Cop Shoots Unarmed Man Reaching For His License

I'm sorry to offend,but you Americans are totally gun stupid.If the average American uses his/her BRAIN as much as you use your guns,you'll probably solve a lot of your country's/world problems.

@lamprey263: Hence why I said that if you add in the fact that the target and the guy with the gun were moving erratically and the stress of the situation hitting 1/5 is damn good.

People have this insane idea that weapons are easy to shoot. Fact is that even trained cops are still just shooting stationary targets in a low stress environment. So while their accuracy would be a little better than the average person, adding in just a single variable(ie erratically moving target) changes the outcome greatly. Now add a few more variables and accuracy drops exponentially.

Again, this isn't Call of Duty. You have completely unrealistic expectations of what shooting a gun is really like.

The percentage is irrelevant, what matters is the NUMBER of these kinds of incidents.Innocent people are hurt due to worker incompetence all the time, and there's only so much room for big stories.

Yeah, but you're making it sound like this is a news piece about a construction worker who dropped a brick on somebody's head, or a mechanic who fucked up the repair and sent the car to the owner with no breaks. This wasn't an accident, this wasn't negligence...this was someone who acted with purpose.

Then congratulations on living in a country where nothing interesting ever happens. The story here is "cop shot an unarmed man, got fired, faces criminal charges." If you guys manage to stretch that out "for weeks", then you guys must REALLY be desperate for something to report. How would you even stretch this out for weeks? By printing the same story over and over again? What else is there to say about this that hasn't already been said?

@MrGeezer: Congratulation accepted, and I'm very happy with the fact =D Yeah, we don't have many interesting news going on, so we just get news of shit you guys do over there.

Shows you how precious human life is in the US.

He thought the dude was going for a gun, he got scared, he acted inappropriately. In other words, he fucked up.

You're making it sound like he was just looking for an opportunity to shoot a dude, which I admit would actually be bigger news than this. But negligence happens all the time, people get hurt as a result of it all the time, and there simply isn't much to talk about when those responsible are held accountable. Again, I'd like to ask what else there exists to say about this story. The results of the negligence weren't particularly spectacular. They amount to "guy got shot and lived" in a country where THOUSANDS of people get shot every year. Even from an "OMG, that's so bad" perspective, the discussion just leads to "yep, sure is bad. Glad he got fired and is getting charged. Can you pass me the donuts and the sport section?" Aside from a later update on whether or not the guy got convicted, what exactly is there to add to this story? How is a story this simple and concise supposed to dominate the national consciousness for weeks? Is there something ambiguous about this story?

I'd argue him running from the suspect like Monty Python after the battle with the bunny is sloppy technique and yes still call that sloppy horrible shooting, I'm still fine calling that bad shooting, and I made no mention of Call of Duty, that's you projecting. I'd hardly call the target erratic either, he was in the door, when the officer fired he was out of the door, after the cop moved behind the car he stumbled back with his hands up and couldn't have been a wider target. I don't see why you take such issue, you think it was you who miss with the fervent defense you're putting up.

But that's exactly my point! Here it would be in the news for weeks (every time a new witness showed up it would be in the news, whenever they went to court it would be on the news, every time the family of the guy who got shot wanted to give an interview it would be on the news) because something like that is extremely rare!

You say "They amount to 'guy got shot and lived' in a country where THOUSANDS of people get shot every year" like that makes it ok, and even go and say that's it's not shocking. To me, that kind of attitude IS shocking and concerns me. Now you can think whatever you want of me, think I'm an American hater or whatever, but if I didn't care we wouldn't be having this conversation. I just can't help but be baffled by people casually dropping statistics of thousands of people being shot like they're talking about how many people prefer white bread over brown bread...

It also confused me how a guy who is so concerned about a baby turtle (hope that goes well for you,btw!) acts so nonchalant about people's lives (apologies for the over-generalization). Is it a "if it's not happening in front of me it doesn't matter" situation?

@lamprey263: Just trying to educate a little bit is all. You are right, I am projecting things on you. However, am I wrong in doing so?

At any rate. It is what it is. Cop got his just desserts. Guy will get a fantastic settlement.

