Do you support Abortions?

[QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="domatron23"]

Okay here's what I wrote in another thread:

Here's the heart of the matter. Human's are differentiated from animals by two things, sentience and sapience. If you don't have those things you are not a human, if you had those things but then lost them then you (as a human) are dead. If you seperate being alive from being human then the situation is clear, a fetus is not a human and therefore doesn't have the rights of a human. Hell we could even extend that to include newborns and toddlers because I'm pretty sure that they don't acquire the two S' until about one or two years of age (not too sure about the specific age).

Now hang on a second did I just suggest that infanticide (killing newborns and toddlers) is okay? Yes I did. But surely I must be wrong because everybody would say that infanticide is abhorrent and on that point I would agree. Unfortunately though we must either accept that infanticide is as justified as killing pigs and cattle or that we have chosen the wrong way to define what is and is not a human. What else could make a person a person? A soul perhaps, nah wishful thinking and unfalsifiable reasoning. Seems that we have a conundrum.

My answer sadly is to conclude that newborns are not actually people. They're alive that's for sure but other than that they are nothing special. There's two ways that I know that attempt to resolve this situation.

1. The argument from potentiality. A fetus/newborn has the potential to be a human and given the proper chance will, therefore we should give it every opportunity. This argument has a strong premise but it's conclusion is arbitrary and weak. Just because something can happen doesn't mean that it should happen. Why are we obliged to give fetus' a fighting chance? Quite simply we are not. The best I can make of this argument is to say that a fetus ought to be considered a seperate being from if it could survive outside the womb by itself. If it can break the parasite relationship to the mother then it can be considered to have rights of it's own (whether or not those rights include the right to life is unclear as of yet).

2. The argument from cuteness. As humans we instinctually feel affection for things with baby-like features. Check out this thread, yeah those are the sort of instinctual affections I'm talking about. They're an innate reaction placed in our brains by evolution and they help the propegation of our species. The argument goes that we shouldn't kill babies just because they're so damned cute but this of course indulges in the naturalistic fallacy and is even more arbitrary and pointless than
the first. It explains very well our gut reaction to the proposition of infanticide that I suggested earlier but doesn't really give a good enough reason to not do it.

Conclusion time:

A fetus is definitely not a person when it is in the parasite phase of the pregnancy. I think that the fetus can survive independantly of the mother sometime in the late second or early third trimester so before this point mothers ought to feel free to scramble the fetus' brains and then vacuum them out. 1st trimester abortions are definitely ok.

After a fetus breaks the parasite phase there is a period where it is a seperate being yet it doesn't have the two S'. This period is ambiguous and it could well be that it is in fact justifiable to not give human rights to the organism in this period (although doing so would absolutely violate our instincts).

My personal conclusion? If they are under 16-20 weeks then their rights depend entirely on how much the mother wants them. After that it's the point of no return.

Oh God I'm a monster.

bobaban

hell, with the definition of "person" being so subjective, it could be said that because atheists dont have a relationship with God, then they are not persons, and therefore we can kill them for their body parts.

HAHA what? Don't confuse the government and religion.

[QUOTE="fastesttruck"]I'm for it b/c IMHO there are far too many people on earth now anyway. Stoping a few from being born can only help over allJandurin

actually America is in trouble in the next 30 years or so. People are living longer but much less people are being born than there used to. So in about 30 years there will be 2 Employed for every 1 unemployed (elderly) It will put such a strain on the economy that it will essentially collapse leaving us with a torn nation. I see Civil War 2 (Source- Pope John Paul II in an enyclical to the Church)

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"] it is silly to justify abortion on the basis of personhood because there is no way to objectively ****fy someone as a person or a non-person.

hell, with the definition of "person" being so subjective, it could be said that because atheists dont have a relationship with God, then they are not persons, and therefore we can kill them for their body parts.

fanofazrienoch

Well I stated that my definition of being a human person was possessing sapience and sentience. My conclusions were assuming that this definition was acceptable. Do you define humanity in a different way?

That just sounds like a cop-out argument from postmodernism. There was a Calvin and Hobbes strip once where Calvin didn't know an answer to history question so he just denied the existence of temporality to muddle the point into ridicule. Looks like you're doing the same. You can question my definition of humanity and hypothesise your own but just denying it seems a little lazy.

[QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"] it is silly to justify abortion on the basis of personhood because there is no way to objectively ****fy someone as a person or a non-person.

hell, with the definition of "person" being so subjective, it could be said that because atheists dont have a relationship with God, then they are not persons, and therefore we can kill them for their body parts.

domatron23

Well I stated that my definition of being a human person was possessing sapience and sentience. My conclusions were assuming that this definition was acceptable. Do you define humanity in a different way?

That just sounds like a cop-out argument from postmodernism. There was a Calvin and Hobbes strip once where Calvin didn't know an answer to history question so he just denied the existence of temporality to muddle the point into ridicule. Looks like you're doing the same. You can question my definition of humanity and hypothesise your own but just denying it seems a little lazy.

No. Becuase your taking someones life and it's wrong. Why should the child pay the price when it was the parents fault. I do surrport adoption, yes 9 motnhs of hell for the woman but thats the chance you take when you having sex. MrLions

I think the child pays a higher price being forced to grow up impoverished and fatherless.

[QUOTE="MrLions"]No. Becuase your taking someones life and it's wrong. Why should the child pay the price when it was the parents fault. I do surrport adoption, yes 9 motnhs of hell for the woman but thats the chance you take when you having sex. gobo212

I think the child pays a higher price being forced to grow up impoverished and fatherless.

[QUOTE="gobo212"]

[QUOTE="MrLions"]No. Becuase your taking someones life and it's wrong. Why should the child pay the price when it was the parents fault. I do surrport adoption, yes 9 motnhs of hell for the woman but thats the chance you take when you having sex. fanofazrienoch

I think the child pays a higher price being forced to grow up impoverished and fatherless.

I would rather not live at all than not be happy.

I would never "support" abortion.

However, i don't think there should be any laws restricting access to safe and legal abortions

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="fanofazrienoch"] it is silly to justify abortion on the basis of personhood because there is no way to objectively ****fy someone as a person or a non-person.

hell, with the definition of "person" being so subjective, it could be said that because atheists dont have a relationship with God, then they are not persons, and therefore we can kill them for their body parts.

fanofazrienoch

Well I stated that my definition of being a human person was possessing sapience and sentience. My conclusions were assuming that this definition was acceptable. Do you define humanity in a different way?

That just sounds like a cop-out argument from postmodernism. There was a Calvin and Hobbes strip once where Calvin didn't know an answer to history question so he just denied the existence of temporality to muddle the point into ridicule. Looks like you're doing the same. You can question my definition of humanity and hypothesise your own but just denying it seems a little lazy.

I know you never submitted your own definition. Your argument is that it's impossible to define a person therefore we shouldn't use the term to justify abortion. I dispute that assertion and call your argument a lazy post-modernist denial of definition. If you really want to dispute my definitions then you should put forth your own.

I don't think you understand the reason some people are opposed to abortions. But generalize away...:|LJS9502_basic

What if you were a teenager with no job no money no car and were in school trying to get an education, hmmm abortion sounds pretty good now doesn't it?

not that I support it.

Psychosisrain

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I don't think you understand the reason some people are opposed to abortions. But generalize away...:|foxhound_fox

What if you were a teenager with no job no money no car and were in school trying to get an education, hmmm abortion sounds pretty good now doesn't it?

not that I support it.

Psychosisrain

Is california different? I never got abstinence only sex ed. I got hey abstience is good, but if your gonna do it. Do the following...

A young and vulnerable teenage girl is walking home at night from her part time job. A large man grabs her and pulls her into an alley. bam bam, rape. Now we got a rape pregnancy.

But by all means deny this girl the rights to an abortion, only so the child can live in poverty and live as an accident with his/her traumatized mother and learn about their father, the raper. Sounds like an ideal life to me!

/end sarcasm

Is california different? I never got abstinence only sex ed. I got hey abstience is good, but if your gonna do it. Do the following...Ravirr

[QUOTE="Ravirr"]Is california different? I never got abstinence only sex ed. I got hey abstience is good, but if your gonna do it. Do the following...foxhound_fox

People always mention abstinence only sex ed. I never got this. I got all the details too. I was just curious if california was different than the rest of the US

People always mention abstinence only sex ed. I never got this. I got all the details too. I was just curious if california was different than the rest of the USRavirr

I'm split. One half of me says it's wrong and that it's a person. The other half wants the freedom of choice.gasmaskman

That's what makes this country the way it is. And that's why I support those of you who have abortions, you have the right to, so you know what, exercise your rights.

