[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]didn't see that coming Neoconservative approving neoconservative policies?sarcasm?Approve.
DroidPhysX
Do you approve or criticize America's War on Terror ?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
I thought people stopped with the "read a history book" comments in like...2003 maybe? You have no clue how much I know about the issue and there's no way you can judge based on my comment alone. The fact is that the entire middle east should answer for how they treat their citizens and how they allow majority rule. Islamic laws are just one example, and in many countries were these don't exist they're still implemented in practice. It's literally a s**thole filled with uneducated people. And Islam is to blame for this ignorance. The way the US dealt with it was stupid as hell and can be compared to the act of cleaning away a pile of crap by stomping on it. but if you want to blame empires, you can always start with the Ottomans, that's the real culprit in this story, not the west. And the British and French in the Middle East didn't do much to help anything. The Ottomans were of course just as bad as them if not worse, but they are not the sole culprits. It's a mix of many things unlike what some people think. Many just blame Islam and then walk away. And Islam itself (while a backwards ideology in the grand sense) is not the main culprit behind a lack of education in the some areas (Is tied to poverty). There's nothing in Islam that stops people from getting an education just like in Judaism or Hinduism, etc.... The problem with Islam is that it's extremely terretorial. The difference between Islam and Judaism/christianity is that the latter religions usually stick to ideas and ceremonies. Islam on the other hand comments on political systems, the hadiths favors certain kind of clothing etc. They make claims regarding the present and the physical options of people in other words. The result of this is that many view these text as being opposed to anything that isn't Arabic/Muslim. In Iran, it was forbidden to wear ties up until very recently, simply because it was a western invention. The same rules existed in Afghanistan.[QUOTE="jointed"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] ... Wow really? Perhapes some one should open a history book up some time and actually READ about the entire issue at hand.. There is no simple victim and aggressor both sides have both.. Or let me guess you honestly think the United States and Great Britain have done nothing bad over in that region? Its mind boggling how little people know of the entire issue at hand but still think they know what they are talking about... BossPerson
[QUOTE="BossPerson"]And the British and French in the Middle East didn't do much to help anything. The Ottomans were of course just as bad as them if not worse, but they are not the sole culprits. It's a mix of many things unlike what some people think. Many just blame Islam and then walk away. And Islam itself (while a backwards ideology in the grand sense) is not the main culprit behind a lack of education in the some areas (Is tied to poverty). There's nothing in Islam that stops people from getting an education just like in Judaism or Hinduism, etc.... The problem with Islam is that it's extremely terretorial. The difference between Islam and Judaism/christianity is that the latter religions usually stick to ideas and ceremonies. Islam on the other hand comments on political systems, the hadiths favors certain kind of clothing etc. They make claims regarding the present and the physical options of people in other words. The result of this is that many view these text as being opposed to anything that isn't Arabic/Muslim. In Iran, it was forbidden to wear ties up until very recently, simply because it was a western invention. The same rules existed in Afghanistan. This is true. There is also a persecution complex among many people in the Middle East, they feel as though there is a West vs. East battle going on.[QUOTE="jointed"] I thought people stopped with the "read a history book" comments in like...2003 maybe? You have no clue how much I know about the issue and there's no way you can judge based on my comment alone. The fact is that the entire middle east should answer for how they treat their citizens and how they allow majority rule. Islamic laws are just one example, and in many countries were these don't exist they're still implemented in practice. It's literally a s**thole filled with uneducated people. And Islam is to blame for this ignorance. The way the US dealt with it was stupid as hell and can be compared to the act of cleaning away a pile of crap by stomping on it. but if you want to blame empires, you can always start with the Ottomans, that's the real culprit in this story, not the west. jointed
[QUOTE="BossPerson"]And the British and French in the Middle East didn't do much to help anything. The Ottomans were of course just as bad as them if not worse, but they are not the sole culprits. It's a mix of many things unlike what some people think. Many just blame Islam and then walk away. And Islam itself (while a backwards ideology in the grand sense) is not the main culprit behind a lack of education in the some areas (Is tied to poverty). There's nothing in Islam that stops people from getting an education just like in Judaism or Hinduism, etc.... The problem with Islam is that it's extremely terretorial. The difference between Islam and Judaism/christianity is that the latter religions usually stick to ideas and ceremonies. Islam on the other hand comments on political systems, the hadiths favors certain kind of clothing etc. They make claims regarding the present and the physical options of people in other words. The result of this is that many view these text as being opposed to anything that isn't Arabic/Muslim. In Iran, it was forbidden to wear ties up until very recently, simply because it was a western invention. The same rules existed in Afghanistan. That's all true. But there are different degrees to which you can be a 'Muslim nation' such as the difference between Tunisia and Iran. And regarding education like you mentioned, Saudi Arabia there is a 91% enrollment in secondary education (wikipedia). They also have well developed universities as well, even for women (albeit segregated). So there is no real correlation between the amount of extremism in a society and the education levels of the population since Saudi Arabia is bested only by Taliban ruled Afghanistan in their Islamic fundamentalism.[QUOTE="jointed"] I thought people stopped with the "read a history book" comments in like...2003 maybe? You have no clue how much I know about the issue and there's no way you can judge based on my comment alone. The fact is that the entire middle east should answer for how they treat their citizens and how they allow majority rule. Islamic laws are just one example, and in many countries were these don't exist they're still implemented in practice. It's literally a s**thole filled with uneducated people. And Islam is to blame for this ignorance. The way the US dealt with it was stupid as hell and can be compared to the act of cleaning away a pile of crap by stomping on it. but if you want to blame empires, you can always start with the Ottomans, that's the real culprit in this story, not the west. jointed
