Does the U.S. really have allies in the middle east?

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I'd rather we worried about our own long term growth thank you very much. Few if any countries would help us. Where did it become the responsibility of the US to provide aid to other countries? It's not. And we need to take care of the domestic side of things first before we throw money around we don't have.

LJS9502_basic

Yes. Cutting any and all foreign investment or aid would shoot US foreign legitimacy and opinion into the stratosphere. What a plan! I'm sure the GOP would like to hire you.

You have to support the world to not bankrupt the US. I'm sure you'll agree that the demand pre-GFC in America was unsistainable, on life support because of the real estate bubble. Now that AD has fallen, who is going to pick up any trade surpluses the US might begin to generate? Certainly not foreign countries if your 'plan' to cut aid is followed (because they don't have any infrastrucuture, let alone purchasing power).

The world is not as black and white as 'you were naughty, i will cut all assistance'. Sorry, it might seem easy, but it's just not.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]And you know he's not corrupt how? Things often change when someone gets the power anyway. IMO....politicians are almost all corrupt in some form. I don't want to generalize...but it's a rare politician that doesn't look out for number 1 when they have the opportunity.LJS9502_basic

lol if only you knew about Imran Khan.

Imran khan is an exception but such people will never get US support

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Oh I'd imagine that money does do somethings for the Pakistani people. I suppose if we want to show the benefits we should stop the aid. As for the intell community....considering the Pakistan government was helping hide Osama....that would explain the DELAY. But in the end...they found him.Danm_999

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13448589

failures happen

First paragraph is just completely wrong.

Second is completely wrong as well, because the CIA found him without the ISI's help (and the ISI couldn't do this, in their own backyard, because...?). Straight from the horse's mouth, Mike Rogers, chair of the PSCI.

Firebird-5

so they did find it with ISIs help...doesn't that prove they weren't complicit?

You have to support the world to not bankrupt the US. I'm sure you'll agree that the demand pre-GFC in America was unsistainable, on life support because of the real estate bubble. Now that AD has fallen, who is going to pick up any trade surpluses the US might begin to generate? Certainly not foreign countries if your 'plan' to cut aid is followed (because they don't have any infrastrucuture, let alone purchasing power).

The world is not as black and white as 'you were naughty, i will cut all assistance'. Sorry, it might seem easy, but it's just not.

Firebird-5

If we trade for cheaper goods and harm our own industry....is it a fair trade off?

It is just that easy. We give away too much money that is needed in this country. The middle cIass is disappearing. What do you think will eventually become of a country that is not healthy domestically?

At what cost do you support the world?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

lol if only you knew about Imran Khan.

Harisemo

Imran khan is an exception but such people will never get US support

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

We shouldn't stop any aid! Aid is most effective when it is used to promote long term growth, rather than to punish governments. Take for example, the Gomal Zam Dam, which USAID helped fund. Construction was completed last month and it will provide electricity for 25,000 households.

Firebird-5

What? Infrastrucutre is critical for development - how many vital parts of it don't need electricity. It provides for hospitals, communications, and modernises their economy. The US is trying to build states that will be parts of the world order, turning Pakistan into something of a rogue state like Iran or North Korea doesn't help at all.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

First paragraph is just completely wrong.

Second is completely wrong as well, because the CIA found him without the ISI's help (and the ISI couldn't do this, in their own backyard, because...?). Straight from the horse's mouth, Mike Rogers, chair of the PSCI.

Harisemo

so they did find it with ISIs help...doesn't that prove they weren't complicit?

What? Not on that particular operation. But the ISI has been cooperative in the past, and it has also been uncooperative. There are groups that sympathise with terrorists inside it.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

You have to support the world to not bankrupt the US. I'm sure you'll agree that the demand pre-GFC in America was unsistainable, on life support because of the real estate bubble. Now that AD has fallen, who is going to pick up any trade surpluses the US might begin to generate? Certainly not foreign countries if your 'plan' to cut aid is followed (because they don't have any infrastrucuture, let alone purchasing power).

The world is not as black and white as 'you were naughty, i will cut all assistance'. Sorry, it might seem easy, but it's just not.

LJS9502_basic

If we trade for cheaper goods and harm our own industry....is it a fair trade off?

