians if they dont believe in the rapture. I strongly disagree as not all christians have the same beliefs. And the bible is a very loose document full of interpretation. If you are going to make the claim that the rapture is clearly spelled out -in no uncertain terms -in the bible, then the onus is on you for the proof. Christians cant even agree on exactly what hell is. I doubt they have concrete beliefs on the rapture.

sonicare

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] proving things that shouldn't need proving gets very frustrating fidosim

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

Nibroc you are the one makin the assertion that christians arent christians if they dont believe in the rapture. I strongly disagree as not all christians have the same beliefs. And the bible is a very loose document full of interpretation. If you are going to make the claim that the rapture is clearly spelled out -in no uncertain terms -in the bible, then the onus is on you for the proof. Christians cant even agree on exactly what hell is. I doubt they have concrete beliefs on the rapture.

Nibroc420

As for "bible is a very loose document full of interpretation", that's sort of the go-to answer isn't it? Sifting through the bible, picking and choosing what to listen to, and what to ignore. Anyone can do that and come out with any BS religion.Nibroc420

And this here ladies and gentleman, is why anti-theist are equally as ignorant and bad as your common fundamentalist.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="sonicare"]

Nibroc you are the one makin the assertion that christians arent christians if they dont believe in the rapture. I strongly disagree as not all christians have the same beliefs. And the bible is a very loose document full of interpretation. If you are going to make the claim that the rapture is clearly spelled out -in no uncertain terms -in the bible, then the onus is on you for the proof. Christians cant even agree on exactly what hell is. I doubt they have concrete beliefs on the rapture.

Nuck81

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] proving things that shouldn't need proving gets very frustrating Nibroc420

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

As for "bible is a very loose document full of interpretation", that's sort of the go-to answer isn't it? Sifting through the bible, picking and choosing what to listen to, and what to ignore. Anyone can do that and come out with any BS religion.alexside1

And this here ladies and gentleman, is why anti-theist are equally as ignorant and bad as your common fundamentalist.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

As for "bible is a very loose document full of interpretation", that's sort of the go-to answer isn't it? Sifting through the bible, picking and choosing what to listen to, and what to ignore. Anyone can do that and come out with any BS religion.

And this here ladies and gentleman, is why anti-theist are equally as ignorant and bad as your common fundamentalist.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="sonicare"] Dude, those little things you are whining about are the reason there are literally 5000 different sects of christianity. They dont all believe in the same things. Lutherans, protestantst, episcopalians, catholics, etc. all have different beliefs. Those books you refer to are open to tons of different interpretations and a lot of the "rules" of religion have not basis in the books, but rather by specific rules of each institution. LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

The rapture isn't anywhere in the bible,it was just made up by some churches and that's about it. Church doctrine does not equal Bible, kind of like the Catholics. Many of their views and teachings have NOTHING to do with the bible at all, like the pope being ableto talk to God or how the Catholic Church was started by Jesus.

Sorry but the pope is just a man and isn't in the bible, and Jesus didn't start any church. He was Jewish and went to synagouges, there was no church in his lifetime. None of that is in the bible, just like the rapture. I wish more people would actually read it and understand it...

Jandurin

Sure they can. What makes 2.1 billion people following a lie more right than 1 person who knows the truth?

[QUOTE="alexside1"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

As for "bible is a very loose document full of interpretation", that's sort of the go-to answer isn't it? Sifting through the bible, picking and choosing what to listen to, and what to ignore. Anyone can do that and come out with any BS religion.Nibroc420

And this here ladies and gentleman, is why anti-theist are equally as ignorant and bad as your common fundamentalist.

Here is the short answer.

Why is it that I believe the rapture has not occurred? Because Jesus has not yet physically returned for all the world to see.

Here is the long answer.

Personally I do not hold to the same view that many American evangelicals hold regarding the rapture.

Basically, many Christians within the US hold to what is referred to as Dispensational Theology. This view of theology effects the way one interprets many of the events in Scripture and the events that will happen in the future regarding the nature of Christ's return. As a result, many who have this theological stance believe that Jesus will first have an invisible return to "rapture" his followers home as the earth is destroyed over a period of 7 years in which the Antichrist begins his reign on earth. At the end of this time of tribulation Christ finally makes his visible return.

I, however, in my rejection of Dispensational Theology and many of its conclusion have come to a different series of events. Basically, I believe Jesus will only return once. Yes, there is a period of tribulation but the "rapture" and Christ's visible return will happen at once.