This has nothing to do with PTSD. It has everything to do with being safe. If I pull someone over I have no idea what they're capable of unless I'm acting on some kind of prior knowledge(APB, BOLO, etc). The way you act very much determines how I'm going to react. I'm not going to die just because I don't know what you're pulling out of your car. Nor am I going to shoot you unless I see that you actually have a weapon. That's why I've been saying that this cop was in the wrong. He shot without even waiting to see what the guy was getting.

I keep my drivers license in my wallet. Many people do the same thing.

You're taking that last bit out of context. An opinion of what should be done is irrelevant when I actually have training and experience that tells me to do otherwise. Training that is supported by every state and federal law enforcement agency.

this guy was apparently trained by morons

@airshocker: Perhaps you're right and I'm just incapable of understanding your reality. Like I said, last time a cop asked to see my driver's license, he leaned over my car with his back turned to me while I reached for the glove compartment. Never in a million years would I even think a cop would draw on me or get startled by me reaching for something (especially when he asked me to get it) nor would he think I'd pull a knife on him for asking for my license (which again, was demonstrated by him having his back turned).

As for the last bit, training determines your skills, not your actions.

He didn't. The time of day has nothing to do with the capability of someone to reach into their vehicle and pull out a weapon. I'm not sure where you were trying to go with that line of argumentation. Then don't reach into your car without telling the officer first. Of course this wasn't just about him reaching into the car, this was about his body language as he spun to reach inside. If I was standing at your passenger side window and you were reaching into your glove box to get your registration you wouldn't have a gun drawn on you. It's all about subject action.

Yes, it means you are prepared, not that you will shoot. It's a compliance technique. A person has to react in very specific ways for me to use deadly force on them. So specific that in my five years of being a police office I've not had to shoot anybody. My training says you are wrong. And so far it's kept me alive. My training tells me that if I BELIEVE someone may cause me harm, I'm allowed to take some form of action. Without seeing what that person is capable of(because he's reached into his car) I'm allowed to draw my weapon and get ready to use it. What I'm not allowed to do is shoot him without seeing what he has in his hands.

That is why this cop is fired. He didn't do his job properly.

I think he's arguing that if it was night time and the visibility was reduced, the officer would have more reason to feel threatened by the possibility that he wouldn't be able to immediately recognise what the man reached for but since it was day time it shouldn't be the case. (Not saying I'm in favour or against this line of thinking, just stating what I THINK he meant...I might be wrong.

Not sure why that's shocking or concerning to you, considering your comment that it would be big news over there because it's rare. The news is entertainment. Just like how a lot of bands get their 15 minutes of fame and are then pushed aside to make room for the next hot thing, big stories have to hold the public's interest. And without some kind of debate or ambiguity or wide-reaching ramifications, stories tend to fall off the radar pretty quickly when there's nothing to add to the story.

Now, as you mentioned, I guess they could try to manufacture interest. They could periodically bring the victim's or the cop's family on TV in an attempt to stretch the story out as long as possible. But I actually think that's one of the shittier and uglier aspects of journalism. The vast majority of the time when that happens, the person has nothing relevant to add to the story. So what happens is that in addition to being stressed out by the event itself, those families get dragged into the media circus for the explicit purpose of getting ratings. I'd ask what we actually learn about the story by constantly hearing the families giving interviews. How many witnesses do we actually need to hear from when it's already so apparent that the cop was in the wrong? Again, what is that actually adding to the story, what new insights are those providing?

I think you think some things are commonplace when they really aren't. For instance, the only time I've had to draw my weapon in a traffic stop was when a lady was leaning into her backseat rummaging through a bag. That set off alarm bells in my head. I told her to stop, to take her hands out slowly and get out of the car. She was high on something and thought she would just pull up her insurance on her laptop screen. I've pulled over hundreds of people with none of them ever requiring me to draw my gun.

I don't turn my back on anybody.

Training is supposed to determine your actions.

@MrGeezer: Those are actually very good questions, and to be honest I don't know because I don't bother watching the news for most part but I would assume that the over-exposition of something like is is due to people wanting to know how something like this could even happen. Common things to one person can be completely baffling and absurd for another.

