Computer Science and Programming Languages Are Terrible.

i do kind of agree with TC's point underneath the rant. alot of programming books are simply sucky. they ease you along get to that next level generally classes and pointers which are notoriously difficult for new people to the field and gloss over them with overcomplicated explanations and that includes a boat load of new vocab. then move to the next chapter and expect you to of somehow mastered these two concepts when they did a piss poor job of explaining them to begin with. college is no better. kayoticdreamz

No one can write a respectable, read-once-and-move-on book. Everyone writes fifty-dollar jigsaw puzzle books with a sentence of explanation for words and topics then a five-chapter break and then that one-sentence topic used in a more complex way in the middle of an example about God-knows-what-kind-of mathematical generators with (for good measure) a few things thrown in that aren't, themselves, introduced until five chapters later.

And a carrot is dangled in front of my face, that if I read a minimum of five of these books I could maybe add a file or two to an open-source project unless I get a degree that involves level four calculus and algorithmic hinky-finky-binky.

Advanced computer science and programming are not for hobbyists unless they like teamwork or they grind their ass off because there is nothing in the world that is more enjoyable.

[QUOTE="c_moriarty"]

I wouldn't say it's self-pity, I would say I'm pointing out a lot of realistic things about reality which no one anywhere on the internet seems capable of doing. If you went to college for even eight years and now program geosynchronous spacecraft kernels, you're in the Twilight Zone or you have an I.Q. of 180. If you have been grinding on programming practically your whole life and are now capable of such things, it wasn't college, so no one has a reason to act like getting a degree has anything to do with what they do for a living, and if it does they couldn't do it in four years without being on a meth binge the entire time. Or it's ordinary and not extraordinary.

GabuEx

No, it absolutely is self-pity. You aren't just talking about programming and computer science. You said in no uncertain terms that you can't do anything. So, you know what, I'll believe you. Why not? I have no reason to doubt it. If you don't want me to believe you when you say you can't do anything, then you're more than welcome to prove me wrong. I'm not going to go out of my way to praise you or console you when you talk like that. I should know; I talked like that before and I know damn well I was just enjoying the attention that came with the sympathy people gave me. If you're serious about wanting to do something, then pull yourself up and do it. Simple as that. I'm not going to drag you to water and make you drink.

Well, I find it to be an amazing coincidence that everything has been hard work for me that has lead to nothing and that everyone else has things fall into their lap. It seems more likely to me that having everything fall into your lap would be very, very rare compared to having to work your ass off and have an aneurism at the age of forty to accomplish a great many things. And does anyone say so? No. So apparently they just don't give a damn about everyone else grinding themselves to death to do what they want to do and they just act like they coasted through everything and giggle about all the fun times. If there had been a lot of people telling me and made it very clear that computer science and programming was a pain in the ass and that you couldn't achieve anything personally without back-breaking effort years ago, I wouldn't have spent nearly as much time trying to learn it. I figured since everyone has nothing but stories of going to college for four years and doing whatever the hell they want with any computer they want whenever they want in whatever language they want that it must be one of the easiest things in the world to do and that it must be as fun five years after you start as it is the first day. But it's absolutely objectively a backbreaking chore to get anything done in computers, mathematics, programming, whatever.

[QUOTE="c_moriarty"]

I wouldn't say it's self-pity, I would say I'm pointing out a lot of realistic things about reality which no one anywhere on the internet seems capable of doing. If you went to college for even eight years and now program geosynchronous spacecraft kernels, you're in the Twilight Zone or you have an I.Q. of 180. If you have been grinding on programming practically your whole life and are now capable of such things, it wasn't college, so no one has a reason to act like getting a degree has anything to do with what they do for a living, and if it does they couldn't do it in four years without being on a meth binge the entire time. Or it's ordinary and not extraordinary.