Of course none of this true, and you're just parroting the lies of the Islamist mass murderers and their apologists on the left. The Muslim-majority Middle East has been exceedingly immune to any for of Western colonialism or imperialism. Of course there are some differences between the countries involved, i.e. Lebanon had (and still does) a greater connection to France and the French culture than Jordan has with British or English culture, but in fact what the Middle East has needed and continues to need a MORE exposure and influence from the West, *not* less. The hatred has everything to do with decades of living within closed societies where social freedoms are greatly reduced. For example, there is no real privately-held media in the entirety of the Middle East (aside from Israel, of course). States control all messages that people are exposed to via radio, television, newspapers, and are now getting more involved in the censoring the internet. After decades of indoctrination, and insulation from the West as opposed to your lie of Western imperialism, the results are obvious. More importantly, the common denominators of Arab/Muslim culture in the Middle East have been and remain very anti-liberalism (in the classical sense). These are deeply-religious societies where animosity towards "the other" (whether it be another sect of Islam or non-Muslims: the kuffar) is prevalent. Violence has always been and remains the language of the Middle East. A fifteen-yar civil war in Lebanon, Black September in Jordan, coup after coup after bloody coup in Syria, Iran's ten-year war with Iraq, Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, Yemen's civil wars, Iraq's mass-murdering of its Kurdish minority, Kurdish/Turkish mass murder and violence in Turkey for decades, Turkey's mass murder of Armenians, The Arabs/Muslims attacking Israel via many wars (and now subsequently utilizing terrorism to maintain plausible deniability of state-sponsorship), etc, etc, etc.... I've heard this lie that you just parroted so many times, I wish I got a dollar for every time I've heard someone completely oblivious of Middle Eastern/Arab/Muslim history blame all of their internal dysfunctions (which manifest themselves in mass murder and terrorism exported to us) talk about imaginary colonialism/imperialism that the Middle East has experienced at the hands of the West. You and Jeremiah Wright are of the same mind, here.[QUOTE="kraychik"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Critical of it in many areas.. Especially the fact that the West has yet to admit that much of the animosity towards them is well founded thanks to a history of nearly a 100 years of imperialism.. This by no means condones or justifies the violent actions by said terrorist groups, but to completely ignore the reasons behind the hatred is flat out ignorance and does not solve the problem.. HoolaHoopMan
I'd honestly like to see how batshlt insane you are in real life. You're rhetoric would make Ann Coulter blush.
What's insane is how people like yourself try to "understand" Islamist mass murderers who want to establish a global Islamic caliphate and subjugate all the Kuffar, and manufacture false historical narratives to portray the America and the broader West as the aggressors who brought on 9/11 through (non-existent) imperialism in the Middle East (and other Muslim-majority countries with high degrees of support for Islamist mass murder).Get upset all you want, but the lies of mass murder and terrorism from Islamists being a reaction to imaginary oppression of Muslim-majority countries at the hands of the West via historical revisionism of imperialism (with some exceptions, i.e. some African Muslim--majority countries) is one that is pretty much a leftist-exclusive. In other words, the left is where this false narrative of apologism for Islamist mass murder and terrorism comes from. This is entirely a political issue, and the way its perceived is wholly divided along political lines - with the left advancing the lie of these crimes being reactions to (non-existent or hugely exaggerated) wrongs that WE'VE done to THEM, and the right rejecting this false narrative of history.[QUOTE="kraychik"][QUOTE="DraugenCP"]
Whatever makes you sleep at night.
DraugenCP
I think the only person upset here is you. Your deluded attempts to classify each opponent of contemporary American foreign policy in the categories of extreme islamism and leftism certainly points in that direction. Stop seeing the world so black and white.
This is all about left and right. Perceptions on the issue associated with the OP (how do you feel about the so-called "War on Terror"?) is heavily divided along political lines. In other words, those who self-identify as conservatives will overwhelmingly support the broad concept of proactively destroying our enemies before they cause us harm (those like myself). Those on the left (you and many others in this thread), however, will overwhelmingly view America and the broader West as cruel and oppressive imperialists who prompted the Islamists to "react" to their (false) perceptions of being oppressed by America and the West. Essentially, you "understand" why the Islamists engage in mass murder and terrorism and believe that (imagined) wrongs that we commit against them cause them to react via mass murder and terrorism.Basically, this issue (as almost all political issues) is divided along political lines. You can witness this in this very thread. As a typical leftist, however. you are oblivious to this very obvious reality. You actually think that this discussion, and that opinions associated with it, can be apolitical (obviously a function of your leftism blinding you to your own biases, as you no doubt view yourself as objective), when of course this discussion and most others are entirely political.
