Do we have free will?

Yep, this is gonna be about Determinism Vs Free Will.

I'm not sure, I like to think that I do have free will but sometimes life forces you into some direction, the direction that you have no choice but to follow, except for, of course, suicide.

I'm only 23 years old so not experienced enough and I'm still struggling with the question, so I was wondering what you guys think of the matter.

People who find themselves in bad life situations usually have a train-wreck of poor decision making as a cause. Obviously there are indeed exceptions, but on the general glide of things you'll find people often dig their own holes and set their own fires.

I know people in bad situations for various reasons: no ambition or effort, running their mouths, being unreliable, can't keep it in their pants, etc. They often seem stunned when their reputation precedes them but they shouldn't. They've all heard the same moral refrains their whole life the rest of us have: get off your ass and be productive, don't spread gossip, keep your word and don't be a whore. Some people simply chose their own short-term pleasures over long-term goals and then cry about how life is unfair when they find they can't keep the electricity on or get their paycheck garnished to put food in their babies mouths.

I'm not saying there aren't sob stories I can sympathize with, as I know a few, but they are the exceptions. Life can certainly throw you a curve-ball and force you into a situation, but you still have the free will to react to it appropriately or not.

I was reading a book called "The Habit Of Power" and it basically argues you are conditioned into behaviors, that's what makes up the entirety of your life, that while you can't remove them, you can shift them.

It mentioned a fellow called Eugen who had a brain infection that would kill him, had the part of his brain destroyed (hippocampus) in an operation that resulted in complete memory loss. He forget people immediately, forget conversations and pretty much forget everything that wasn't immediate.

According to the book it was later discovered he still somehow inherently found a way around the house, going to the toilet, the kitchen, and even wandering around the neighborhood to return home, which, at the time, no one knew why or how.

Turns out his basal ganglia had stored habits, sort of like a standby mod. When you get up to brush your teeth, scratch your nose, go to put the trash out or try to get by the monotony of work, that part of your brain is chugging away as an energy saver, and you develop and largely accept routines, even they are terrible.

Of course we do, because we have no choice.

So is not making a decision a decision?

Yes, the choice to do nothing is a choice in itself.

You have the ultimate control over what you do. A ton of external factors may affect your decision, but the decision is still yours to make. And if some higher being or power or whatever is indeed putting thoughts into your head as to what to do, you'd never know it anyways so it's not really worth thinking about.

Dispositions and situational, biological analysis.

Also depends on what theory of free will you want to follow.

@Toxic-Seahorse: Neuroscience debunks that.

How so? I'm genuinely curious.

What about logic loops?

Libet 1985, but don't take everything at face value. All experiments have criticisms.

Has been replicated though.

Numerous FMRI studies have shown that the neurons in the brain that correspond to certain actions have already fired milliseconds before the thought and reasoning process of the person kicks in to do whatever that action was.

I remember reading a recent study that claimed to have proven that we don't have free will - that out "decisions" are an illusion that are actually predetermined by a combination of our biology, external stimuli, and our existing neural pathways formed from past experiences.

I'm not sure they proved it, but I could see how that could be the case.

In recent years, I've been leaning more to that we don't have free will. Let alone control of our circumstances.

In truth, there's so little we can actually control. Choice of school, where we live, who are our parents/family. Our health and how long we'll live. Much of this is very circumstantial and beyond our control. Some people are born with cancer resistant genes. Others will collapse and die playing for their high school team, because of an undiagnosed medical condition. And then there's those moments where everything just magically falls into place. Without our prior knowledge or planning.

No way, for every action there is a reaction.

I think we have some level of control over our lives, but it is quite limited.

Especially when you factor in that our society has rules and norms that we kind of have to follow, and you generally want to try to be a decent and good person.

I think nowadays I'm more of the mindset that we can't control our own destiny, because people kind of judge you and view you a certain way - based on social status, based on appearance, based on personality, etc etc.

Actually, I'm finding that the more I try to put myself out there and make things happen, the more depressed I'm getting because I never get results. At the end of the day, these other people in the world rank you and sort of put you in your place in society, and I don't think there is actually a way to get away from that.

Once you get over that the mind and personality are products of the brain and not the result of some 'spiritual' self then how is it surprising that decisions are rooted in biochemistry?

'You', the personality you define as yourself, is indeed the result of both biology and experience. The human brain is a malleable organ; it can program itself using a trail-and-error routine and prune errant results. This is all active and physical manipulation of the structure of the brain.