Here is the popular view regarding the rapture: "rapture" of all believers, period of tribulation for 7 years, Christ's return along with the believers as they are raised from the dead, literal 1000 year reign of Christ, etc. etc.

Here is my view: After all across the world have come to hear of the message of Jesus Christ a period of great persecution will occur, Christ returns raising the dead of those who have believed in life and "rapturing" or recreating those who are still alive, and Christ defeats the Antichrist and all who follow him, etc. etc.

i don't see rivers of blood.... so we're good for now

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="alexside1"]

And this here ladies and gentleman, is why anti-theist are equally as ignorant and bad as your common fundamentalist.

alexside1

Here is the short answer.

Why is it that I believe the rapture has not occurred? Because Jesus has not yet physically returned for all the world to see.

Here is the long answer.

Personally I do not hold to the same view that many American evangelicals hold regarding the rapture.

Basically, many Christians within the US hold to what is referred to as Dispensational Theology. This view of theology effects the way one interprets many of the events in Scripture and the events that will happen in the future regarding the nature of Christ's return. As a result, many who have this theological stance believe that Jesus will first have an invisible return to "rapture" his followers home as the earth is destroyed over a period of 7 years in which the Antichrist begins his reign on earth. At the end of this time of tribulation Christ finally makes his visible return.

I, however, in my rejection of Dispensational Theology and many of its conclusion have come to a different series of events. Basically, I believe Jesus will only return once. Yes, there is a period of tribulation but the "rapture" and Christ's visible return will happen at once.

Here is the popular view regarding the rapture: "rapture" of all believers, period of tribulation for 7 years, Christ's return along with the believers as they are raised from the dead, literal 1000 year reign of Christ, etc. etc.

Here is my view: After all across the world have come to hear of the message of Jesus Christ a period of great persecution will occur, Christ returns raising the dead of those who have believed in life and "rapturing" or recreating those who are still alive, and Christ defeats the Antichrist and all who follow him, etc. etc.

mindstorm

Please forgive me for saying so, but it seems like a lot of theatrics for an end-game played by an omnipotent and omniscient being.

Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]Please forgive me for saying so, but it seems like a lot of theatrics for an end-game played by an omnipotent and omniscient being.

mindstorm

Will there be popcorn?

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]Please forgive me for saying so, but it seems like a lot of theatrics for an end-game played by an omnipotent and omniscient being.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="alexside1"]

And this here ladies and gentleman, is why anti-theist are equally as ignorant and bad as your common fundamentalist.

alexside1

Regardless, I don't think you understand the problem with having books open to such "interpretation" The minute something in the bible could be proven wrong, it no longer becomes important, and turns into something that has both no meaning (thus it cannot be proven wrong) but also has every meaning (aka: open to interpretation.)

Things like "He covers the heavens with clouds, provides rain for the earth, and makes the grass grow in mountain pastures." Oh? We've seen above the clouds now? There's no heaven up there? It must be a Metaphor :roll: Once you claim everything "open to interpretation", it cannot be proven wrong, there's no definitive meaning behind the text.

This "Choose your own meaning" styIe means the bible can never be "wrong", yet cannot be "right", while also being the only proof to support the thing the religion believes in.

X proves Y.
Y proves X.
Yet without defining either X or Y, no-one can prove you wrong -.-

Gotta love religious "logic"

Here is my view: After all across the world have come to hear of the message of Jesus Christ a period of great persecution will occur, Christ returns raising the dead of those who have believed in life and "rapturing" or recreating those who are still alive, and Christ defeats the Antichrist and all who follow him, etc. etc.

mindstorm

Jesus won't return riding a cloud from the sky. That's taking symbolic scripture and applying it literally Jesus said he would return as he began. Which was a man, born of a woman

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Here is my view: After all across the world have come to hear of the message of Jesus Christ a period of great persecution will occur, Christ returns raising the dead of those who have believed in life and "rapturing" or recreating those who are still alive, and Christ defeats the Antichrist and all who follow him, etc. etc.

Nuck81

Who defines what is symbolic, and what it literal? You? Him?

