Do you want Socialized Health Care?? POLL

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Smaug84

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#151 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

So you are denying that there are racial barriers imposed by those who have controlled the resources of this country from its birth?

Give me a break. Blacks didn't even have equal rights until our parent's generation.

Engrish_Major

That is the past. I'm talking about today.:roll:

So am I. The impoverished in this nation are there because of their situation in the recent past.

Walk into the inner city and shout out loud that there are no barriers imposed on their social progress.

Yet they recieve preferential treatment when seeking small business loans along with many other types of loans. So isn't there a tad tinge of hypocrisy when people can get a free ride through an Ivy League college because of the colour of their skin when there are people with better grades?

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Engrish_Major

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#152 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

So am I. The impoverished in this nation are there because of their situation in the recent past.

Walk into the inner city and shout out loud that there are no barriers imposed on their social progress.

LJS9502_basic

There is many more factors that go into the poverty of the innercity. Howver, this thread is about health care. So let's stay with that.

It is related. The naysayers say that we would be infringing on their rights if they are forced to pay taxes which contribute to the health of those less fortunate than them.

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Smaug84

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#153 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="Smaug84"]

I find it amazing that all these free market capitalists rarely mention such things as trusts & monopolies.

horgen123

Governments aren't always good when it comes to that.

That is true, but insurance companies aren't exactly good in the trust department.

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fvjonj

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#154 fvjonj
Member since 2003 • 661 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]fair trial IS a basic human right. its not necessarily there for protecting your rights, it's there so that justice is served.

acces to healthcare is a basic human right too. and it does protect another of your basic human rights: your right to life.

Engrish_Major

Ok...let me ask you since Engrish avoided the question.

Government funds social programs by collecting money from individuals. Why is it a right that those working should providefor another'spersonal life? In essence isn't that taking rights from the tax base?

Others seem to avoid the fact that other countries without corporations in charge of health care pay MUCH less than Americans for their coverage.

I was avoiding it because those assumptions that it will cost us more are wrong.

As a student in Canada my health care premiums were all of $1 per month for several years. The basic premiums were certainly more than that but as a starving student I told the government I couldn't afford the basic premiums and they told me $1 per month would be fine. Now that I'm in the work force I pay the full premiums.

I don't have issue with paying into the social pot to help others with their medical needs. I used it as a student and I'll gladly return the favour.

As for wait times, I can only speak from personal experience. To see my family doctor it is a 1 to 4 day wait. To see just any GP it is about a 15 minute wait. The longest I've waited to see a specialist has been 3 weeks. I haven't needed any major surgeries, so I can't comment on that. However, my father had a blocked artery and was in surgery the same day it was discovered. Other non life threatening surgeries he's required have taken up to 6 months.

Canada's system is far from perfect, but I'm glad it is affordable and available to all.

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Engrish_Major

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#155 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

Yet they recieve preferential treatment when seeking small business loans along with many other types of loans. So isn't there a tad tinge of hypocrisy when people can get a free ride through an Ivy League college because of the colour of their skin when there are people with better grades?

Smaug84

Because maybe it's time to give a little back.

Oh, us poor poor suffering American whites :roll:

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LJS9502_basic

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#156 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts

It is related. The naysayers say that we would be infringing on their rights if they are forced to pay taxes which contribute to the health of those less fortunate than them.

Engrish_Major

No. Those living in poverty have been giving medical threatment through the government already. They are not the ones that don't have health care. Generally, it's the lower middle class that earn a wage but either don't make enough...or don't want to purchase at the cost of health insurance. You are confusing two entirely different groups.

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Smaug84

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#157 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
Well we are on the dagger's edge people, if we sacrifice freedoms in this instance people get better health. Saying that though I'm skeptical about socialized medicine working in the US whne preventive medicine isn't taken seriously here. After all the US isn't known for being the most physically fit or eating healthy.
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LibertyorDeath1

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#158 LibertyorDeath1
Member since 2007 • 103 Posts

Here is a segment from a terrific article, The Right Vision Of Health Care, by Yaron Brook.