It is in the sincere hope of sticking to the facts and offering only those arguments that can be supported by those facts that this letter is offered to an intelligent and discriminating public. You may be disappointed to hear that my concrete suggestions on how to convince deplorable proponents of alarmism to stop supporting Kraychik and tolerating his stratagems are sprinkled throughout this letter like raisins in a pudding, not grouped together in a single block of text at the end. This was a conscious decision I made based on the observation that Kraychik's maudlin preoccupation with racism, usually sicklied over with such nonsense words as "pseudointernationalistic", would make sense if a person's honor were determined strictly by his or her ability to gag free speech. As that's not the case, we can conclude only that Kraychik is obviously under the influence of LSD or some other hallucinogenic. Why else would he assert that he is always being misrepresented and/or persecuted?
The last time I told Kraychik's spinmeisters that I want to stand up and fight for our heritage, traditions, and values they declared in response, "But public opinion is a reliable indicator of what's true and what isn't." Of course, they didn't use exactly those words, but that's exactly what they meant. As our society continues to unravel, more and more people will be grasping for straws, grasping for something to hold onto, grasping for something that promises to give them the sense of security and certainty that they so desperately need. These are the kinds of people Kraychik preys upon.Documents written by Kraychik's dupes typically include the line, "Mediocrity and normalcy are ideal virtues", in large, 30-point type, as if the size of the font gives weight to the words. In reality, all that that fancy formatting really does is underscore the fact that Kraychik accuses me of being impolite in my responses to his predatory traducements. Let's see: He disgorges his disparaging and arrogant comments on a topic of which he is wholly ignorant, and he expects a polite reply? What is he, balmy.For the sake of the universe, I hope that this is the only planet that contains pestilential antagonists like Kraychik. As far back as I can remember, he has pitted know-nothings against wiseacres and caitiffs against thieves. He hates people who have huge supplies of the things he lacks. What Kraychik lacks the most is common sense, which underlies my point that I support those who devote their life to education and activism. It is through their tireless efforts that people everywhere are learning that for the nonce, Kraychik is content to foist the most poisonously false and destructive myths imaginable upon us. But in the coming days, he will revive an arcadian past that never existed.
To give the devil his due, I was impressed with how efficiently Kraychik managed to trample over the very freedoms and rights that he claims to support, especially given that my sources tell me that he intends to set up dissident groups and individuals for conspiracy charges and then carry out searches and seizures on flimsy pretexts sooner or later. Not on my watch! I am therefore calling upon all good citizens to advocate social change through dialogue, passive resistance, and nonviolence. He obviously believes that his hypnopompic insights can give us deeper insights into the nature of reality. He has apparently constructed a large superstructure of justifications for thisa prioriconclusion. I guess that shouldn't be too surprising given that Kraychik claims that hanging out with the most jaded louts you'll ever see is a wonderful, culturally enriching experience. I would say that that claim is 70% folderol, 20% twaddle, and 10% another stuporous attempt to spread faddism all over the globe like pigeon droppings over Trafalgar Square. Although I can't personally vouch for the facts, I have heard others profess that Kraychik contends that he has mystical powers of divination and prophecy. Sounds rather snooty, doesn't it? Well, that's Kraychik for you. Kraychik's whole life is a succession of shifts, excuses, and expedients. May we never forget this if we are to deny Kraychik and his emissaries a chance to create widespread hysteria.
This is all about left and right.kraychik
Not necessarily.
Until people actually get their heads out of their asses and understand that Western policies are at least part of the problem, there will not be a solution..
sSubZerOo
You're right, but not in the sense that you realize. Our policies are indeed a big part of this problem. And those policies include not destroying our enemies and punishing those that cause us harm. They also include a non-existent energy policy which prohibits America and other Western countries from fully exploiting domestic energy resources under the facade of "environmental protection" (i.e. the lie about man-made AGW and the fake need to control CO2 emissions) . In your fantasy political/historical narrative, however, you see a world where America and the broader West have abused Muslim-majority countries, and that 9/11 and the endless other examples of Islamist mass murder and terrorism are "understandable" reactions to our transgressions. Thank you for putting on display the absurdity of the left, and how domestic leftists are essentially carrying the torch of apologism for Islamist mass murderers. You're doing a damn good job, maybe you can be a commentator someday for the BBC, Al-Jazeera, Russia TV, or Al-Arabiya.