It is just that easy. We give away too much money that is needed in this country. The middle cIass is disappearing. What do you think will eventually become of a country that is not healthy domestically?

At what cost do you support the world?

The US needs trade and bi/multilateral relations. Sorry, it just does. Protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbour economic policies don't work, let alone isolationism.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I know that most of the countries we try to help seem to have corrupt leaders. Of course...I'd like to see an exception. Problem areas in the world are in Africa, Middle East, and some of the Americas.LJS9502_basic

Imran khan is an exception but such people will never get US support

like I said you don't know Imran Khan. I guarantee you he's not corrupt

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] I think it is much better if you stop the "aid" since it is pretty much used to manipulate their governments. I bet those people would rather have you out of there for good than have a new dam which pretty much explains why US support is not that good.kuraimen

What? Infrastrucutre is critical for development - how many vital parts of it don't need electricity. It provides for hospitals, communications, and modernises their economy. The US is trying to build states that will be parts of the world order, turning Pakistan into something of a rogue state like Iran or North Korea doesn't help at all.

I'm not singing praises for USAID by any means. But the US shouldn't cut aid at all - unless you want these countries to sympathise more with other interests. A large part of the problem in Africa is the instability of the governments (and I believe the World Bank/African Development Bank is more active there... which doesn't exactly inspire confidence).

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

You have to support the world to not bankrupt the US. I'm sure you'll agree that the demand pre-GFC in America was unsistainable, on life support because of the real estate bubble. Now that AD has fallen, who is going to pick up any trade surpluses the US might begin to generate? Certainly not foreign countries if your 'plan' to cut aid is followed (because they don't have any infrastrucuture, let alone purchasing power).

The world is not as black and white as 'you were naughty, i will cut all assistance'. Sorry, it might seem easy, but it's just not.

Firebird-5

If we trade for cheaper goods and harm our own industry....is it a fair trade off?

It is just that easy. We give away too much money that is needed in this country. The middle cIass is disappearing. What do you think will eventually become of a country that is not healthy domestically?

At what cost do you support the world?

The US needs trade and bi/multilateral relations. Sorry, it just does. Protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbour economic policies don't work, let alone isolationism.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

Imran khan is an exception but such people will never get US support

Harisemo

like I said you don't know Imran Khan. I guarantee you he's not corrupt

I'm not singing praises for USAID by any means. But the US shouldn't cut aid at all - unless you want these countries to sympathise more with other interests. A large part of the problem in Africa is the instability of the governments (and I believe the World Bank/African Development Bank is more active there... which doesn't exactly inspire confidence).

Firebird-5

What? Not on that particular operation. But the ISI has been cooperative in the past, and it has also been uncooperative. There are groups that sympathise with terrorists inside it.

Firebird-5

ISI has caught the most al qaeda members. why would they do that if they were terrorist sympathisers?

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Not that I'm an isolationist...I'm not. But the US can produce most of what it needs. People just don't want to spend the money if they can get it cheaper from elsewhere. However, the world mostly imports food from the US which i a necessity. Who would have more of a problem....the one that can't feed it's people or the one that has to pay more for an automobile?

If we trade for cheaper goods and harm our own industry....is it a fair trade off?

It is just that easy. We give away too much money that is needed in this country. The middle cIass is disappearing. What do you think will eventually become of a country that is not healthy domestically?

At what cost do you support the world?

LJS9502_basic

The US needs trade and bi/multilateral relations. Sorry, it just does. Protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbour economic policies don't work, let alone isolationism.

US subsidies are actually damaging to international trade and therefore relations, an example of why 'not hurting domestic products' doesn't work. In fact, the US Chamber of Commerce subsidies are against WTO regulations. But they get away with it and destroy the livelyhoods of many farmers in the developing countries.

And I already explained before... you can't trade with anyone if they don't have any purchasing power. Foreign aid helps other states become capable members of the worldwide community, both politically and economically.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Until he's in power....I don't think you can make that determination.DroidPhysX

like I said you don't know Imran Khan. I guarantee you he's not corrupt

like have I met him? no

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

What? Infrastrucutre is critical for development - how many vital parts of it don't need electricity. It provides for hospitals, communications, and modernises their economy. The US is trying to build states that will be parts of the world order, turning Pakistan into something of a rogue state like Iran or North Korea doesn't help at all.