Prior to the government's entrance into the medical field, health care was regarded as a product to be traded voluntarily on a free market--no different from food, clothing, or any other important good or service. Medical providers competed to provide the best quality services at the lowest possible prices. Virtually all Americans could afford basic health care, while those few who could not were able to rely on abundant private charity.

Had this freedom been allowed to endure, Americans' rising productivity would have allowed them to buy better and better health care, just as, today, we buy better and more varied food and clothing than people did a century ago. There would be no crisis of affordability, as there isn't for food or clothing.

But by the time Medicare and Medicaid were enacted in 1965, this view of health care as an economic product--for which each individual must assume responsibility--had given way to a view of health care as a "right," an unearned "entitlement," to be provided at others' expense.

This entitlement mentality fueled the rise of our current third-party-payer system, a blend of government programs, such as Medicare and Medicaid, together with government-controlled employer-based health insurance (itself spawned by perverse tax incentives during the wage and price controls of World War II).

Today, what we have is not a system grounded in American individualism, but a collectivist system that aims to relieve the individual of the "burden" of paying for his own health care by coercively imposing its costs on his neighbors. For every dollar's worth of hospital care a patient consumes, that patient pays only about 3 cents out-of-pocket; the rest is paid by third-party coverage. And for the health care system as a whole, patients pay only about 14%.

The result of shifting the responsibility for health care costs away from the individuals who accrue them was an explosion in spending.

In a system in which someone else is footing the bill, consumers, encouraged to regard health care as a "right," demand medical services without having to consider their real price. When, through the 1970s and 1980s, this artificially inflated consumer demand sent expenditures soaring out of control, the government cracked down by enacting further coercive measures: price controls on medical services, cuts to medical benefits, and a crushing burden of regulations on every aspect of the health care system.

As each new intervention further distorted the health care market, driving up costs and lowering quality, belligerent voices demanded still further interventions to preserve the "right" to health care. And Republican politicians--not daring to challenge the notion of such a "right"--have, like Romney, Schwarzenegger and Bush, outdone even the Democrats in expanding government health care.

The solution to this ongoing crisis is to recognize that the very idea of a "right" to health care is a perversion. There can be no such thing as a "right" to products or services created by the effort of others, and this most definitely includes medical products and services. Rights, as our founding fathers conceived them, are not claims to economic goods, but freedoms of action.

You are free to see a doctor and pay him for his services--no one may forcibly prevent you from doing so. But you do not have a "right" to force the doctor to treat you without charge or to force others to pay for your treatment. The rights of some cannot require the coercion and sacrifice of others.

So long as Republicans fail to challenge the concept of a "right" to health care, their appeals to "market-based" solutions are worse than empty words. They will continue to abet the Democrats' expansion of government interference in medicine, right up to the dead end of a completely socialized system.

By contrast, the rejection of the entitlement mentality in favor of a proper conception of rights would provide the moral basis for real and lasting solutions to our health care problems--for breaking the regulatory chains stifling the medical industry; for lifting the government incentives that created our dysfunctional, employer-based insurance system; for inaugurating a gradual phase-out of all government health care programs, especially Medicare and Medicaid; and for restoring a true free market in medical care.

Such sweeping reforms would unleash the power of capitalism in the medical industry. They would provide the freedom for entrepreneurs motivated by profit to compete with each other to offer the best quality medical services at the lowest prices, driving innovation and bringing affordable medical care, once again, into the reach of all Americans.

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Engrish_Major

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#159 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts



I don't have issue with paying into the social pot to help others with their medical needs. I used it as a student and I'll gladly return the favour.

fvjonj

Man, I wish there were more people with that mentality here.

Although, looking at the Poll results, maybe there are. Not sure the TC anticipated that.

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LJS9502_basic

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#160 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts
[QUOTE="Smaug84"]

Yet they recieve preferential treatment when seeking small business loans along with many other types of loans. So isn't there a tad tinge of hypocrisy when people can get a free ride through an Ivy League college because of the colour of their skin when there are people with better grades?

Engrish_Major

Because maybe it's time to give a little back.

Oh, us poor poor suffering American whites :roll:

Uh uh...you have to be fair to all...not just who you chose. :|

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Smaug84

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#161 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="Smaug84"]

Yet they recieve preferential treatment when seeking small business loans along with many other types of loans. So isn't there a tad tinge of hypocrisy when people can get a free ride through an Ivy League college because of the colour of their skin when there are people with better grades?