Maybe it was literal, and not Symbolic, but wait, that would mean that he's right!
Good thing both of you will never know, and you can both be right :roll:

[QUOTE="alexside1"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I dont think you understand. The bible has roughly 2.000 pages of text (it will vary based on which version) Anyone, and i mean ANYONE can sift through those 2,000 pages, picking and choosing which stories they view as the "most important". Through doing this they can develop several different religions. However the bible isn't like those children's "choose your own adventure" books, where you flip from page 12 to page 60, then to page 35. It was written in sequence, telling a story. To twist this story is to twist it's meaning. Thus we get 2000 religions all from 1 book, because rather than reading it, and attempting to understand the story, they simply pick and choose.Nibroc420

Regardless, I don't think you understand the problem with having books open to such "interpretation" The minute something in the bible could be proven wrong, it no longer becomes important, and turns into something that has both no meaning (thus it cannot be proven wrong) but also has every meaning (aka: open to interpretation.)

Things like "He covers the heavens with clouds, provides rain for the earth, and makes the grass grow in mountain pastures." Oh? We've seen above the clouds now? There's no heaven up there? It must be a Metaphor :roll: Once you claim everything "open to interpretation", it cannot be proven wrong, there's no definitive meaning behind the text.

This "Choose your own meaning" styIe means the bible can never be "wrong", yet cannot be "right", while also being the only proof to support the thing the religion believes in.

X proves Y.
Y proves X.
Yet without defining either X or Y, no-one can prove you wrong -.-

Gotta love religious "logic"

The writing was not intended to be taken as a literal textbook, but whether as a book describing the wonders of God. And, yes, it is a methophor, just as much of the text was written poetically.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Here is my view: After all across the world have come to hear of the message of Jesus Christ a period of great persecution will occur, Christ returns raising the dead of those who have believed in life and "rapturing" or recreating those who are still alive, and Christ defeats the Antichrist and all who follow him, etc. etc.

Nuck81

Since you are the expert, what is the interpretation that christians should have of it?

i don't see rivers of blood.... so we're good for now

Chris_Williams

Then we must gather all the used tampons in New York and squeeze them into the Mississippi!

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"]

i don't see rivers of blood.... so we're good for now

THE_DRUGGIE

Then we must gather all the used tampons in New York and squeeze them into the Mississippi!

Since you are the expert, what is the interpretation that christians should have of it?

sonicare

Since you are the expert, what is the interpretation that christians should have of it?

sonicare

These differences are not things that we should fight over as Christians and none of the above views are essential to salvation. Then, as you ask, what is essential?

Let me do so by telling you the story of the Bible itself: God created a good world, man sinned and brought evil into what was a good creation, God promiced that he would provide a redemption for his people, Christ is the one who brings that redemption, and Christ will one day bring about both a restoration and a judgment. This is what is essential, that through Jesus God will make what has been broken.

Let me do so by telling you the story of the Bible itself: God created a good world, man sinned and brought evil into what was a good creation, God promiced that he would provide a redemption for his people, Christ is the one who brings that redemption, and Christ will one day bring about both a restoration and a judgment. This is what is essential, that through Jesus God will make what has been broken.

mindstorm

This whole thing is a metaphor, you should stop taking symbolic scripture literally.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Let me do so by telling you the story of the Bible itself: God created a good world, man sinned and brought evil into what was a good creation, God promiced that he would provide a redemption for his people, Christ is the one who brings that redemption, and Christ will one day bring about both a restoration and a judgment. This is what is essential, that through Jesus God will make what has been broken.

Nibroc420

This whole thing is a metaphor, you should stop taking symbolic scripture literally.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Let me do so by telling you the story of the Bible itself: God created a good world, man sinned and brought evil into what was a good creation, God promiced that he would provide a redemption for his people, Christ is the one who brings that redemption, and Christ will one day bring about both a restoration and a judgment. This is what is essential, that through Jesus God will make what has been broken.

Nibroc420

This whole thing is a metaphor, you should stop taking symbolic scripture literally.

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Here is my view: After all across the world have come to hear of the message of Jesus Christ a period of great persecution will occur, Christ returns raising the dead of those who have believed in life and "rapturing" or recreating those who are still alive, and Christ defeats the Antichrist and all who follow him, etc. etc.

mindstorm

[QUOTE="THE_DRUGGIE"]

[QUOTE="Chris_Williams"]

i don't see rivers of blood.... so we're good for now

Frame_Dragger

Then we must gather all the used tampons in New York and squeeze them into the Mississippi!

How are we ever going to start the apocalypse with that kind of attitude?

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

Let me do so by telling you the story of the Bible itself: God created a good world, man sinned and brought evil into what was a good creation, God promiced that he would provide a redemption for his people, Christ is the one who brings that redemption, and Christ will one day bring about both a restoration and a judgment. This is what is essential, that through Jesus God will make what has been broken.

mindstorm

This whole thing is a metaphor, you should stop taking symbolic scripture literally.