@airshocker: But see, that's what I'm talking about...that situation would never cause me to feel alarmed, especially if she was doing so upon my request.

And again, I disagree with your last sentence, but to each his/her own, I guess. For me I've done martial arts for years, which eventually led me to get some security jobs (sometimes you just need that extra money =P) and in both cases I was instructed on what I was or wasn't allowed to do, not in how I was supposed to proceed, so that I would have more options to adapt to situations. I've approached shady people trespassing and just skulking around, never felt like I needed to reach for anything for my own safety. My martial arts wouldn't do shit if a guy drew a gun on me from 20 feet away, but I never felt like I needed to worry that someone would even own a gun.

You talk about me confusing a few incidents with something that is widespread, and maybe that is so, but the fact is that here cops turn their back on you without a care in the world and you just told me you drew a gun on someone who turned out to be reaching for her laptop. I get what you're saying, you need to feel safe, but apparently cops over here feel a lot safer than over there.

But that's not what I asked her to do. I asked her for her license, registration and insurance. None of which requires her to go into her backseat and rummage through her backpack. If it did, she has to tell me that.

When you don't have guns to worry about then it's a different story. You can be naive and be okay. I can't be naive because I don't know who does or doesn't have a weapon on them. Nor am I going to take the chance. I have too many video games to play, books to read and things I want to do with my life to get myself killed putting my trust in someone I shouldn't have.

That's their prerogative, man. I'm not sure what that has to do with me. I'm fine with doing a dangerous job if that means more freedom for my fellow citizens.

@airshocker: But I'm not trying to make this about you; you just happen to be a PO. My initial point is that it's unfortunate that this is a reality you guys have to endure and even more unfortunate that it has become such a commonplace thing that people just shrug these incidents off. In your particular case it's unfortunate that you feel so unsafe in the mere job of pulling people over (by far the safest police work except maybe parking tickets) that people need to tell you why they are reaching into a bag.

This whole "keep your ID in your wallet or get capped by the police" line holds no water. Christ, there are so many arbitrary cardinal rules for dealing with police, you'd think some one would write an instructional book on it already. There could be some money in that.

Probably just talk to them like they're blind, if they can hear you over all the shouting. "Now since I was requested to get my driver's license, I am complying by reaching into my pocket where my ID is...just in case you think I have a gun I will grab the driver's license, take it out of my pocket just enough for you to see it's not a gun, then drop it on floor, take a few steps back, turn around, get on my knees and put my hands behind my back. Then you will have plenty of time to check my ID"

This has gotten beyond ridiculous.

People are fucking terrified of cops now and for good reason, you want to do everything you can to prevent a run in with the law.

next time you see a cop at all, just lay down on your face and put your hands behind your back, might spook him otherwise

I believe this particular cop is actually facing charges, but it was just a TyT video. I hope he does and gets convicted though.

Wow, just wow.

Thank god the cop couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from ten feet.

Who is saying that?

I saw the video on news the other day. Wow just wow. From what I could see and hear the guy in car was calm and polite even after being shot. That cop was extremely jumpy and trigger happy it looked like.

Good to see he's been fired and will stand trial. We shouldn't need to live in a society wear any movement from someone could end up with a cop shooting them. We don't need knee jerk action triggy happy cops.

And I just have one more thing to add. I don't know what motivated this specific cop to do this, but recently I've been seeing a disturbing "**** the police" sentiment (even moreso than normal), and I've already stated that that attitude is going to lead to more of these kinds of incidents.

Two things need to happen. Non-cops need to drop this "**** the police" attitude, and police departments need to stop protecting officers who **** up on the job. The former gives police the impression that the rest of the world is out to get them, and the latter gives the rest of the world the impression that cops are just out to get us. But the bottom line is that this presents the notion that cops and non-cops are on opposing sides. And that's a disastrous fucking mentality to be perpetuated, unless we want more of this kind of shit happening. The job of the police is to protect and serve, the vast majority of cops are doing exactly that, and no one needs to lose sight of that. The majority of non-cops don't hate cops, and cops need to keep that in mind. Cops and non-cops are NOT on opposing sides, we're on the same team, the police are there to serve us, and most of them are doing a great job of it, and most people appreciate that they are doing a great job at it. The second that cops and non-cops start seeing the other as the enemy is the second that shit like this is gonna start happening a lot more often.