Engrish_Major

Because maybe it's time to give a little back.

Oh, us poor poor suffering American whites :roll:

lol. So how long are we going to keep giving when it isn't producing noticable results? After all the best way to educate our youth starts at home, so perhaps children should be inside cracking the books instead of playing basketball all day. That goes for all ethnicities btw, just in case anyone tries to paint me out to be a member of the Aryan Nations.

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Thyeora

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#162 Thyeora
Member since 2005 • 1046 Posts
[QUOTE="Smaug84"]

Yet they recieve preferential treatment when seeking small business loans along with many other types of loans. So isn't there a tad tinge of hypocrisy when people can get a free ride through an Ivy League college because of the colour of their skin when there are people with better grades?

Engrish_Major

Because maybe it's time to give a little back.

Oh, us poor poor suffering American whites :roll:

So you call giving people jobs and college seats based on skin color rather than their credentials giving back? I worked my butt off to get good grades in highschool and maintain them in college. If I were to get rejected because I'm white and an african america with lower grades than I got accepted I would be upset. As I said earlier, there is nothing stopping them from learning on their own and working just as hard if not harder than me. Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

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Mr_sprinkles

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#163 Mr_sprinkles
Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts
[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"]well i don't personally provide for you. if i were to live in the same country as you, a tiny teeny bit of my taxes might go towards you. nobody personally provides for anyone. but yeah, if you need the help, i think everybody who can afford it has an obligation to chip in.
LJS9502_basic

Again...I'm not talking about altruism. The word right keeps getting repeated. When did it become a right that others should provide/support another?

its not a right, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing and shouldn't happen.
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Tiefster

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#164 Tiefster
Member since 2005 • 14639 Posts
I believe that the private sector should still be in place and that there will be restrictions on who can use the socialized system. If I'm making $60k a year I can afford to go to a private facility but if my neighbor is making $14k then they deserve to have free healthcare.

Higher taxes would provide more than just healthcare too. Imagine even the most expensive colleges being affordable to most. Roads would be better. Pretty much we would be happier and live better.

And most people wouldn't notice the difference in their wallet.
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LJS9502_basic

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#165 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts
its not a right, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing and shouldn't happen.
Mr_sprinkles

That's fine. I have no problem with an opinion that something need be done about health care. However, I do have a problem with the word right. Though that being said...I don't think socialized medicine is necessarily the answer.

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Engrish_Major

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#166 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Thyeora

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

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horgen

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#167 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127731 Posts

No one is saying they can't have medical treatment. But when did it become a "right" that it should be provided by the work of another?

LJS9502_basic

When they can't afford it?

I'm not into that "right" thing, but if you pay the same, but still can help others, and in the future recieve help back, help you have a "right" to.


As fvjonj said it.

I don't have issue with paying into the social pot to help others with their medical needs. I used it as a student and I'll gladly return the favour.

fvjonj

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weffer

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#168 weffer
Member since 2004 • 1004 Posts
Its in the best interests of the state to keep its populace in good health, in both preventative and sickness measures. However, I don't think that those who can pay for it be forced not to. A two tiered system is the best possible way to provide the best possible services for all citizens. Its funny, socialized medicine in Canada is something that we would to go to war over it seems, but in the US it seems that to get it would mean the communists win. A combiantion of both ideologies would work best, and is more then doable. Check out Sweden.
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LJS9502_basic

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#169 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts

I believe that the private sector should still be in place and that there will be restrictions on who can use the socialized system. If I'm making $60k a year I can afford to go to a private facility but if my neighbor is making $14k then they deserve to have free healthcare.

Higher taxes would provide more than just healthcare too. Imagine even the most expensive colleges being affordable to most. Roads would be better. Pretty much we would be happier and live better.

And most people wouldn't notice the difference in their wallet.
Tiefster

Dude....healthcare itself is expensive and now you want to add college to that....expensive nonetheless...and you say it wouldn't cost much more.:|

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willy279

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#170 willy279
Member since 2007 • 1729 Posts
this is a tough question
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Smaug84

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#171 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="Thyeora"]

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Engrish_Major

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

The root cause of poverty is ignorance, plain & simple. So if they want to end it they need to start pushing their children to study their asses off, or seek a job in various skilled labour positions. After all there is nothing wrong with being an electrician, plumber, welder etc. The only thing holding people back from working an honest days work is pride, nothing more, nothing less.