This is obviously some sort of cut-and-pate gibberish. It's mostly incoherent. Nice job.It is in the sincere hope of sticking to the facts and offering only those arguments that can be supported by those facts that this letter is offered to an intelligent and discriminating public. You may be disappointed to hear that my concrete suggestions on how to convince deplorable proponents of alarmism to stop supporting Kraychik and tolerating his stratagems are sprinkled throughout this letter like raisins in a pudding, not grouped together in a single block of text at the end. This was a conscious decision I made based on the observation that Kraychik's maudlin preoccupation with racism, usually sicklied over with such nonsense words as "pseudointernationalistic", would make sense if a person's honor were determined strictly by his or her ability to gag free speech. As that's not the case, we can conclude only that Kraychik is obviously under the influence of LSD or some other hallucinogenic. Why else would he assert that he is always being misrepresented and/or persecuted?
The last time I told Kraychik's spinmeisters that I want to stand up and fight for our heritage, traditions, and values they declared in response, "But public opinion is a reliable indicator of what's true and what isn't." Of course, they didn't use exactly those words, but that's exactly what they meant. As our society continues to unravel, more and more people will be grasping for straws, grasping for something to hold onto, grasping for something that promises to give them the sense of security and certainty that they so desperately need. These are the kinds of people Kraychik preys upon.Documents written by Kraychik's dupes typically include the line, "Mediocrity and normalcy are ideal virtues", in large, 30-point type, as if the size of the font gives weight to the words. In reality, all that that fancy formatting really does is underscore the fact that Kraychik accuses me of being impolite in my responses to his predatory traducements. Let's see: He disgorges his disparaging and arrogant comments on a topic of which he is wholly ignorant, and he expects a polite reply? What is he, balmy.For the sake of the universe, I hope that this is the only planet that contains pestilential antagonists like Kraychik. As far back as I can remember, he has pitted know-nothings against wiseacres and caitiffs against thieves. He hates people who have huge supplies of the things he lacks. What Kraychik lacks the most is common sense, which underlies my point that I support those who devote their life to education and activism. It is through their tireless efforts that people everywhere are learning that for the nonce, Kraychik is content to foist the most poisonously false and destructive myths imaginable upon us. But in the coming days, he will revive an arcadian past that never existed.
To give the devil his due, I was impressed with how efficiently Kraychik managed to trample over the very freedoms and rights that he claims to support, especially given that my sources tell me that he intends to set up dissident groups and individuals for conspiracy charges and then carry out searches and seizures on flimsy pretexts sooner or later. Not on my watch! I am therefore calling upon all good citizens to advocate social change through dialogue, passive resistance, and nonviolence. He obviously believes that his hypnopompic insights can give us deeper insights into the nature of reality. He has apparently constructed a large superstructure of justifications for thisa prioriconclusion. I guess that shouldn't be too surprising given that Kraychik claims that hanging out with the most jaded louts you'll ever see is a wonderful, culturally enriching experience. I would say that that claim is 70% folderol, 20% twaddle, and 10% another stuporous attempt to spread faddism all over the globe like pigeon droppings over Trafalgar Square. Although I can't personally vouch for the facts, I have heard others profess that Kraychik contends that he has mystical powers of divination and prophecy. Sounds rather snooty, doesn't it? Well, that's Kraychik for you. Kraychik's whole life is a succession of shifts, excuses, and expedients. May we never forget this if we are to deny Kraychik and his emissaries a chance to create widespread hysteria.
DroidPhysX
[QUOTE="jointed"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]And the British and French in the Middle East didn't do much to help anything. The Ottomans were of course just as bad as them if not worse, but they are not the sole culprits. It's a mix of many things unlike what some people think. Many just blame Islam and then walk away. And Islam itself (while a backwards ideology in the grand sense) is not the main culprit behind a lack of education in the some areas (Is tied to poverty). There's nothing in Islam that stops people from getting an education just like in Judaism or Hinduism, etc....kingkong0124The problem with Islam is that it's extremely terretorial. The difference between Islam and Judaism/christianity is that the latter religions usually stick to ideas and ceremonies. Islam on the other hand comments on political systems, the hadiths favors certain kind of clothing etc. They make claims regarding the present and the physical options of people in other words. The result of this is that many view these text as being opposed to anything that isn't Arabic/Muslim. In Iran, it was forbidden to wear ties up until very recently, simply because it was a western invention. The same rules existed in Afghanistan. This is true. There is also a persecution complex among many people in the Middle East, they feel as though there is a West vs. East battle going on. In a broader sense, there is a freedom vs. tyranny battle going on, and it's been going on for centuries. Generally speaking, the Middle East is aligned with the forces of tyranny, so there is some truth to this West vs. East (Islamism) conflict, which is a component of the broader struggle between the forces of freedom against the forces of leftism (Islamism, Nazism, Communism, Socialism, etc).
Kraychik, were you ever kidnapped by FARC rebels at any point in your life? Just wondering...