GabuEx

No, it absolutely is self-pity. You aren't just talking about programming and computer science. You said in no uncertain terms that you can't do anything. So, you know what, I'll believe you. Why not? I have no reason to doubt it. If you don't want me to believe you when you say you can't do anything, then you're more than welcome to prove me wrong. I'm not going to go out of my way to praise you or console you when you talk like that. I should know; I talked like that before and I know damn well I was just enjoying the attention that came with the sympathy people gave me. If you're serious about wanting to do something, then pull yourself up and do it. Simple as that. I'm not going to drag you to water and make you drink.

And I have zero, zero, zero art talent. I hate math. I have to work my life away to learn how to do anything else. I'm going to get serious and pull myself up to what? Not art, not writing, not programming, not hardware. Coincidentally not one of these natural talents has illuminated my life. I have to grind and grind and work my life away to do anything. I was told in school, and by my whatever-its-called congeniality or comphrehension or whatever tests that I had some reasonable intelligence. If so, then it's extremely hard work to do anything and everyone acts like it's easy. If when I was younger everyone told me that every kind of knowledge in the world was a pain in the ass to come by, I would've relaxed more when the computer and television bonked me on the head with the giggle-happy mathematicians and fifteen-year-old government computer hackers wrench.

It's my personal opinion that incredibly intelligent people get giggles from doing advanced mathematics and engineering of whatever sort, and everyone else goes through miserable amounts of effort to make money.

And that almost no one anywhere can do anything but write jigsaw-puzzle books about anything.

And that I would have a lot of fun programming, if there were anything to do with it.

GabuEx, I don't want to use a reference book. I want to know what I know and have that be it. I don't want a seven-hundred page reference book by me unless it's for complex mathematical algorithms or something of that sort. If it has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with fundamental ideas and even the NASTY LITTLE DETAILS of the FUNDAMENTALS I want to know it, not have a book to tell me when I hit a dead end all the time or to tell me how I should be doing something every five minutes because the easier way makes security holes in the program or just isn't smart. So it takes a long time and it's all work and no fun. I read Thinking in C++ recently. Do I know every detail of it? Not really, I'll have to go back through it and read about when statics go conky and when to insert this instead of that. It's an 800 page book. That book, I guess it's just my memory and not the book. It's layed out well. Do I have a horrible memory? No. So it's just grinding and grinding and grinding. Then what can do when I memorize it? Nothing. I need to learn about a completely separate library and all of its details to really do something. Knowledge of C++ does not inherently create fun things to do. It gives you a way to do them. The fun things come with their own separate necessary knowledge, and it's random and chaotic and spread out over fifty-thousand branches and fields if it's very complex. If it isn't, I can't think of what it is. I started out thinking I could do a million things if I could program. Now, I can't even think of something I could add to an existing program that wouldn't take a lot of effort.

Everyone and everything acts like you learn a programming language and you program your computer and that's it, when in fact learning a programming language means absolutely nothing.

rant rant rant, if thats all your gonna do just stop, its getting boring. If you don't like programming, don't do it, its that simple. For some of us programming is a hobby and we do it in our time just for fun.

I can give a very simple example but I might get modded for it, if I could confirm with a mod I would.

Its the same as people that work on their cars, they don't do it because they have to, but as their hobby or just to learn something new. Now I know programming like im sure many people here, but I would never do it as a job, its just not for me.

Programming languages are also just like learning a 2nd or 3rd language, its hard at first but after awhile you can just guess words and methods in programming. Not every person knows everything, we all use other peoples help or in-built help once in awhile, and we as humans always like to learn, its just in our nature.

Yeah it does suck, but it requires dedication, and patience. I know I am going to have to do some programmim in the next few years as I am soon to become a sophomore in college with a major in computer engineering.

Yeah it does suck, but it requires dedication, and patience. I know I am going to have to do some programmim in the next few years as I am soon to become a sophomore in college with a major in computer engineering.

dortega120

What kind of math do you have to know?

It's a hobby for me, also... but it's frustrating and no one anywhere acts like it is.

I know a lot about C/C++, but I hate math, like I said, so I have to avoid it unless it's in a reference or well-explained, and then I'd have to have a real need to use it.

I'm a computer science major and a lot of the time the problem with the classes comes from the way they're taught and graded rather than the actual programming portions.