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willy279

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#172 willy279
Member since 2007 • 1729 Posts
this is a tough question
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Engrish_Major

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#173 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

Its in the best interests of the state to keep its populace in good health, in both preventative and sickness measures. However, I don't think that those who can pay for it be forced not to. A two tiered system is the best possible way to provide the best possible services for all citizens. Its funny, socialized medicine in Canada is something that we would to go to war over it seems, but in the US it seems that to get it would mean the communists win. A combiantion of both ideologies would work best, and is more then doable. Check out Sweden.weffer

It seems that American voters only see extremes. 'We are only free, or we are communists', etc. You'd think that with American ingenuity and inventiveness, we would be able to come up with a great hybrid solution.

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Engrish_Major

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#174 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Smaug84

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

The root cause of poverty is ignorance, plain & simple. So if they want to end it they need to start pushing their children to study their asses off, or seek a job in various skilled labour positions. After all there is nothing wrong with being an electrician, plumber, welder etc. The only thing holding people back from working an honest days work is pride, nothing more, nothing less.

You honestly believe that poor people don't put in an honest day's work just like the rest of us?

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horgen

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#175 horgen  Moderator
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Dude....healthcare itself is expensive and now you want to add college to that....expensive nonetheless...and you say it wouldn't cost much more.:|

LJS9502_basic
If you spent the same amount on extra taxes as you do on your health insurance instead. Would you notice a difference? :?

As far college. Maybe, maybe not. If they need to have the highest profit possible in everything they do, then yes. Otherwise maybe no.
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Thyeora

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#176 Thyeora
Member since 2005 • 1046 Posts
[QUOTE="Thyeora"]

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Engrish_Major

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

Did you read what I said earlier? I said that there are things like the internet and free public libraries. No one is stopping you, me, or anyone from researching something. If I wanted to learn about why the romans enjoyed watching people kill each other in pitched combat nothing is stopping me from going out and finding out for myself. These poor inner city wellfare recieving kids are too busy blaming everyone else and waiting for someone else to change things to do it themselves. If they want to change no one is stopping them. And people like you who sit there and feel bad for them only feed their self pity. I may not be a social scientist but it doesn't take a genius to realise that anyone can walk into a FREE and PUBLIC library.

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Engrish_Major

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#177 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Thyeora

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

Did you read what I said earlier? I said that there are things like the internet and free public libraries. No one is stopping you, me, or anyone from researching something. If I wanted to learn about why the romans enjoyed watching people kill each other in pitched combat nothing is stopping me from going out and finding out for myself. These poor inner city wellfare recieving kids are too busy blaming everyone else and waiting for someone else to change things to do it themselves. If they want to change no one is stopping them. And people like you who sit there and feel bad for them only feed their self pity. I may not be a social scientist but it doesn't take a genius to realise that anyone can walk into a FREE and PUBLIC library.

Just being smart does not net you a high paying job.

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LJS9502_basic

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#178 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts
f you spent the same amount on extra taxes as you do on your health insurance instead. Would you notice a difference? :?

As far college. Maybe, maybe not. If they need to have the highest profit possible in everything they does, then yes. Otherwise maybe no.horgen123

Yes...I pay very little for my insurance right now. If I had to pay increased taxes for socialized medicine....I would notice.

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Engrish_Major

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#179 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="horgen123"]f you spent the same amount on extra taxes as you do on your health insurance instead. Would you notice a difference? :?

As far college. Maybe, maybe not. If they need to have the highest profit possible in everything they does, then yes. Otherwise maybe no.LJS9502_basic

Yes...I pay very little for my insurance right now. If I had to pay increased taxes for socialized medicine....I would notice.

That's because you said your employer pays for it. We talked about this yesterday.

