[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]I do not think that prison is a good place to be.The_Last_Ridewell here in norway it seems to be that way:? I thought Norway was like the happiest country in the world..or maybe it was Sweden.
Do criminals have it too easy in prison?
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[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]Actually prison is a form of criminal punishment. It is not meant to heal criminals, it is meant to deter people from committing crimes. Rehabilitation is more in corrections, rehab facilities, etc... And since it is a way of punishment, I have to disagree with you about the extra commodities. Imprisonment can further the goals of both deterrence (general or specific) and rehabilitation, among other things. Other goals include incapacitation and just deserts.Prison is not meant to be a punishment, but a rehabilitation centre. Having access to television and internet is a little much to be honest. Criminals aren't put in jail to be "punished," but to be given the idea that what they did was wrong, and to turn them into productive members of society. You can't do that unless you give them access to some resources that allow them to learn new skills and grow as individuals.
hodges_3_5
[QUOTE="hodges_3_5"][QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]Actually prison is a form of criminal punishment. It is not meant to heal criminals, it is meant to deter people from committing crimes. Rehabilitation is more in corrections, rehab facilities, etc... And since it is a way of punishment, I have to disagree with you about the extra commodities. Imprisonment can further the goals of both deterrence (general or specific) and rehabilitation, among other things. Other goals include incapacitation and just deserts. Oh ok. My corrections professor told us it was an act of deterrence. Can you explain how it is rehab? Because I do not see how they help "fix" people in prison.Prison is not meant to be a punishment, but a rehabilitation centre. Having access to television and internet is a little much to be honest. Criminals aren't put in jail to be "punished," but to be given the idea that what they did was wrong, and to turn them into productive members of society. You can't do that unless you give them access to some resources that allow them to learn new skills and grow as individuals.
Elraptor
[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]Actually prison is a form of criminal punishment. It is not meant to heal criminals, it is meant to deter people from committing crimes. Rehabilitation is more in corrections, rehab facilities, etc... And since it is a way of punishment, I have to disagree with you about the extra commodities.Prison is not meant to be a punishment, but a rehabilitation centre. Having access to television and internet is a little much to be honest. Criminals aren't put in jail to be "punished," but to be given the idea that what they did was wrong, and to turn them into productive members of society. You can't do that unless you give them access to some resources that allow them to learn new skills and grow as individuals.
hodges_3_5
If that's the case, then that shows just how ****ed up our system is. That we send people away for the sole purpose of "punishing them", and all the while KNOWING that they're probably going to be even more of a threat when they inevitably get released in a few years.
It's one thing if we're talking about people sentenced to life or capital punishment. But ANYONE sentenced to prison for a shorter amount of time should at least be eligible for attempts at rehabilitation. If the prison sentence is absolutely nothing more than a 5 year session of "time out" in which they hang out with criminals and learn how to get better at committing crimes, then what's the point? Giving prisoners an education is GOOD. If you let a prisoner get an education in prison, then when he gets out he at least MIGHT have an incentive to not go right back to crime. But if he ends up being worse off when he gets out and can't find a job anywhere, then of course he's gonna go right back to committing crimes.
Actually prison is a form of criminal punishment. It is not meant to heal criminals, it is meant to deter people from committing crimes. Rehabilitation is more in corrections, rehab facilities, etc... And since it is a way of punishment, I have to disagree with you about the extra commodities.[QUOTE="hodges_3_5"][QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]
Prison is not meant to be a punishment, but a rehabilitation centre. Having access to television and internet is a little much to be honest. Criminals aren't put in jail to be "punished," but to be given the idea that what they did was wrong, and to turn them into productive members of society. You can't do that unless you give them access to some resources that allow them to learn new skills and grow as individuals.
MrGeezer
If that's the case, then that shows just how ****ed up our system is. That we send people away for the sole purpose of "punishing them", and all the while KNOWING that they're probably going to be even more of a threat when they inevitably get released in a few years.
It's one thing if we're talking about people sentenced to life or capital punishment. But ANYONE sentenced to prison for a shorter amount of time should at least be eligible for attempts at rehabilitation. If the prison sentence is absolutely nothing more than a 5 year session of "time out" in which they hang out with criminals and learn how to get better at committing crimes, then what's the point? Giving prisoners an education is GOOD. If you let a prisoner get an education in prison, then when he gets out he at least MIGHT have an incentive to not go right back to crime. But if he ends up being worse off when he gets out and can't find a job anywhere, then of course he's gonna go right back to committing crimes.