Having a random test script evaluate your work is the stupidest thing ever.

[QUOTE="JIT93"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

I'm going to assume you just got, or are currently getting your ass kicked in a computer science class.

while (true) {

System.out.println("U mad?");

}

I was going to do that in C++, but stupid HTML got all uptight and wouldn't let me.

Wasdie

I'm hoping your're trolling.

PHP is crap. JSPs or ASP.NET.

PHP cannot adapt to current demands. It's bogged down by complexity when trying to do anything robust, it's not fully object oriented, and it's far behind the times. Also you're limited to only web-based applications.

PHP = a dying language. You'll see tons of legacy support because so many websites use it. Sure it has pretty front-end features, but the backend is a complete nightmare for anything robust in features.

You just can't cope with it.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="i5750at4Ghz"] Might be true, I'm a CS major so I haven't spent much time looking into networking, I was think of switching to it a year ago, but I would have had to throw away far too many earned credits. Fact remains if you can find one it's alot of money for alot less work.i5750at4Ghz

You gotta define work.

I've worked several jobs that are 40-50 hours a week. Only one of which was a programming job, and that was an internship that ran out of work for me to do around week 8 of the 13 week internship. Talk about boring.

A career shouldn't ever feel like work and it should never be boring. I would gladly accept a challenge that made me work 50 hours a week if it never felt like work.

*At this moment, all of the electrical and mechanical engineers laugh and point at the programers for taking the wrong path down technology studies.*

Computer science is overly complex, full of bickering people, programming languages suck and so does computer science. No one can write a good book about any programming language and math is torturous and boring and nothing but memorizing lists of information and learning about anything to do with math, computer science, and programming languages sucks up massive amounts of time and leads absolutely nowhere.

c_moriarty

We'd all be living in the stone age if it wasn't for programmers. But don't get me wrong, I still value hardware designers over programmers.PS2_ROCKS

I'm a mathematician, and I don't know much about computer science. I wouldn't mind learning a programming language at some point, though. I've played around with Python a little bit.

Programming is tough stuff, no denying that. I can barely do anything in MATLAB, and that is supposed to be easy stuff.

Computer science is overly complex, full of bickering people, programming languages suck and so does computer science. No one can write a good book about any programming language and math is torturous and boring and nothing but memorizing lists of information and learning about anything to do with math, computer science, and programming languages sucks up massive amounts of time and leads absolutely nowhere.

c_moriarty

[QUOTE="JigglyWiggly_"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Simple huh?

How about you write me some sockets in C and encode them with a special algorithm and send a string of 1 million numbers between 3 servers, encyrpted, and decrypt them, and then seive out all of the primes.

Good god... the horror... THE HORROR!!!

i5750at4Ghz

As for Computer Science being terrible. It depends. It's taught terribly, but in practice it's a ton of fun, like a big brain teaser. They teach you syntax instead of logic, when honestly syntax is a google search away, but the actual logic can take you days/weeks to figure out. I find programming rather easy, it's the actual problem solving thats difficult. It's also impractical. In college you're writing complete programs alone, while in the real world that would rarely happen. You would most likely be working on certain aspects of functionality.

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"]i do kind of agree with TC's point underneath the rant. alot of programming books are simply sucky. they ease you along get to that next level generally classes and pointers which are notoriously difficult for new people to the field and gloss over them with overcomplicated explanations and that includes a boat load of new vocab. then move to the next chapter and expect you to of somehow mastered these two concepts when they did a piss poor job of explaining them to begin with. college is no better. c_moriarty

No one can write a respectable, read-once-and-move-on book. Everyone writes fifty-dollar jigsaw puzzle books with a sentence of explanation for words and topics then a five-chapter break and then that one-sentence topic used in a more complex way in the middle of an example about God-knows-what-kind-of mathematical generators with (for good measure) a few things thrown in that aren't, themselves, introduced until five chapters later.