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Thyeora

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#180 Thyeora
Member since 2005 • 1046 Posts
[QUOTE="Thyeora"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Engrish_Major

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

Did you read what I said earlier? I said that there are things like the internet and free public libraries. No one is stopping you, me, or anyone from researching something. If I wanted to learn about why the romans enjoyed watching people kill each other in pitched combat nothing is stopping me from going out and finding out for myself. These poor inner city wellfare recieving kids are too busy blaming everyone else and waiting for someone else to change things to do it themselves. If they want to change no one is stopping them. And people like you who sit there and feel bad for them only feed their self pity. I may not be a social scientist but it doesn't take a genius to realise that anyone can walk into a FREE and PUBLIC library.

Just being smart does not net you a high paying job.

I guarantee you someone who is in highschool and takes the initiative to go and get further education despite lacking schooling has already shown characteristics that colleges and businesses are starving for.

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Smaug84

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#181 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="Smaug84"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Engrish_Major

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

The root cause of poverty is ignorance, plain & simple. So if they want to end it they need to start pushing their children to study their asses off, or seek a job in various skilled labour positions. After all there is nothing wrong with being an electrician, plumber, welder etc. The only thing holding people back from working an honest days work is pride, nothing more, nothing less.

You honestly believe that poor people don't put in an honest day's work just like the rest of us?

Dude, I am ****ing poor. I just believe that people aren't shown all their options, that they go through the motions while in a public school. Later they are encouraged to go to college when they have no idea what they want to do. As such they waste years of their life, build a mountain of debt, and those are the ones that even bother trying.

Wait a second, why am I responding to your post when its nothing more then a strawman? Nevermind, there really isn't any point in holding a conversation with you if you are going to twist me meaning left & right.

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yucky_straw

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#182 yucky_straw
Member since 2007 • 1225 Posts

It's more than obvious that this question is on everyone's mind.

My position:

I feel that almost every employer in America provides healthcare for a price.Some people choose not to pay for health-care, while others it's their top priority when getting a job.

The thing is when something is forced it ruins the free market. I'm all about a free economy.

JohnWinger

You know, 'free economy' sounds like something from heaven. It makes me think of a country with great economic growth while at the sametime keeping every citizen healthy. But, that's not what happens with a 'free economy'. With a free economy, people with healthcare have a better chance of living a long and healthy life. While those without it will not receive the treatment they need due to high hospital prices.

I mean, is there really any decision to make when asked if you want health-care? Everyone wants health-care. It shouldn't have to be a decision that you make. Those that don't want to pay for it do it because they can't afford to lose the money from their paycheck.

And the tax increase from socialized health-care is nothing that will keep you in the poorhouse. You can still be very rich in a country with socialized health-care. We're a people that will pay $600 for a cell phone, $400-$600 for a video-game console(Multiple ones for most of us). I don't think a little tax increase will destroy our bank accounts.

There are hospitals in America that turn people away because they have no health insurance. Dying people. People in pain. Children. Elderly. It doesn't matter. It's all about money. Do you really want to live in a country that turns it's back on sick citizens?

Yes, everything should be 'free'. And every economy, whether 'free' or not, should put it's people's health before money.

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LJS9502_basic

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#183 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts
That's because you said your employer pays for it. We talked about this yesterday.

Engrish_Major

And? He asked a question and I answered. My cost for health care would go up.

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horgen

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#184 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127731 Posts

Yes...I pay very little for my insurance right now. If I had to pay increased taxes for socialized medicine....I would notice.

LJS9502_basic
Huh :?
I meant if you spent X $ on insurance and swithced that with taxes instead.

Perhaps you should read about how they do it in the countries Northen Europe.
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blasto65_basic

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#185 blasto65_basic
Member since 2002 • 496 Posts
I say yes. Three are lots of family's that bust there buts to make ends meet and still cant afford health care so if by paying a little more to help others I am willing to do that. Because then when it is my time to need I know it will be there
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Smaug84

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#186 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="Thyeora"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Thyeora"]

Poor inner city kids are not being oppressed by anyone other than themselves.

Engrish_Major

You've never studied the root causes of poverty, have you? Or do you just tell that to yourself every night so that you can sleep better?