Firebird-5

I'm not singing praises for USAID by any means. But the US shouldn't cut aid at all - unless you want these countries to sympathise more with other interests. A large part of the problem in Africa is the instability of the governments (and I believe the World Bank/African Development Bank is more active there... which doesn't exactly inspire confidence).

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

What? Not on that particular operation. But the ISI has been cooperative in the past, and it has also been uncooperative. There are groups that sympathise with terrorists inside it.

Harisemo

ISI has caught the most al qaeda members. why would they do that if they were terrorist sympathisers?

I didn't say the ISI as a whole were terrorist sympathisers. I said that there are certain groups inside the Palestinian government and intelligence community that are.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

I'm not singing praises for USAID by any means. But the US shouldn't cut aid at all - unless you want these countries to sympathise more with other interests. A large part of the problem in Africa is the instability of the governments (and I believe the World Bank/African Development Bank is more active there... which doesn't exactly inspire confidence).

LJS9502_basic

A naive view. You do not need people to love you for aid to be beneficial to both them and you.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="Harisemo"]

like I said you don't know Imran Khan. I guarantee you he's not corrupt

Harisemo

like have I met him? no

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Yeah but most of that money goes to their corrupt governments in exchange of support. Why doesn't the US gives that amount of money to African countries that are probably in worse situations? because those countries can't help them get oil for example. Well the people in the ME are not stupid, they understand what all this "aid" is truly about, so it would be better if you let them help themselves, for example, like the other user here said, maybe if the west gets out of there they could finally form a true Pan-arabism movement and they can support themselves. The thing is that the people of the ME mostly want the US out so continuing with the "aid" wouldn't be very wise if you want to put them on your side.kuraimen

I'm not singing praises for USAID by any means. But the US shouldn't cut aid at all - unless you want these countries to sympathise more with other interests. A large part of the problem in Africa is the instability of the governments (and I believe the World Bank/African Development Bank is more active there... which doesn't exactly inspire confidence).

Plain wrong. How do you explain projects like the Gomal Zam Dam? What, is it only going to supply electricity to parties that the president holds?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

I'm not singing praises for USAID by any means. But the US shouldn't cut aid at all - unless you want these countries to sympathise more with other interests. A large part of the problem in Africa is the instability of the governments (and I believe the World Bank/African Development Bank is more active there... which doesn't exactly inspire confidence).

Firebird-5

A naive view. You do not need people to love you for aid to be beneficial to both them and you.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

The US needs trade and bi/multilateral relations. Sorry, it just does. Protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbour economic policies don't work, let alone isolationism.

Firebird-5

US subsidies are actually damaging to international trade and therefore relations, an example of why 'not hurting domestic products' doesn't work. In fact, the US Chamber of Commerce subsidies are against WTO regulations. But they get away with it and destroy the livelyhoods of many farmers in the developing countries.

And I already explained before... you can't trade with anyone if they don't have any purchasing power. Foreign aid helps other states become capable members of the worldwide community, both politically and economically.

You have an ally, a proven ally. But I haven't seen one single post mentioning it. It's Turkey, you know a fellow NATO member (who has the second largest army in NATO).

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]You assume those countries we throw billions at actually sympathize with the US. Mostly...they do not.

kuraimen

A naive view. You do not need people to love you for aid to be beneficial to both them and you.

the US doesn't march in and start telling people to build dams here there and everywhere. USAID provides support for development.

Why you think someone doesn't want clean, running water or electrcity is beyond me.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

I'm not singing praises for USAID by any means. But the US shouldn't cut aid at all - unless you want these countries to sympathise more with other interests. A large part of the problem in Africa is the instability of the governments (and I believe the World Bank/African Development Bank is more active there... which doesn't exactly inspire confidence).

Firebird-5

Plain wrong. How do you explain projects like the Gomal Zam Dam? What, is it only going to supply electricity to parties that the president holds?

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

A naive view. You do not need people to love you for aid to be beneficial to both them and you.