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="jointed"]I'm not very fond of it, it has made the muslims look like victims instead of the perperators they really are.jointed... Wow really? Perhapes some one should open a history book up some time and actually READ about the entire issue at hand.. There is no simple victim and aggressor both sides have both.. Or let me guess you honestly think the United States and Great Britain have done nothing bad over in that region? Its mind boggling how little people know of the entire issue at hand but still think they know what they are talking about... I thought people stopped with the "read a history book" comments in like...2003 maybe? You have no clue how much I know about the issue and there's no way you can judge based on my comment alone. The fact is that the entire middle east should answer for how they treat their citizens and how they allow majority rule. Islamic laws are just one example, and in many countries were these don't exist they're still implemented in practice. It's literally a s**thole filled with uneducated people. And Islam is to blame for this ignorance. The way the US dealt with it was stupid as hell and can be compared to the act of cleaning away a pile of crap by stomping on it. but if you want to blame empires, you can always start with the Ottomans, that's the real culprit in this story, not the west. You need to understand that you're dealing with a leftist who has no qualms about *outright lying* and manufacturing false historical narratives in order to bolster his false assertion that America brought 9/11 onto itself via oppressive foreign policies in Muslim-majority countries. Leftists like SubZero have no honesty, integrity, or sincere curiosity. He starts with a political conclusion, and then builds a false narrative to support it. Honest people, on the other hand, examine what's occurred, and then draw their conclusions. Leftists work backwards, in a sense.
the forces of leftism (Islamism...).kraychik
Islam is far from being a leftist ideology.
[QUOTE="kraychik"]the forces of leftism (Islamism...).ghoklebutter
Islam is far from being a leftist ideology.
It is absolutely a leftist ideology as it is predicated on a centralized control of both the economic and social spheres in the interests of fighting against human nature (the desire to be free) and embarking on a widescale program of social engineering. What leftism means is essentially centralization of control. In other words, the bigger the government, the smaller the individual (thanks to Dennis Prager for that one). Or, put yet another way, the more the state grows, the more the individual is eroded. This is really about the state versus the individual, and on this paradigm Islamism is entirely a leftist ideology, in-line with Nazism, Communism, Aristocracies, and Socialism.
I would be completely for it if it was working/will eventually work :|
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]
[QUOTE="kraychik"]the forces of leftism (Islamism...).-Sun_Tzu-
Islam is far from being a leftist ideology.
I don't like leftism
Islamism is something I don't like
Therefore leftism is Islamism
QED
Again, you're wrong. The left is never an advocate for personal liberty (and responsibility). The entire ideology of the left is predicated on the belief that human nature can be perfected via massive social engineering programs. This is what Islamism also tries to accomplish via an oppressive state mechanism to coerce its subject into becoming pious Muslims and servants of the state. The same thing is true for communism, even though communism is fiercely atheistic. It's about centralization of control. So, leftism is tyranny, and tyranny comes in many flavours - Islamism, Nazism, Communism, etc.No, but I have a few leftists chained in the basement of a remote apartment I rent out in the boonies. I go there once a week to refill their food and water dispensers. Smells rally bad in their cages, though.Kraychik, were you ever kidnapped by FARC rebels at any point in your life? Just wondering...
BossPerson
I disapprove and heavily criticize the War on Terror as I see it as nothing more than an excuse to aquire the resources in that region of the globe while expanding the tentacles of the US military machine and it's corrupted idea od "Democracy".
Terrorism is todays boogeyman and is usedas the rationale to milatarize a countryjust as Communism once was.
I approve of the idea that terrorism should be stopped. The methods that they go about doing that however are completely asinine.
Not to mention it's a colossal waste of money, time, effort, lives, and energy. It's a war you cannot win, especially since the Patriot Act attempted to define terrorism in extremely broad terms. If you have any legal knowledge, then you know what a civil and social mess it becomes once a bill tries to define an abstract concept such as terrorism in such a vague way. It's now an unwinnable conflict where the American people are the enemies and our wallets are doing the fighting against us. It will be that way for quite some time...
That's not to even bring in the obvious benefit that MilSec corporations get from it all. They lobby every year for military spending to increase, and it's clearly working.
What leftism means is essentially centralization of control. kraychik
Nope. Leftism is about socioeconomic equality. It's not necessarily authoritarian or based on centralization of control. And a leftist can be anti-authoritarian as well.
Islam is rightist because it supports and accepts socioeconomic hierarchies.
[QUOTE="kraychik"]What leftism means is essentially centralization of control. ghoklebutter
Nope. Leftism is about socioeconomic equality. It's not necessarily authoritarian or based on centralization of control. And a leftist can be anti-authoritarian as well.
Islam is rightist because it supports and accepts socioeconomic hierarchies.