There is no thinking 'you' beyond your neural pathways. Your physical neural pathways are quite literally 'you'.

@br0kenrabbit: Yeah, we agree.

I don't think things are externally predetermined (fate, higher power, etc), but I definitely think that various factors (our upbringing, environment, biochemistry...neuorochemistry...whatever the term is?, etc.) of our lives make it so we have little to no choice.

I guess what I am saying is that it's more internal and immediate than most people think, it's not some cosmic scheme.

I've been training in "neuroplasticity" a bit and it is pretty incredible how easy it is to change your thought patterns. Basically I was in the habit of focusing on negative thoughts which in turn would release stressors into my body, which in turn would cause a fight or flight response which in turn stressed me out and would cause more negative thoughts...and it just spirals out of control. So you basically just do some breathing exercises, stop thinking for a second, and replace the negative thought with a good thought. In turn, it replaces the stressors with endorphins and "good" chemicals which causes you to not feel stress, think good thoughts, and do better in general.

It's pretty incredible what you can do yourself in just a few sittings over a few hours; when you think about all the good or bad you can do over the decades that make up even a young life, you start to realize why people act they way they do, that it's not really their fault outright.

Just my $0.02, however.

freedom is an illusion

we are all slaves

I'm leaning towards this. Sure there's no way to completely absolutely 100% conclusively prove that these words I'm typing are done of my own "free will" rather than me simply having to type these words as a necessary consequence of all the stimuli that have affected me. Having said that, it certainly looks like I have free will and am typing these words of my own volition.

Absent any hard evidence to the contrary, something that exhibits all of the traits of being alive is considered to be alive. Someone who totally acts like a racist is considered to be a racist. And by the same reasoning, if I feel like I have free will and if it looks to other people as if I have free will, then it's just safer to consider me as something that has free will. That's not exactly proof, but it's the best we've got.

Furthermore, if we don't have free will, then realizing that we don't have free will doesn't change a damn thing. Because that would then mean that ACTING as if we do or do not have free will is actually out of our control. However, FEELING as if we do or do not have freee will would also be out of our control. It would be completely indistinguishable from a reality in which we did have free will. Which sort of makes it seem like a trivial matter to me. At best, just an interesting conceptual exercise. The notion that we don't have free will is thoroughly untestable. And if it's something that's just inherently impossible to prove, and that runs counter to our every day experiences, then there's not much point in entertaining it as a serious possibility. What I find more interesting is to run with the idea that we DO have free will, and then to examine how free will is possible.

That's pretty much my mindset as of right now

Quite interesting!

Kewl! :D

How many theories are there?

We choose the action so saying we have free will makes sense, right?

Yeah, everything psychological is biological.

True that

Overall, I find philosophical questions so damn intriquing, that's why it's always great to hear what other ppl have to say about them, it's not about getting a definitive answer, it's about widening the perspective.

Kant's more philosophical view - Free will is morality, without morality there is no free will

Libertarian - Cannot remember

Compatibilism - A view from Dennett, basically it's all predetermined, but we can choose not to comply.

There's tons of views.

I find it funny because there are people who think we have free will. The government plants nanobots in the water system so when we take showers they get injected into our skin so the shadow masters can control us and send us to FEMA camps. But an important thing to note the nanobots only work on people with no education so I am sure many of you are safe from them, that's why I find it important to educate my self about the importance of nouns even thought English is my second language so I don't speak it that well so I read articles like this http://edumuch.com/grammar/english-what-are-nouns/

Our will is God's will. And no, I am not a religious person.

Damn son!

That raises an interesting question: Can you believe in God yet not be religious?

We need another thread for that :D

Anyways, so basically, you don't believe in free will, right?

@mjorh: yes, you can believe in God and not be religious, I know many people who believe in a higher power(some call it God, others don't) but do not subscribe to any religion.

On topic: I like to think I have free will but I also feel like things constantly happen that are completely beyond my control to lead me to a place that I never planned on going. Many of these things have been very positive and I am happy with my life, but despite my hard work and determination, I feel like something greater has guided me to the place that I currently am.

We have the freedom to choose a variety of paths in a deterministic universe.

From a scientific point of view, the current answer appears to be it is at least not deterministic.

The reason for this is entropy and information. We know the entropy and information are in truth basically the same thing. Entropy as we know either stays the same or increases, and thus in the same manner information either stays the same or increases. That means though that there must be things that are non-deterministic as the amount of information to describe the current state of the universe is less than the information necessary to describe the next state of the universe after an entropy increase. Basically anything that increases entropy is non-deterministic. Human beings, and life in general, are among that things that are continually increasing entropy. So, we can't be deterministic because of this.