Firebird-5

the US doesn't march in and start telling people to build dams here there and everywhere. USAID provides support for development.

Why you think someone doesn't want clean, running water or electrcity is beyond me.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I said I'm not an isolationist. And trade is okay as long as steps are in place that don't hurt domestic products. As for aid....it's not justified IMO to take money off citizens to give to countries that in no way reciprocate anything back to said citizens.LJS9502_basic

US subsidies are actually damaging to international trade and therefore relations, an example of why 'not hurting domestic products' doesn't work. In fact, the US Chamber of Commerce subsidies are against WTO regulations. But they get away with it and destroy the livelyhoods of many farmers in the developing countries.

And I already explained before... you can't trade with anyone if they don't have any purchasing power. Foreign aid helps other states become capable members of the worldwide community, both politically and economically.

this has a bearing on what? a great way out of that rut is to get rid of the current account (that's trade) defecits.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

A naive view. You do not need people to love you for aid to be beneficial to both them and you.

Firebird-5

the US doesn't march in and start telling people to build dams here there and everywhere. USAID provides support for development.

Why you think someone doesn't want clean, running water or electrcity is beyond me.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Do you know Imran Khan? DroidPhysX

like have I met him? no

I'll leave GS if imran khan comes in power and turns out to be corrupt :P

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] So what does it say about democracy then? you're going to oblige people to accept "help" they don't really want? if they don't want it they can decide they don't want it. Would you oblige the egyptian people to keep Mubarak in power since he accepted all that "aid"? instead of letting them decide what to do with their country? DroidPhysX

the US doesn't march in and start telling people to build dams here there and everywhere. USAID provides support for development.

Why you think someone doesn't want clean, running water or electrcity is beyond me.

there does seem to be a very strong anti-US sentiment here. i thought rampant US imperialism was a view of high schoolers.

I can criticise a lot of US policy decisions... but come on, give credit where credit is due.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

US subsidies are actually damaging to international trade and therefore relations, an example of why 'not hurting domestic products' doesn't work. In fact, the US Chamber of Commerce subsidies are against WTO regulations. But they get away with it and destroy the livelyhoods of many farmers in the developing countries.

And I already explained before... you can't trade with anyone if they don't have any purchasing power. Foreign aid helps other states become capable members of the worldwide community, both politically and economically.

Firebird-5

this has a bearing on what? a great way out of that rut is to get rid of the current account (that's trade) defecits.

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

the US doesn't march in and start telling people to build dams here there and everywhere. USAID provides support for development.

Why you think someone doesn't want clean, running water or electrcity is beyond me.

Firebird-5

there does seem to be a very strong anti-US sentiment here. i thought rampant US imperialism was a view of high schoolers.

I can criticise a lot of US policy decisions... but come one, give credit where credit is due.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] So what does it say about democracy then? you're going to oblige people to accept "help" they don't really want? if they don't want it they can decide they don't want it. Would you oblige the egyptian people to keep Mubarak in power since he accepted all that "aid"? instead of letting them decide what to do with their country? kuraimen

the US doesn't march in and start telling people to build dams here there and everywhere. USAID provides support for development.

Why you think someone doesn't want clean, running water or electrcity is beyond me.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]You know the US isn't as strong as it used to be vis a vis jobs, trade, middle class?LJS9502_basic

this has a bearing on what? a great way out of that rut is to get rid of the current account (that's trade) defecits.

I have given you plenty of reasons. If you choose to ignore them or plain don't understand them isn't my problem.

The US gives away a very small amount as a percentage of GDP, countries like Norway and Sweden give more. Investing in the future of the world instead of the next minute is inherently a more sustainable policy.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Havent you noticed? Anything the US does is bad.kuraimen

there does seem to be a very strong anti-US sentiment here. i thought rampant US imperialism was a view of high schoolers.

I can criticise a lot of US policy decisions... but come one, give credit where credit is due.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Havent you noticed? Anything the US does is bad.kuraimen

there does seem to be a very strong anti-US sentiment here. i thought rampant US imperialism was a view of high schoolers.

I can criticise a lot of US policy decisions... but come one, give credit where credit is due.