Computer science is overly complex, full of bickering people, programming languages suck and so does computer science. No one can write a good book about any programming language and math is torturous and boring and nothing but memorizing lists of information and learning about anything to do with math, computer science, and programming languages sucks up massive amounts of time and leads absolutely nowhere.

c_moriarty

LOLUMAD? Cse kills yet another "I love video games, so I MUST love programming" hopeful. I love it.

If your CSE program doesn't have a 50%+ drop out rate, then they aren't teaching it right.

[QUOTE="c_moriarty"]

Computer science is overly complex, full of bickering people, programming languages suck and so does computer science. No one can write a good book about any programming language and math is torturous and boring and nothing but memorizing lists of information and learning about anything to do with math, computer science, and programming languages sucks up massive amounts of time and leads absolutely nowhere.

UltimoIce

LOLUMAD? Cse kills yet another "I love video games, so I MUST love programming" hopeful. I love it.

If your CSE program doesn't have a 50%+ drop out rate, then they aren't teaching it right.

HOLLLLLAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love watching people fail.

I would love it if I took a programming class.

I'd pick up a book and learn myself but I am not that disciplined.

[QUOTE="Mr_Cumberdale"]Although CS can be annoying at times (like troubleshooting), it the end it's pretty 'simple'. You just have to plan out things. It can take a while before you are used to thinking in a programming way.Wasdie

Simple huh?

How about you write me some sockets in C and encode them with a special algorithm and send a string of 1 million numbers between 3 servers, encyrpted, and decrypt them, and then seive out all of the primes.

Good god... the horror... THE HORROR!!!

Oh god thats practically my next project ;/ networking and the internet is so complicated

Only thing awful about programming are the #$@#$$ F@#$nut professors, who believe dropping six+ homeworks and programs on students during finals is a good way to curve the grade.

I remember when I was just beginning programming(And I've seen other people also do this), a lot of what I did was instead of thinking first how write a program on paper using pseudo code I would just wing it and program as I went along. That approach was maybe fine for the earlier level classes when all they gave you was programs that didn't require more than 100 lines of code, but come later courses where it's required to do semester projects that are thousands of lines of code it's an absolute nightmare programming that way.

So it really is vitally important to build a foundation of good habits for programming early in your career otherwise you are going to have one hell of time trying to pass classes that have professors who are anally retentive when it comes to code.

Well, I'm sure I've found the best two languages.

Haskell and C++.

8)

Stop using a computer, then. I don't like them, but at least I appreciate the usefulness of programing, and also the people who take the time to learn that stuff.

I haven't touched the book I had to buy for class since late feb and I haven't had any trouble understanding the coure material. Maybe you should have never picked computer science as your major?

I'm going to assume you just got, or are currently getting your ass kicked in a computer science class.

while (true) {

System.out.println("U mad?");

}

I was going to do that in C++, but stupid HTML got all uptight and wouldn't let me.

Wasdie

Stop using a computer, then. I don't like them, but at least I appreciate the usefulness of programing, and also the people who take the time to learn that stuff.

ColonelVodka

I WANTED TO TAKE COMPUTER SCIENCE IN COLLEGE AND WHAT IS THIS?

I'm kind of scared now, being only a sophomore in high school. ;_;

Computer science is overly complex, full of bickering people, programming languages suck and so does computer science. No one can write a good book about any programming language and math is torturous and boring and nothing but memorizing lists of information and learning about anything to do with math, computer science, and programming languages sucks up massive amounts of time and leads absolutely nowhere.

c_moriarty

[QUOTE="c_moriarty"]

Computer science is overly complex, full of bickering people, programming languages suck and so does computer science. No one can write a good book about any programming language and math is torturous and boring and nothing but memorizing lists of information and learning about anything to do with math, computer science, and programming languages sucks up massive amounts of time and leads absolutely nowhere.

lightleggy

Like I said, everyone always told me that they learned a programming language or two and programmed. They didn't.

Common Lisp, C++, Haskell. The best, in my opinion.

the bad thing about programming is that you have to explain everything in a simple way.Its like talking to a 5 year old.Nothing is self-explanatory.And thats why i would never get into programming,i like to be able to function like i do in my everyday life not having to "think" in a very primary way for a dumb computer:P