You shouldn't engage with him, you're better than that.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]
Islam is far from being a leftist ideology.
kraychik
I don't like leftism
Islamism is something I don't like
Therefore leftism is Islamism
QED
Again, you're wrong. The left is never an advocate for personal liberty (and responsibility). The entire ideology of the left is predicated on the belief that human nature can be perfected via massive social engineering programs. This is what Islamism also tries to accomplish via an oppressive state mechanism to coerce its subject into becoming pious Muslims and servants of the state. The same thing is true for communism, even though communism is fiercely atheistic. It's about centralization of control. So, leftism is tyranny, and tyranny comes in many flavours - Islamism, Nazism, Communism, etc. Sure is a lot of unsubstantiated bullsh!t in this post.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]
Islam is far from being a leftist ideology.
kraychik
I don't like leftism
Islamism is something I don't like
Therefore leftism is Islamism
QED
Again, you're wrong. The left is never an advocate for personal liberty (and responsibility). The entire ideology of the left is predicated on the belief that human nature can be perfected via massive social engineering programs. This is what Islamism also tries to accomplish via an oppressive state mechanism to coerce its subject into becoming pious Muslims and servants of the state. The same thing is true for communism, even though communism is fiercely atheistic. It's about centralization of control. So, leftism is tyranny, and tyranny comes in many flavours - Islamism, Nazism, Communism, etc. That feel when you just described the right wing.The entire ideology of the left is predicated on the belief that human nature can be perfected via massive social engineering programs. This is what Islamism also tries to accomplish via an oppressive state mechanism to coerce its subject into becoming pious Muslims and servants of the state.kraychik
Islam holds that humans are inherently imperfect and so incapable of being perfected through "social engineering programs."
[QUOTE="kraychik"]What leftism means is essentially centralization of control. ghoklebutter
Nope. Leftism is about socioeconomic equality. It's not necessarily authoritarian or based on centralization of control. And a leftist can be anti-authoritarian as well.
Islam is rightist because it supports and accepts socioeconomic hierarchies.
Well, "socioeconomic equality" is a nonsense Marxist term. People should be compensated based on the value they provide to others via voluntary transactions in a free economy. If you want "socioeconomic equality" (which essentially means equally-distributed misery), go to Cuba, the former Soviet Union, or North Korea. All have high degrees of equality (aside from the teeny tiny political class). Everyone is equally impoverished. To implement "socioeconomic equality", the state but be given coercive control over private property. In other words, more government control over the economy - which *is* authoritarian control. There is no way around this. There is an inverse relationship between individual liberty and state control in either the social or economic spheres. There is nothing "rightist" about Islamism, as Islamism is a leftist ideology that believes in trampling all over the freedom of individuals in the name of the (imaginary) best interests of the society - essentially making individuals slaves to the state. You are parroting a leftist lie that the right has anything to do with Islamism or Nazism, which are iterations of the leftist ideology of centralized control. It's a way for leftists like you to pretend that there is some sort of polar opposite on our side that is just as evil as the ideology to subscribe to.[QUOTE="kraychik"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Again, you're wrong. The left is never an advocate for personal liberty (and responsibility). The entire ideology of the left is predicated on the belief that human nature can be perfected via massive social engineering programs. This is what Islamism also tries to accomplish via an oppressive state mechanism to coerce its subject into becoming pious Muslims and servants of the state. The same thing is true for communism, even though communism is fiercely atheistic. It's about centralization of control. So, leftism is tyranny, and tyranny comes in many flavours - Islamism, Nazism, Communism, etc. Sure is a lot of unsubstantiated bullsh!t in this post. It's all true. You probably also parrot the lie of Nazism being a "far-right" ideology, and the counterbalance on the right to communism. Of course this is a lie, as Nazism and communism share almost all of their ideological underpinnings. The only difference, of course, is the racial element of Nazism, whereas communism (and Islamism) are internationalist in focus. If you don't like the left-right paradigm, which ghoklebutter also has a beef with, then think of it in terms of statism vs. individualism. If we examine this issue from the point of departure of the statist/individualist struggle, then Islamism is categorized along with communism, aristocracies/monarchies, Nazism, and socialism, which are all characterized by having a strong and oppressive state apparatus which crushes the individual. This is the family of ideologies to which you subscribe.I don't like leftism
Islamism is something I don't like
Therefore leftism is Islamism
QED
-Sun_Tzu-
[QUOTE="kraychik"]The entire ideology of the left is predicated on the belief that human nature can be perfected via massive social engineering programs. This is what Islamism also tries to accomplish via an oppressive state mechanism to coerce its subject into becoming pious Muslims and servants of the state.ghoklebutter
Islam holds that humans are inherently imperfect and so incapable of being perfected through "social engineering programs."