American style capitalism, and its view by the rest of the developing world has fallen massively. The global hegemony is essentially over. The US does not sit behind every dark curtain controlling the world.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

the US doesn't march in and start telling people to build dams here there and everywhere. USAID provides support for development.

Why you think someone doesn't want clean, running water or electrcity is beyond me.

LJS9502_basic

They don't only blame the US they also blame their corrupt government that's why they overthrew Mubarak. But the US is part of the reason they have that corrupt government strongly in place to begin with. Maybe if the US leaves and stops supporting their corrupt governments then they can finally blame only their government and do something about it.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

there does seem to be a very strong anti-US sentiment here. i thought rampant US imperialism was a view of high schoolers.

I can criticise a lot of US policy decisions... but come one, give credit where credit is due.

LJS9502_basic

Actually many books and many sides of the story makes things quite evident.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="kuraimen"] Well then high schoolers would be the lucid ones in all this. US imperialism exists and it is very real. It only takes to read the last 60 years of history about the US dealings in the ME to realize how true that is.kuraimen

Actually many books and many sides of the story makes things quite evident.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="kuraimen"] Oh they want that but they don't want a puppet government for a foreign power in exchange of that and that's the core of the issue.kuraimen

They don't only blame the US they also blame their corrupt government that's why they overthrew Mubarak. But the US is part of the reason they have that corrupt government strongly in place to begin with. Maybe if the US leaves and stops supporting their corrupt governments then they can finally blame only their government and do something about it.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

there does seem to be a very strong anti-US sentiment here. i thought rampant US imperialism was a view of high schoolers.

I can criticise a lot of US policy decisions... but come one, give credit where credit is due.

Firebird-5

American style capitalism, and its view by the rest of the developing world has fallen massively. The global hegemony is essentially over. The US does not sit behind every dark curtain controlling the world.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Ah yes. One teacher, one book gives one both sides of any story.:|LJS9502_basic

Actually many books and many sides of the story makes things quite evident.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Well then high schoolers would be the lucid ones in all this. US imperialism exists and it is very real. It only takes to read the last 60 years of history about the US dealings in the ME to realize how true that is.kuraimen

American style capitalism, and its view by the rest of the developing world has fallen massively. The global hegemony is essentially over. The US does not sit behind every dark curtain controlling the world.

I myself am not an American. I simply talk that way because I'm studying IR and a lot of American policy lol. But yes, I agree the US has had many problems and isn't perfect, but we can't view them as completely evil either.

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

What? Not on that particular operation. But the ISI has been cooperative in the past, and it has also been uncooperative. There are groups that sympathise with terrorists inside it.

Firebird-5

ISI has caught the most al qaeda members. why would they do that if they were terrorist sympathisers?

I didn't say the ISI as a whole were terrorist sympathisers. I said that there are certain groups inside the Palestinian government and intelligence community that are.

point out those groups

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Why do you make the US a scapegoat for the ineffectiveness of one's government? As evidenced by the countries that take money....and do what they want...the US does not control the governments.LJS9502_basic

They don't only blame the US they also blame their corrupt government that's why they overthrew Mubarak. But the US is part of the reason they have that corrupt government strongly in place to begin with. Maybe if the US leaves and stops supporting their corrupt governments then they can finally blame only their government and do something about it.

I myself am not an American. I simply talk that way because I'm studying IR and a lot of American policy lol. But yes, I agree the US has had many problems and isn't perfect, but we can't view them as completely evil either.

Firebird-5

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]

They don't only blame the US they also blame their corrupt government that's why they overthrew Mubarak. But the US is part of the reason they have that corrupt government strongly in place to begin with. Maybe if the US leaves and stops supporting their corrupt governments then they can finally blame only their government and do something about it.

kuraimen

I'm actually against so much foreign aid being given out. Doesn't matter to me whether the government is corrupt or not. I don't think we should that much money away. Foreign Aid should be from a surplus.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

American style capitalism, and its view by the rest of the developing world has fallen massively. The global hegemony is essentially over. The US does not sit behind every dark curtain controlling the world.

Firebird-5

I myself am not an American. I simply talk that way because I'm studying IR and a lot of American policy lol. But yes, I agree the US has had many problems and isn't perfect, but we can't view them as completely evil either.