Someone previously brought up the question, "how could something like this happen?" Well, I'm not privy to the cop's thoughts, but if I had to wager money on it, I'd bet on him being scared. Fear often makes people do really stupid shit. And we don't need a situation in which police have an irrational fear of non-police, and non-police have an irrational fear of the police. That kind of fear leads to people making stupid decisions that end up getting people killed. What to do to stop (or at least reduce this)?

1) Police departments need to stop protecting officers who **** up.

2) Non-cops need to stop jumping the gun and using any apparent instance of police misconduct to further an anti-cop agenda before there's even been time for an investigation to take place.

@MrGeezer: I approve of your last post; well said. The blame never rests solely on one side. As for the "how could something like this happen" comment, I meant it more on the general view of things...as a European it's hard for me to understand how the situation has degenerated to a point where a police officer feels scared the moment a civilian's hands disappear from his line of sight. It's a shitty and severely tense reality to live in for both civilian and police, never knowing if they're having a perfectly normal conversation and all of a sudden one of them is going to end up dead.

I really hope that you guys manage to find a way to overcome this problem, since I'm sure there's bigger problems to be solved (not a criticism against America, but I'm sure every country has problems other than the fear of getting shot every time you leave the house...as isolated as these incidents might be, fear and mistrust spread quickly)

The guy was a douchebag and turned around so quickly like a f**king idiot, If I was a cop, I would assumed there's a high chance he's pulling out a gun as well. The cop made a mistake but what he was really assuming was that the guy was going to pull out his drivers license out of his pocket from his wallet like a normal human being. They both fucked up. There was no reason to spin around as fast as that guy did.

The man who got shot should have known better and simply not gone to the gas station if he wanted to avoid this situation. And don't give me any malarkey about how "He had his hands up", he was clearly calling his homies for help to take down this poor, innocent cop. Good thing the oh so valiant officer took him down before the savage ghetto dwellers got to him.

It's a shame how the US sympathizes with violent thugs like this who only live to collect jordans and murder law enforcement.

The only thing stopping a bad cop with a gun is a good cop with a gun.

or just better training and standards, not just hiring willing high school dropouts

Police departments don't hire high school dropouts.

I find that hard to believe considering all the stories you hear of cops that are morons. The TSA has appalling standards as well. Regardless, the training these guys get doesn't seem to be good enough. Which is even worse when you realize being a cop isn't even in the top 10 of most dangerous jobs.

The TSA isn't a police force. It's a security apparatus. All police officers in the United States must have a bachelors degree, or a certain amount of years of military experience. They also require high school diplomas, so even those who got into the military with a GED can't become police officers.

A lot of people are morons. A high school diploma, or a bachelors degree, is not a guarantee of intelligence.

maybe time to make guns illegal

cops have insecurities too, if everyone had guns where i live, I would be a trigger happy cop as well.

Maybe it's time for you to just stop making stupid posts.

stupid how, am I wrong?

You're always wrong. Firstly, you're being irrational when it comes to guns. Secondly, most cops are not trigger happy. Most cops haven't even shot their weapons at a person.

So yes, you are stupid and wrong.

I took the liberty of finishing the argument, since no argument was articulated. So you keep your ID in your pocket. That's nice but, what are we to learn from this?

You finished nothing because nobody even knows what you're talking about. Not a single person in this thread has defended the cop for shooting this guy. So what the hell are you talking about?

Don't speak for others. And you didn't answer the question; what was the point of mentioning your ID storing habits? You mentioned that you keep your drivers license in your wallet. Many people do the same thing. Again, that's nice but...what is your point?

I'll speak for others when it's exceedingly obvious where everyone stands.

Are you joking...? I mentioned my ID storing habits because I was trying to show the user I was talking to why a cop might think a person is going for something in their car.

And the indictment falls upon who exactly?

What indictment? What in god's name are you talking about?