[QUOTE="kev_stevens67"]
Why seperate the two? For many, including myself, beliefs and values are the same. I believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and I believe in His teachings as well. Values are merely what someone places in importance. I value the teachings of Jesus Christ as very important in my life. To be honest, I'm not really certain what your point really is here.
foxhound_fox
Values and beliefs are not the same thing. Something one values does not require religion... and even if one loses faith in their religion, their values should stay relatively the same (such as someone not wanting to kill others, or steal, etc.). A religious belief is a faith-based, irrational claim supported by nothing but one's own experiences. It carries no inherent weight or value for anyone else other than the believer (beliefs aren't bad, of course, they can be very good for some individuals). People's values on the other hand, carry massive weight within a community, where someone with different values can upset the balance of that community and cause serious problems.
My point was relating to mindstorms claim that the apostles died for their belief in Jesus as Son of God... which I find odd considering one should be more willing to stand up for their values rather than their beliefs (i.e. Ghandi holding to the concept of ahimsa during his protests, regardless of his belief in the Hindu Godhead being relevant or not)
But in the end, not only can we not know what people actually believe, but there is no way of guaranteeing anything from that time is legitimately true, considering one of our only sources of history comes from a religious text filled with metaphor, parable and mythology. And other sources from the time are looked down upon as "heretical" by the orthodox community (i.e. the Nag Hammadi Library texts). So how are we supposed to determine anything?
What is best, I think, is to take what is attributed to Jesus through his teachings, and apply them to modern society, rather than get caught up in arguing whether or not he is the Son of God. That has absolutely no bearing on his ideas for loving-kindness, universal compassion and altruism. Him "dying for our sins" bears no value to us as a secular society. However, respecting others, not getting angry, and treating everyone like we wish to be treated? That is very important.Values and beliefs can be the same, which is what I said. You do not need to separate the two as you're trying to do. Having religious belief is not irrational. There are many reasons why I believe. None of which are irrational. Simply because I would be unable to prove to you my belief does not make it irrational. Calling someone's belief irrational because it's different is not well thought out in my opinion.
As I already explained, a person's value is simply what they deem more important. Values and beliefs can and often do have the meaning, but it will depend on whom you talk to. My values and beliefs are the same. Do you think the Apostles only died because they believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God? You really don't believe they died also because they believed in His teachings? Why couldn't it be both? Why do you have to separate the two? They obviously valued Jesus Christ's teachings enough to die for Him. I would think they died for values as well. I guess the question to you is, why do you think they separated the two?
I never said values required religion by the way.
Do a dance in one of those. 
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