Did you read what I said earlier? I said that there are things like the internet and free public libraries. No one is stopping you, me, or anyone from researching something. If I wanted to learn about why the romans enjoyed watching people kill each other in pitched combat nothing is stopping me from going out and finding out for myself. These poor inner city wellfare recieving kids are too busy blaming everyone else and waiting for someone else to change things to do it themselves. If they want to change no one is stopping them. And people like you who sit there and feel bad for them only feed their self pity. I may not be a social scientist but it doesn't take a genius to realise that anyone can walk into a FREE and PUBLIC library.

Just being smart does not net you a high paying job.

Well our society isn't based on the intelligent netting high paying jobs. If that was the case then scientists would get the most money. Instead we live in a system of consumerism, and scientists aren't really selling many products, it is the corporations hiring them that do. Which tends to point towards businessmen, bankers, and some inventors making large sums of money.

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blasto65_basic

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#187 blasto65_basic
Member since 2002 • 496 Posts
[QUOTE="JohnWinger"]

It's more than obvious that this question is on everyone's mind.

My position:

I feel that almost every employer in America provides healthcare for a price.Some people choose not to pay for health-care, while others it's their top priority when getting a job.

The thing is when something is forced it ruins the free market. I'm all about a free economy.

yucky_straw

You know, 'free economy' sounds like a word from heaven. It makes me think of a country with great economic growth while at the sametime keeping every citizen healthy. But, that's not what happens with a 'free economy'. With a free economy, people with healthcare have a better chance of living a long and healthy life. While those without it will not receive the treatment they need due to high hospital prices.

I mean, is there really any decision to make when asked if you want health-care? Everyone wants health-care. It shouldn't have to be a decision that you make. Those that don't want to pay for it do it because they can't afford to lose the money from their paycheck.

And the tax increase from socialized health-care is nothing that will keep you in the poorhouse. You can still be very rich in a country with socialized health-care. We're a people that will pay $600 for a cell phone, $400-$600 for a video-game console(Multiple ones for most of us). I don't think a little tax increase will destroy our bank accounts.

There are hospitals in America that turn people away because they have no health insurance. Dying people. People in pain. Children. Elderly. It doesn't matter. It's all about money. Do you really want to live in a country that turns it's back on sick citizens?

Yes, everything should be 'free'. And every economy, whether 'free' or not, should put it's people's health before money.

Thank you very much you said it better then I ever could.

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LJS9502_basic

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#188 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts
Huh :?
I meant if you spent X $ on insurance and swithced that with taxes instead.

Perhaps you should read about how they do it in the countries Northen Europe.horgen123

I know what you meant. Most of my insurance cost is picked up by my employer. I pay very little to obtain the insurance. If I had to pay taxes....it would cost me quite a bit more.

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Smaug84

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#189 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
How about making it where the taxes that finance single payer health care come from legalized marijuana that is taxed at anywhere between 10 - 30%.
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LJS9502_basic

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#190 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts

How about making it where the taxes that finance single payer health care come from legalized marijuana that is taxed at anywhere between 10 - 30%.Smaug84

Probably need to be taxed a bit higher.....and if it's expensive and very easy to grow....once you legalize it....I'd think it would be homegrown.

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#191 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127731 Posts

I know what you meant. Most of my insurance cost is picked up by my employer. I pay very little to obtain the insurance. If I had to pay taxes....it would cost me quite a bit more.

LJS9502_basic

Isn't he providing for you now?

And are you sure he doesn't take that of you paycheck oneway or another?
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#192 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

I know what you meant. Most of my insurance cost is picked up by my employer. I pay very little to obtain the insurance. If I had to pay taxes....it would cost me quite a bit more.

horgen123


Isn't he providing for you now?

And are you sure he doesn't take that of you paycheck oneway or another?

It's part of our benefits package. I only pay a small percentage. Up until our latest governor:x...it was totally free.

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#193 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127731 Posts

Probably need to be taxed a bit higher.....and if it's expensive and very easy to grow....once you legalize it....I'd think it would be homegrown.

LJS9502_basic
It sure would. After what I've heard it is quite easy.
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Smaug84

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#194 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Probably need to be taxed a bit higher.....and if it's expensive and very easy to grow....once you legalize it....I'd think it would be homegrown.

horgen123

It sure would. After what I've heard it is quite easy.