[QUOTE="Ravirr"]People always mention abstinence only sex ed. I never got this. I got all the details too. I was just curious if california was different than the rest of the USfoxhound_fox

AKA, the South. :D

[QUOTE="The_Ish"]

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"]No, only if it's life threatening. Life begins at conception. The cell begins to divide, and thus it's growing. It doesn't matter at what trimester you abort it, you're still killing that life. 7 weeks or 7 months, it's the same damn thing. And for all you abortion supporters, remember, you may have been aborted.JustPlainLucas

I don't see how you can consider life so sacred unless you are a vegan who does not take many baths.

Maybe you are talking about human life? If so, how does that make us more of a priority than any other type of life?

There is a world of difference between raising animals for food and killing fetuses because they were unplanned. :|

Not really. None of them very important, at least. The one similarity however, is more important than any of the differences.

A first trimester fetus and some animals meant for butcher are not sentient, nor do they have the capability of being sentient. We can forfeit their "lives", by virtue of our sentience.

I do not actively support it, but yes, if done promptly and before development. It's better to have planned child in a loving environment than a child born into misery of some sort.

as a female jessie5788

Liar!

[QUOTE="jessie5788"]as a female mikeg0788

Liar!

what???

Up to the first few hours of being born? Why did you put in that option? How about an option that just says "I am for abortion"? From a standpoint of science a baby's brain isn't much more developed right after it's born into a handful of weeks after it's born so it's really wouldn't make much of a difference if the baby died. They baby is so underdeveloped in that stage that it just barely senses its own existence and it's very ability to smile is even just instinctive and is an evolutionary ability it isn't really conscience of....So I don't see why people see it from a viewpoint of "Ohhhh it's so mean", or "It didn't get to experience life yet", because if it can't even know of its own existence (or at least barely) then it isn't really like killing a person. More like killing a housecat, so yeah, just because it looks like a person doesn't make it very much of a person.

Anyway, I'm pro abortion.

[QUOTE="mikeg0788"]

[QUOTE="jessie5788"]as a female jessie5788

Liar!

what???

There's no women on the internet.

You should all look up aborted fetuses on a search engine. Many people who see them no longer support abortions.Jemdude

You should all look up aborted fetuses on a search engine. Many people who see them no longer support abortions.Jemdude

Already seen my share on the internet. I am still unphased about abortion. However I believe that seeing a real aborted fetus may slightly change my opinion, or seriously scar me.

Im surprised how even this poll is. However this is one subject where the woman's situation should dictate if an abortion is necessary. Regardless, if the fetus has not developed, I have absolutely no objection to abortions.

You should all look up aborted fetuses on a search engine. Many people who see them no longer support abortions.Jemdude

I am desensitized to that stuff.

Besides, shock or awe is not a good basis for debate.

You should all look up aborted fetuses on a search engine. Many people who see them no longer support abortions.Jemdude

Been there done that. Bringing emotions into the argument just obscures the point beyond recognition.

Unless its for life threatening reasons, abortion is nothing more but murder.

sometimes though women are forced into abortion against their will by the father of the child or by the woman's parents or peers.whipassmt

She says to the doctor, "don't do this, I want to keep my baby"

Edited the last line out.

Women have control over their body, which means that abortions should be legal.

I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice. There's a huge difference.

Pro-choice. It's the woman's decision and I have no right to tell her what to do with her body.krazykillaz

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]sometimes though women are forced into abortion against their will by the father of the child or by the woman's parents or peers.Jandurin

She says to the doctor, "don't do this, I want to keep my baby"

Edited the last line out.

I have an idea- on Halloween and mischief night Pro-lifers should go and egg and TP the local abortion clinic, if you get caught this way you get sympathy with some jurors and you can say you weren't vandalizing, you were making a political statement. It's better than egging someone's house.

me and my buddy over here don't like abhortion.

You guys need to think like if YOU were raped what would YOU want to do. and I am sure probably get an abortion I mean c'mon

not that I support it.

Psychosisrain

If I was raped then abortion really wouldn't be on my mind. . . . .a bath in acid, perhaps, but not abortion.:|