I agree with all that you said. But honestly, punishment/rehab has been a problem for forever. No one can seem to agree on proper punishment. There has not been a system created that is perfect by any means. Which makes it hard because then it seems like its either one or the other.[QUOTE="hodges_3_5"][QUOTE="Elraptor"] Imprisonment can further the goals of both deterrence (general or specific) and rehabilitation, among other things. Other goals include incapacitation and just deserts.ElraptorOh ok. My corrections professor told us it was an act of deterrence. Can you explain how it is rehab? Because I do not see how they help "fix" people in prison. Well, in a sense I agree with your prof. It's true deterrence is one perceived purpose of imprisonment. Moreover, some judges and sentencing experts say that imprisonment is not a logical sentence if the only goal of sentencing is rehabilitation of the offender. Just sticking someone in a cage will not rehabilitate him, or at least it probably won't do much to prevent recidivism once he gets out. But many correctional programs in the U.S. include rehabilitative programs, at least for certain types of offenders, e.g., those involved with drugs or sex crimes. The sentence of imprisonment serves not merely to confine the offender but also to ensure he or she takes the first step in getting help. As a practical matter, it can also be a motivation--a reward for completing the program may be a reduction of sentence.
That makes sense. But one problem with that, is that people have to want to be fixed for it to work. And honestly how many people that go to jail do you think want or think they need to be fixed?
I kinda want to go to prison now. I'm having second thoughts... thanks a lot!
Ya, let's take away all the things that facilitate them them not going back to prison...... Vocational education, in particular, helps inmates land jobs and not have to turn to crime after release. I do think the use of "entertainment" items should be limited and be more of a reward for good behavior though.Mafiree
Yeah, entertainment is far less necessary, and should always be treated as a "privelege, not a right".
I understand giving prisoners certain forms of entertainment. That can keep them calm and docile and give them other things to think about instead of who to rape/beat/shank. And as I said before, it is dangerous as hell for prison guards. They are heavily outnumbered by dangerous and often violent felons, and it's easy for things to get out of control. If at least giving the prisoners "reasonable" and "fair" privileges helps to keep the prisoners less likely to be in a constant state of wanting to riot, then it's worth it.
However, as you stated, this stuff HAS to be seen as a reward. As a privilege that's earned for good behavior, but that is NOT a right. The second that prisoners start seeing this kind of stuff as a "right" is the second that it needs to be taken away. Because it's one thing to provide fair and reasonable rewards for good behavior. But when prisoners start thinking that they are OWED this kind of stuff, then they feel like they're in control. And that's baaaaad.
Anyway, yes...I'm not saying that every prisoner should be given a TV with free HBO. I'm not saying that every criminal should be forced into being rehabilitated. But rehabilitation efforts should be available for any criminal who shows the desire to be rehabilitated. And entertainment privileges should be provided (at a reasonable level) for the prisoners who earn such privileges.
This stuff isn't there just to make people complain about how prisoners are being coddled. It's there for a good reason. Providing incentives for good behavior and rehabilitation encourages good behavior and rehabilitation. It can also make prisons safer for the people who have the extremely dangerous job of working in prisons. And I'm all for that.
I'm also not saying that this kind of stuff is never improperly applied. I'm not saying that some prisoners don't get luxuries that they really have no business getting. But that's getting into specific cases, whereas I'm talking about generalities.
I think they just put that stuff in there so they dont just go insane and kill themselves or each other or if they get out to have like insane culture shock and not be able to deal with it. There have been alot of people that kind of went nuts after going to prison for like 20 years and the world had changed so much and they knew nothing about it that they couldn't really handle it.
Well, in a sense I agree with your prof. It's true deterrence is one perceived purpose of imprisonment. Moreover, some judges and sentencing experts say that imprisonment is not a logical sentence if the only goal of sentencing is rehabilitation of the offender. Just sticking someone in a cage will not rehabilitate him, or at least it probably won't do much to prevent recidivism once he gets out. But many correctional programs in the U.S. include rehabilitative programs, at least for certain types of offenders, e.g., those involved with drugs or sex crimes. The sentence of imprisonment serves not merely to confine the offender but also to ensure he or she takes the first step in getting help. As a practical matter, it can also be a motivation--a reward for completing the program may be a reduction of sentence.[QUOTE="Elraptor"][QUOTE="hodges_3_5"] Oh ok. My corrections professor told us it was an act of deterrence. Can you explain how it is rehab? Because I do not see how they help "fix" people in prison.hodges_3_5
That makes sense. But one problem with that, is that people have to want to be fixed for it to work. And honestly how many people that go to jail do you think want or think they need to be fixed?
You're absolutely right that you can't force people to change how they think about themselves and others. That's true both inside and outside prison. At best, imprisonment may push people (literally or as a reward motivation) to take the first step, whether that be listening to a therapist, completing exercises, talking about their problems, etc.Well, in a sense I agree with your prof. It's true deterrence is one perceived purpose of imprisonment. Moreover, some judges and sentencing experts say that imprisonment is not a logical sentence if the only goal of sentencing is rehabilitation of the offender. Just sticking someone in a cage will not rehabilitate him, or at least it probably won't do much to prevent recidivism once he gets out. But many correctional programs in the U.S. include rehabilitative programs, at least for certain types of offenders, e.g., those involved with drugs or sex crimes. The sentence of imprisonment serves not merely to confine the offender but also to ensure he or she takes the first step in getting help. As a practical matter, it can also be a motivation--a reward for completing the program may be a reduction of sentence.[QUOTE="Elraptor"][QUOTE="hodges_3_5"] Oh ok. My corrections professor told us it was an act of deterrence. Can you explain how it is rehab? Because I do not see how they help "fix" people in prison.hodges_3_5
That makes sense. But one problem with that, is that people have to want to be fixed for it to work. And honestly how many people that go to jail do you think want or think they need to be fixed?
Great point, and very true. As is well known by most, you CAN'T help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.
I am 100% in support of giving lots of opportunities and privileges to prisoners who actually show a desire to change. If they truly demonstrate that they WANT to be helped, then society is better off by giving them that help. This shouldn't even be a question, this should be obvious.
However, as you said, not everyone in prison wants to change. Many of them will NEVER change, and resist the very idea of change. If someone shows no interest in learning a trade in order to better themselves after being released, then we shouldn't waste their time on them. Sure, some people ARE destined to go right back to crime as soon as they get released, but I'm not sure that prisons really can do much for them. Coddle them, and prison seems too much like a vacation. Punish them harshly enough, and they'll even be more of a threat once they get released. That's a more difficult question. That's a fine line between screwing up one way, vs screwing up by going the other way. I'm not sure exactly where that fine line lies, and I'm not sure what needs to be done to the people who don't want help.
I'm just saying that for the people who DO demonstrate a desire to better themselves, these sorts of privileges should be available for everyone. They should still be "privileges" that are subject to be taken away at any time. But for the people who demonstrate a real and genuine desire to want to turn their lives around, these kinds of privileges should absolutely be available without question.
I can complain all I want about how some prisoner is getting a free education while I had to pay for my stuff. Whatever, I don't care. I have to pay for all of my education, while prisoners are in ****ing prison. I still think I get the better deal. And if giving a prisoner a scholarship is going to keep him from stabbing my ass in a mall parking lot, then ****ing give him the scholarship.
[QUOTE="hodges_3_5"]
[QUOTE="Elraptor"] Well, in a sense I agree with your prof. It's true deterrence is one perceived purpose of imprisonment. Moreover, some judges and sentencing experts say that imprisonment is not a logical sentence if the only goal of sentencing is rehabilitation of the offender. Just sticking someone in a cage will not rehabilitate him, or at least it probably won't do much to prevent recidivism once he gets out. But many correctional programs in the U.S. include rehabilitative programs, at least for certain types of offenders, e.g., those involved with drugs or sex crimes. The sentence of imprisonment serves not merely to confine the offender but also to ensure he or she takes the first step in getting help. As a practical matter, it can also be a motivation--a reward for completing the program may be a reduction of sentence. MrGeezer
That makes sense. But one problem with that, is that people have to want to be fixed for it to work. And honestly how many people that go to jail do you think want or think they need to be fixed?
Great point, and very true. As is well known by most, you CAN'T help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.
I am 100% in support of giving lots of opportunities and privileges to prisoners who actually show a desire to change. If they truly demonstrate that they WANT to be helped, then society is better off by giving them that help. This shouldn't even be a question, this should be obvious.
However, as you said, not everyone in prison wants to change. Many of them will NEVER change, and resist the very idea of change. If someone shows no interest in learning a trade in order to better themselves after being released, then we shouldn't waste their time on them. Sure, some people ARE destined to go right back to crime as soon as they get released, but I'm not sure that prisons really can do much for them. Coddle them, and prison seems too much like a vacation. Punish them harshly enough, and they'll even be more of a threat once they get released. That's a more difficult question. That's a fine line between screwing up one way, vs screwing up by going the other way. I'm not sure exactly where that fine line lies, and I'm not sure what needs to be done to the people who don't want help.
I'm just saying that for the people who DO demonstrate a desire to better themselves, these sorts of privileges should be available for everyone. They should still be "privileges" that are subject to be taken away at any time. But for the people who demonstrate a real and genuine desire to want to turn their lives around, these kinds of privileges should absolutely be available without question.
I can complain all I want about how some prisoner is getting a free education while I had to pay for my stuff. Whatever, I don't care. I have to pay for all of my education, while prisoners are in ****ing prison. I still think I get the better deal. And if giving a prisoner a scholarship is going to keep him from stabbing my ass in a mall parking lot, then ****ing give him the scholarship.
Lol. I agree. It does suck that we pay for all of their commodities while they are in jail, when they put themselves there, but at least they're not around us causing more trouble...until they get out. "Let's rob and steal from all the people that feed me and support me in jail!"I think alot of it depends on circumstances, for example i'm not someone who is a believer in punishment by death unless it's some horrible and totally un-redeemable offense that was comitted. And generally i try to believe in second chances being given to those who work hard, and show motivation to better themselves.But for those who have no motivation to change, or even better themselves then they shouldn't be given better treatment. But the prison system is beyond corrupt
Here where i live, criminals have tv, internet, pc. They can do free education and have good cells to be in. Are we too nice to criminals today, or are we helping them for a second chance when they get out?
The_Last_Ride
that kind of defeats the purpose now doesnt. although there is a great documentry called the war on kids that compares prisons to schools mind you the prisons are better equipt.
Considering the kind of people criminals have to be with, whether in their cells, outside, or in the showers, I'm sure it's not as great as it may look...
If they have internet in their cells I heavily disagree with that, TVs I can understand, but they should definitely have access to books and education.....but also have to earn the privilege. Possibly internet usage in the library if on good behavior.Here where i live, criminals have tv, internet, pc. They can do free education and have good cells to be in. Are we too nice to criminals today, or are we helping them for a second chance when they get out?
The_Last_Ride
As for it being easy in prison.....I don't care if you're in a gang or something else, you're surrounded by convicted muderers, rapists, and scum. Not an easy situation to be in.
I say criminals have it too hard, but thats because I don't believe criminals should basically be put in a 2x4 space for eternity to rot. I think they should be rehabilitated, taught, etc so that when they get out they can become productive members of society. Punishing a hardened criminal isn't going to stop him from doing it again, in alot of cases it just ends up that the criminal got connections in prison and has a better way of being a criminal when he gets out.
I'm sure it varies but my uncle was in prison and I remember him once commenting on the TV there. "No sound, and we got maybe a half hour of TV a day and it was whatever the guards felt like watching at the time."
If they have internet in their cells I heavily disagree with that, TVs I can understand, but they should definitely have access to books and education.....but also have to earn the privilege. Possibly internet usage in the library if on good behavior.[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]
Here where i live, criminals have tv, internet, pc. They can do free education and have good cells to be in. Are we too nice to criminals today, or are we helping them for a second chance when they get out?
Rekunta
As for it being easy in prison.....I don't care if you're in a gang or something else, you're surrounded by convicted muderers, rapists, and scum. Not an easy situation to be in.
I agree with this 100%. If they're on good behavior then they should get things like TV and internet and other rewards (otherwise, why coperate and be good?) and education has to be available to them, far as I'm concerned. I'm pretty sure they do NOT have TV/Internet in the cells but in a rec room.
If we treat prisoners like scum, they'll be back in a few months. The Danes and Finns focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment and the number of prisoners per capita is a lot lower in those countries than in countries that only use prisons as a punishment system because the sentences are shorter but re-offends also fewer.RK-Marayeah, but you can't treat criminals as they haven't done anything wrong either
on the contrary, i'd take away the tv and drastically choke upload abilities. (enough you can't run pretty much anything except request page, get page through download. so no chat, no cameras, etc etc)I'd get rid of the Internet, but otherwise I don't think your system is that lenient. Prisoners need an education too, and it's not like they can make any college money behind bars. . .
Theokhoth
Another problem with the US prison system is that we put people with minor crimes in to the same prisons as gang bangers, killers, drug sellers, etc. They're going to come out screwed up no matter what.
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