Nothing is to stop the government from taxing the seeds, hell, I'll be patriotic and buy some seeds, if the government legalizes it of course.

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#195 Oleg_Huzwog
Member since 2007 • 21885 Posts

It's part of our benefits package. I only pay a small percentage. Up until our latest governor:x...it was totally free.

LJS9502_basic

I'm in the same boat as you, minus the governor part.

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#196 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127731 Posts

It's part of our benefits package. I only pay a small percentage. Up until our latest governor:x...it was totally free.

LJS9502_basic


A benefit that not only you contribute to. So you're helping others if something happens to them and likewise if something is happening to you.

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quiglythegreat

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#197 quiglythegreat
Member since 2006 • 16886 Posts

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]That's more a John Locke thing. In the version of our liberty, property is not really anyone's. If you have the resources to help someone, and someone takes those resources for that reason, that's not a good thing, but it's FAR better than having your money taken for something that's essentially bad or something. I mean, your money goes to subsidizing farms to make the food cheap, why not just buy the food and give it to the people who need it? Why should farmers get so many subsidies? Aren't they just collectively doing bad business by overproducing? Their stupidity should hardly be rewarded, but such as it is. Object to taxes in general, but arguing out of principle that taxes should not be used to pay for healthcare for those who cannot afford seems silly to me.
Oleg_Huzwog

An abundance of affordable food benefits everyone. I'm not sure the same can be said about universal health coverage. Transition to a system like that being used in Canada or the UK would only benefit those currently without private insurance.

A huge surplus of food results in farmers having their subsidized crop dropped into the sea. Why do you think bio-diesel is even being talked about? There's nothing to do with that much food if we aren't willing to give it away.
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#198 Smaug84
Member since 2003 • 8148 Posts
[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"]

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]That's more a John Locke thing. In the version of our liberty, property is not really anyone's. If you have the resources to help someone, and someone takes those resources for that reason, that's not a good thing, but it's FAR better than having your money taken for something that's essentially bad or something. I mean, your money goes to subsidizing farms to make the food cheap, why not just buy the food and give it to the people who need it? Why should farmers get so many subsidies? Aren't they just collectively doing bad business by overproducing? Their stupidity should hardly be rewarded, but such as it is. Object to taxes in general, but arguing out of principle that taxes should not be used to pay for healthcare for those who cannot afford seems silly to me.
quiglythegreat

An abundance of affordable food benefits everyone. I'm not sure the same can be said about universal health coverage. Transition to a system like that being used in Canada or the UK would only benefit those currently without private insurance.

A huge surplus of food results in farmers having their subsidized crop dropped into the sea. Why do you think bio-diesel is even being talked about? There's nothing to do with that much food if we aren't willing to give it away.

Actually for years the corporate farms were recieving subsidies to grow corn on their land, what they did was take the money from the government and sell it in Mexico, thus crippling many of their farms. Subsidies were a good idea at first because it was designed to help the little guy, now it is used as easy money for corporations.

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LJS9502_basic

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#199 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180120 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

It's part of our benefits package. I only pay a small percentage. Up until our latest governor:x...it was totally free.

horgen123


A benefit that not only you contribute to. So you're helping others if something happens to them and likewise if something is happening to you.

My insurance is what I pay a portion of each pay.

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#200 quiglythegreat
Member since 2006 • 16886 Posts
[QUOTE="horgen123"]Huh :?
I meant if you spent X $ on insurance and swithced that with taxes instead.

Perhaps you should read about how they do it in the countries Northen Europe.LJS9502_basic

I know what you meant. Most of my insurance cost is picked up by my employer. I pay very little to obtain the insurance. If I had to pay taxes....it would cost me quite a bit more.

There's a good chance, but you should also consider it possible that it's ultimately cheaper for your employer to provide 'free' healthcare. I assume you work for a business, and that means there's probably something in it for them as well. If they weren't saving money with this benefit somehow, they simply wouldn't offer it. The government is obviously just very inefficient, but the government can make laws to help make healthcare cheaper, for instance, by making patents for medicines harder to obtain, outlawing anything that could be considered a kickback for writing prescriptions (it works so that if they prescribe a set quota per month, they get into this 'club', etc, etc), and quite a few other things most likely.