Absolutely untrue, as Islamism (political Islam, if you didn't already know) coerces people into submission. In other words, people are coerced into compliance with the state's perception of Islamic piousness. All sorts of religious transgressions carry heavy legal penalties. Islamism and other leftist ideologies are all about the state crushing the individual. In the words of O'Brian from 1984, force and violence is not a means, but an end - and that his vision of the future was a boot stomping down onto a person's face indefinitely. That is communism. That is Islamism. That is socialism. That is Nazism. That is the family of leftist ideologies and real tyranny.[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]
Until people actually get their heads out of their asses and understand that Western policies are at least part of the problem, there will not be a solution..
kraychik
You're right, but not in the sense that you realize. Our policies are indeed a big part of this problem. And those policies include not destroying our enemies and punishing those that cause us harm. They also include a non-existent energy policy which prohibits America and other Western countries from fully exploiting domestic energy resources under the facade of "environmental protection" (i.e. the lie about man-made AGW and the fake need to control CO2 emissions) . In your fantasy political/historical narrative, however, you see a world where America and the broader West have abused Muslim-majority countries, and that 9/11 and the endless other examples of Islamist mass murder and terrorism are "understandable" reactions to our transgressions. Thank you for putting on display the absurdity of the left, and how domestic leftists are essentially carrying the torch of apologism for Islamist mass murderers. You're doing a damn good job, maybe you can be a commentator someday for the BBC, Al-Jazeera, Russia TV, or Al-Arabiya.
I see you ignored the report I linked.[QUOTE="kraychik"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]
Until people actually get their heads out of their asses and understand that Western policies are at least part of the problem, there will not be a solution..
m25105
You're right, but not in the sense that you realize. Our policies are indeed a big part of this problem. And those policies include not destroying our enemies and punishing those that cause us harm. They also include a non-existent energy policy which prohibits America and other Western countries from fully exploiting domestic energy resources under the facade of "environmental protection" (i.e. the lie about man-made AGW and the fake need to control CO2 emissions) . In your fantasy political/historical narrative, however, you see a world where America and the broader West have abused Muslim-majority countries, and that 9/11 and the endless other examples of Islamist mass murder and terrorism are "understandable" reactions to our transgressions. Thank you for putting on display the absurdity of the left, and how domestic leftists are essentially carrying the torch of apologism for Islamist mass murderers. You're doing a damn good job, maybe you can be a commentator someday for the BBC, Al-Jazeera, Russia TV, or Al-Arabiya.
I see you ignored the report I linked. You misrepresented the title, and if you've got something to say, say it. I'm not going to read random links thrown at me. I didn't see Paul Wolfowtiz's name mentioned there, either. And who cares what that organization has to say about these issues? Again, if you've got a point to make, go for it. You obviously don't, and prefer to throw around links because you can't compose original thoughts of your own (as a well-behaved leftist drone). I put in the time to compose posts, you don't. You make little one-second troll posts.Absolutely untrue, as Islamism (political Islam, if you didn't already know) coerces people into submission. In other words, people are coerced into compliance with the state's perception of Islamic piousness. All sorts of religious transgressions carry heavy legal penalties. Islamism and other leftist ideologies are all about the state crushing the individual. In the words of O'Brian from 1984, force and violence is not a means, but an end - and that his vision of the future was a boot stomping down onto a person's face indefinitely. That is communism. That is Islamism. That is socialism. That is Nazism. That is the family of leftist ideologies and real tyranny.kraychik
Islam has a doctrine very similar to that of original sin in Christianity (and the only difference is that it doesn't regard children as innately sinful). Therefore, the idea of social engineering is totally not Islamic. In fact, Allah curses those who want to "perfect" human nature.
It is certainly very authoritarian - I agree. But Islam accepts economic hieararchies, and doesn't support equality for the most part. It also supports capital. The only possible exception is the idea of zakah, which is an obligatory 2.5% alms tax that is supposed to allow for wider wealth distribution. Therefore, Islam is decidedly rightist.
If you think that all leftist ideologies are about destroying individuality, then clearly you haven't heard of libertarian socialists.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="kraychik"] It's all true. You probably also parrot the lie of Nazism being a "far-right" ideology, and the counterbalance on the right to communism. Of course this is a lie, as Nazism and communism share almost all of their ideological underpinnings. The only difference, of course, is the racial element of Nazism, whereas communism (and Islamism) are internationalist in focus. If you don't like the left-right paradigm, which ghoklebutter also has a beef with, then think of it in terms of statism vs. individualism. If we examine this issue from the point of departure of the statist/individualist struggle, then Islamism is categorized along with communism, aristocracies/monarchies, Nazism, and socialism, which are all characterized by having a strong and oppressive state apparatus which crushes the individual. This is the family of ideologies to which you subscribe. kraychikThere's nothing statist about my political philosophy. Aside from the fact that this is yet another example of you not even understanding yourself (remember how were both a Zionist and anti-Zionist in the very same thread?), as somehow you are a self-described "radical leftist", yet not a statist. You admire Rosa Luxemberg, but aren't a statist? Again, your cognitive dissonance is on display for all to see. Moreover, it's really irrelevant to me what you believe or don't believe. What you say, on the other hand, is entirely false, as you are parroting the leftist lie that Islamism is a "right-wing" ideology, when of course it is nothing of the sort. You're identifying real similarities between existing examples of communism/socialism and fascism, but you are such a dogmatic right-wing ideologue that you see this as evidence that fascism is a left-wing ideology, and then further generalize all lefties as implicit supporters of fascism because of the imaginary dots you connected. These are obvious non sequitars. It does not follow in the least bit that because the USSR was very similar to the Third Reich that it makes Nazism a left wing ideology.