Now that doesn't mean there is 'free will' per say though, just room for it. This non-determinism could simply be pure randomness which is difficult to say is the nature of free will.

There is no such thing as free will. The most fundamental mechanism of the universe in its present form is cause and effect, no matter what specific mechanism that may concern.

You are your brain, and your brain does not have free will. It can only choose based on stimuli and a predefined reaction to that stimuli. Genetics and the environment (honestly the distinction between the two is incredibly overused and oversimplified) alter the "choices" across all organism.

This universe is 100% deterministic. To the extend of my knowledge of physics randomness is arbitrary. We simply don't have the capacity to track every single component of mass and energy at a quantum level so barring accurately predicting such comparatively meaningless events we describe them as random. When a force acts on anything the result is a strictly defined effect, the vector isn't random. As an emergent property, neither are we.

Actually quantum physics expresses true randomness. Even in classical physics there is randomness what with deviation and Gaussian distribution.

Yes

@br0kenrabbit: Are you sure that this doesn't follow an analogous rule akin to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? The lack of precision in measurement generates uncertainty, which creates an illusion of randomness. Could you point me to a source on the topic at a quantum level? Not saying you're wrong, just desiring the material.

Also, are you referring to a Gaussian distribution or Gaussian Laws in Electromagnetism? As far as I know the flux through any object can be strictly defined by the angle of the field through the specific area of the object. The later being the hardest to accurately measure.

Wave function collapse as proposed by the Copenhagen Interpretation states that measurements can only give a random outcome of probabilities. Edit: Should add this is due to the nature of the wave function and not limitations in measurements. See also: Quantum indeterminacy

And Gaussian Distribution = Normal Distribution.

@mrbojangles25: Completely agree with what you said about replacing negative thoughts with positive ones. I remember reading something that helped people dealing with loss, and it instructed them to think about everything they're thankful for, and the things that bring them happiness, 3 times a day for several weeks. It's like a rewiring, and it helped.

On topic: My vote goes to free will.

Damn some answers are so complicated (and interesting) that I don't know what to say lol

Thanks guys.

I'm gravitating towards this.

Btw, awesome sig!

"Ohh yes, I been meaning to comeback and ask this question"

As I said, I am by no means of a Religious person but I'm more of a spiritual guy however if that's what you wanna put it that way. I believe in God but not in a religion way as you think. I don't attend Church, I mean, God is everywhere in my opinion, I don't need a building and go worship, I can do that at my home or anywhere else.

As far as Free Will goes. If Humans have free will as we may think, why can't we go out and do some of the things that other people may seem evil? Have you ever watch one of The Purge Movies? In the Purge, you have free will for during one night, Humans can go kill, steal, and do anything that doesn't have restrictions from our moral Laws. In any case, I don't believe in Free Will, in Human case but in the Animal Kingdom do, they have free will if you know what I mean by that. Does this answer your question so far?

Edit: In games like Grand Theft Auto, it's as close to being free will as it comes cause I can do anything and toss my morals out the window.

I don't think the universe is deterministic, in the traditional sense at least, because quantum mechanics.

However I do believe we have just as much free will as a computer program. Which is none. We appear to have free will because we are vastly more complex than a computer program. But in the end it's just input -> brain algorithms -> output

Imagine you were born without any senses. You wouldn't have any will at all.

@br0kenrabbit: pretty sure deviation and the normal distribution (why that one in particular?) doesn't at all necessarily indicate true randomness.

Normal distribution, like quantum physics, can only predict the next measurement within a degree of probability due to the intrinsic randomness of the system being measured.

That doesn't mean that the "randomness" of that system truly is random. That's your method of prediction being flawed.

I respect your belief, and no i haven't watched the Purge movies.

Now that I think about it, the videogame example is kinda convincing, I mean we don't go out killing ppl because of our morals but we do it in videogames, so it's not a matter of not wanting, I mean if we really didn't want to do it, then why we do it in the videogames? Hmmm ...

@br0kenrabbit: What's your take on the videogame example?

I mentioned Quantum indeterminacy before. I'm also going to suggest Bell's theorem.

As for a layman example of distribution, think of political polling: all the information in the world cannot predict how the next respondent will poll, therefore there is an intrinsic value of randomness in the system being measured.