I agree with its stated principles, however I am very critical of its overall implementation. -Sun_Tzu-Ditto.
the west is trying its best to keep the muslims from reaching super power again. from rebuilding the "islamic caliphate" as they call it
laugh at this like ignorant fks if you want but its true, all this money, all the support for israel. predictions from the Quran are all coming true. weather you like it or not.
Muslim superiority? DO NOT WANTthe west is trying its best to keep the muslims from reaching super power again. from reuilding the "islamic caliphate" as they call it
laugh at this like ignorant fks if you want but its true, all this money, all the support for israel. predictions from the Quran are all coming true. weather you like it or not.
GrayF0X786
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]Muslim superiority? DO NOT WANT thats ok lolthe west is trying its best to keep the muslims from reaching super power again. from reuilding the "islamic caliphate" as they call it
laugh at this like ignorant fks if you want but its true, all this money, all the support for israel. predictions from the Quran are all coming true. weather you like it or not.
DroidPhysX
Muslim superiority? DO NOT WANT thats ok lol I'll keep my porn and alcohol[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]
the west is trying its best to keep the muslims from reaching super power again. from reuilding the "islamic caliphate" as they call it
laugh at this like ignorant fks if you want but its true, all this money, all the support for israel. predictions from the Quran are all coming true. weather you like it or not.
GrayF0X786
Muslim superiority? DO NOT WANTDroidPhysX
x10
[QUOTE="m25105"][QUOTE="kraychik"]I see you ignored the report I linked. You misrepresented the title, and if you've got something to say, say it. I'm not going to read random links thrown at me. I didn't see Paul Wolfowtiz's name mentioned there, either. And who cares what that organization has to say about these issues? Again, if you've got a point to make, go for it. You obviously don't, and prefer to throw around links because you can't compose original thoughts of your own (as a well-behaved leftist drone). I put in the time to compose posts, you don't. You make little one-second troll posts. There is nothing misrepresented. Skip to page 21 and start reading, and Wolfowitz name and signature is on page 98.You're right, but not in the sense that you realize. Our policies are indeed a big part of this problem. And those policies include not destroying our enemies and punishing those that cause us harm. They also include a non-existent energy policy which prohibits America and other Western countries from fully exploiting domestic energy resources under the facade of "environmental protection" (i.e. the lie about man-made AGW and the fake need to control CO2 emissions) . In your fantasy political/historical narrative, however, you see a world where America and the broader West have abused Muslim-majority countries, and that 9/11 and the endless other examples of Islamist mass murder and terrorism are "understandable" reactions to our transgressions. Thank you for putting on display the absurdity of the left, and how domestic leftists are essentially carrying the torch of apologism for Islamist mass murderers. You're doing a damn good job, maybe you can be a commentator someday for the BBC, Al-Jazeera, Russia TV, or Al-Arabiya.
kraychik
LOL @ the very notion of Islamic superiority. < 3 oxymorons!
i understand everyone :) lol
the west is trying its best to keep the muslims from reaching super power again. from rebuilding the "islamic caliphate" as they call it
laugh at this like ignorant fks if you want but its true, all this money, all the support for israel. predictions from the Quran are all coming true. weather you like it or not.
GrayF0X786
I never knew a fairy-tale book that a mentally-ill, gynophobic, misogynistic, anti-kuffar Arabian pedophile made up with the help of his self-interested companions could make such accurate predictions. I'm scared.
Muslim superiority? DO NOT WANT thats ok lolHow about you focus on internal development instead of imperialism? take a lesson from history...[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]
the west is trying its best to keep the muslims from reaching super power again. from reuilding the "islamic caliphate" as they call it
laugh at this like ignorant fks if you want but its true, all this money, all the support for israel. predictions from the Quran are all coming true. weather you like it or not.
GrayF0X786
ITT: Pseudo-intellectuals argue about the semantical definitions of "left" and "right" that are both outdated and taken out of context solely to fulfill their need to label themselves.
One thing I'd like to clear up though that someone said a few pages back (probably Kraychik, can't remember): ALL political systems require individual responsibility, bar ones based on Nihilism and those don't exist. Being a leftist does not shirk those responsibilities in any case. And just a small hint for you kids still arguing, NO regime on the planet has ever been solely left-winged or right-winged, so you can stop the whole "Political Islam/Nazism is left-wing!" "No it's not!" because you're both fvcking wrong.
NO regime on the planet has ever been solely left-winged or right-winged, so you can stop the whole "Political Islam/Nazism is left-wing!" "No it's not!" because you're both fvcking wrong.
Saturos3091
Perhaps that's true. I don't think it's far-fetched to say that Islam is mostly right-wing, however.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment