I was trying to discuss why you think that the government must take care of you. Why do you think that? You are not made by the government why do they have to make sure you dont get sick? They dont control what you do to mantain your health so why do I need to pay for it? Can you explain with out being selfish?
I was trying to discuss why you think that the government must take care of you. Why do you think that? You are not made by the government why do they have to make sure you dont get sick? They dont control what you do to mantain your health so why do I need to pay for it? Can you explain with out being selfish?flavort
your right...
Can you give me gods address so I can send him an angry letter? Hes the one that should be giving us the healthcare
[QUOTE="flavort"] I was trying to discuss why you think that the government must take care of you. Why do you think that? You are not made by the government why do they have to make sure you dont get sick? They dont control what you do to mantain your health so why do I need to pay for it? Can you explain with out being selfish?Fiji-Water
your right...
Can you give me gods address so I can send him an angry letter? Hes the one that should be giving us the healthcare
Are you not in control of your life? Your parents decided to have you so why dont they take care of you? Tell me why the government should? That is actually the question if you can answer it.
What ever happend to the common good in this country? Now its everone for themselves, taxes are poison. I personally don't mind helping someone who is having problems. And you ever think, maybe not everyone is as capable of taking care of themselves. If you think everyone born automatically has a fair shot at life, think again. There are still a lot of social issues that need to be adressed so kids don't grow up with parents who beat them, and dont give a crap about their education. Its not the kids fault their parents are trash? Who is going to look out for them?
Your last thread was locked because you posted it as more of a blog than an actual discussion. You basically asked a close-ended question and then followed it with a rant.
To answer your question, yes I do think the government is responsible for health care. We each responsible for health care as human beings, responsible for caring for eachother when we're sick - it's what seperates us from the animals.
I was trying to discuss why you think that the government must take care of you. Why do you think that? You are not made by the government why do they have to make sure you dont get sick? They dont control what you do to mantain your health so why do I need to pay for it? Can you explain with out being selfish?flavort
What ever happend to the common good in this country? Now its everone for themselves, taxes are poison. I personally don't mind helping someone who is having problems. And you ever think, maybe not everyone is as capable of taking care of themselves. If you think everyone born automatically has a fair shot at life, think again. There are still a lot of social issues that need to be adressed so kids don't grow up with parents who beat them, and dont give a crap about their education. Its not the kids fault their parents are trash? Who is going to look out for them?Darthmatt
Thats not the point here. What ever happened to the freedom to choose. Taxes are poison I dont mind helping people at all. I know I can help them more than the government can.
its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. obsolete2k1
Yeah, but then the rich folks who can afford $2000 shoes and their own health care don't think they should pay higher taxes for a service they dont need. IMO, thats a very un-compassonate way to live. Sure, they can have their money, but a society only works if everyone is commited to the common good. That means helping others even if you get nothing in return.
[QUOTE="flavort"] I was trying to discuss why you think that the government must take care of you. Why do you think that? You are not made by the government why do they have to make sure you dont get sick? They dont control what you do to mantain your health so why do I need to pay for it? Can you explain with out being selfish?Engrish_Major
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]What ever happend to the common good in this country? Now its everone for themselves, taxes are poison. I personally don't mind helping someone who is having problems. And you ever think, maybe not everyone is as capable of taking care of themselves. If you think everyone born automatically has a fair shot at life, think again. There are still a lot of social issues that need to be adressed so kids don't grow up with parents who beat them, and dont give a crap about their education. Its not the kids fault their parents are trash? Who is going to look out for them?flavort
Thats not the point here. What ever happened to the freedom to choose. Taxes are poison I dont mind helping people at all. I know I can help them more than the government can.
[QUOTE="obsolete2k1"]its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. Darthmatt
Yeah, but then the rich folks who can afford $2000 shoes and their own health care don't think they should pay higher taxes for a service they dont need. IMO, thats a very un-compassonate way to live. Sure, they can have their money, but a society only works if everyone is commited to the common good. That means helping others even if you get nothing in return.
So you think somebody has to be compassionate to somebody that abuses drugs and gets aids. I would rather help an kid with cancer.
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]What ever happend to the common good in this country? Now its everone for themselves, taxes are poison. I personally don't mind helping someone who is having problems. And you ever think, maybe not everyone is as capable of taking care of themselves. If you think everyone born automatically has a fair shot at life, think again. There are still a lot of social issues that need to be adressed so kids don't grow up with parents who beat them, and dont give a crap about their education. Its not the kids fault their parents are trash? Who is going to look out for them?flavort
Thats not the point here. What ever happened to the freedom to choose. Taxes are poison I dont mind helping people at all. I know I can help them more than the government can.
Taxes are poison until the road system is so underfunded they are turning paved roads back to dirt. Or they are poison until the city has to lay off police officers even when crime is increasing. You last comment is good. Help out, volunteer at a church or outreach. But some people need more than just volunteer work. The real problem is, the people who can afford to help the most, can also afford not to care.
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"][QUOTE="obsolete2k1"]its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. flavort
Yeah, but then the rich folks who can afford $2000 shoes and their own health care don't think they should pay higher taxes for a service they dont need. IMO, thats a very un-compassonate way to live. Sure, they can have their money, but a society only works if everyone is commited to the common good. That means helping others even if you get nothing in return.
So you think somebody has to be compassionate to somebody that abuses drugs and gets aids. I would rather help an kid with cancer.
There have been plenty of drug users and alchoholics who have been helped by compasionate people and turned their lives around. Those are people we need to help too, and often when they get cleaned up they help others. You can't be a selective compasionate person.
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]What ever happend to the common good in this country? Now its everone for themselves, taxes are poison. I personally don't mind helping someone who is having problems. And you ever think, maybe not everyone is as capable of taking care of themselves. If you think everyone born automatically has a fair shot at life, think again. There are still a lot of social issues that need to be adressed so kids don't grow up with parents who beat them, and dont give a crap about their education. Its not the kids fault their parents are trash? Who is going to look out for them?Darthmatt
Thats not the point here. What ever happened to the freedom to choose. Taxes are poison I dont mind helping people at all. I know I can help them more than the government can.
Taxes are poison until the road system is so underfunded they are turning paved roads back to dirt. Or they are poison until the city has to lay off police officers even when crime is increasing. You last comment is good. Help out, volunteer at a church or outreach. But some people need more than just volunteer work. The real problem is, the people who can afford to help the most, can also afford not to care.
I dont think it is fair to tell others what to do with their money. But there are plenty of wealthy that donate to others.
I don't see government provided healthcare as any different or more unfair to the individual than many other socialized programs no one seems to have a problem with, like public education and police and fire protection. How about prisons and roads? We happily pay for all of that stuff without batting an eye. Government squanders billions of dollars every year on pork projects like trophy bridges and unnecessary subsidies. Why should it become tight-fisted and require justification when asked to provide healthcare for its people.
Having said that, I haven't heard any plan yet that I really like, but I don't have any problem with the concept of government provided healthcare.
[QUOTE="obsolete2k1"]its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. flavort
Maybe they should provide me healthy food to keep me healthy.
With your thinking, the government would quit providing health care, so the families would have to pay it. That's 100 dollar co-pays plus practitioner bills. Any tests run would cost money as well. That could add up to thousand and thousands of dollars. And E.R. visits? Forget it. It'd be around 20,000 dollars for a life-saving surgery, and you expect middle c1ass families to pay these bills? Are you ill? People would be dieing left and right and be in constant debt because of it. Even if they lowered the prices of these services, then the doctors wouldn't get paid as much and it would lower the amount of doctors in the field because nobody will want to go to school for so long and work so hard to get average pay. They'd end up doing half-ass jobs like in third world countries.
Your thinking would be the down-fall of society. I pray you never become president.
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]What ever happend to the common good in this country? Now its everone for themselves, taxes are poison. I personally don't mind helping someone who is having problems. And you ever think, maybe not everyone is as capable of taking care of themselves. If you think everyone born automatically has a fair shot at life, think again. There are still a lot of social issues that need to be adressed so kids don't grow up with parents who beat them, and dont give a crap about their education. Its not the kids fault their parents are trash? Who is going to look out for them?flavort
Thats not the point here. What ever happened to the freedom to choose. Taxes are poison I dont mind helping people at all. I know I can help them more than the government can.
Taxes are poison until the road system is so underfunded they are turning paved roads back to dirt. Or they are poison until the city has to lay off police officers even when crime is increasing. You last comment is good. Help out, volunteer at a church or outreach. But some people need more than just volunteer work. The real problem is, the people who can afford to help the most, can also afford not to care.
I dont think it is fair to tell others what to do with their money. But there are plenty of wealthy that donate to others.
Thats good, but how many would donate if they didn't get a huge tax deduction? Its not fair to tell anyone to do anything they don't want to. Thats life. But in a public society, where the goal is to improve the common good of all people, sometimes those who have the most must make sacrifices to help those who have the least.
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"][QUOTE="obsolete2k1"]its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. Darthmatt
Yeah, but then the rich folks who can afford $2000 shoes and their own health care don't think they should pay higher taxes for a service they dont need. IMO, thats a very un-compassonate way to live. Sure, they can have their money, but a society only works if everyone is commited to the common good. That means helping others even if you get nothing in return.
So you think somebody has to be compassionate to somebody that abuses drugs and gets aids. I would rather help an kid with cancer.
There have been plenty of drug users and alchoholics who have been helped by compasionate people and turned their lives around. Those are people we need to help too, and often when they get cleaned up they help others. You can't be a selective compasionate person.
Being compassionate does not in anyway mean providing money to help a addict get clean. I was addicted to drugs and almost killed myself because of it. I made the choice to get help and it was through AA, NA cost me no money. People freely gave me help at no cost to them except for real compassion to help me and them at the same time. They support my recovery and give me the choice to ask for help when needed or to go back out to destroy myself.
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"][QUOTE="obsolete2k1"]its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. flavort
Yeah, but then the rich folks who can afford $2000 shoes and their own health care don't think they should pay higher taxes for a service they dont need. IMO, thats a very un-compassonate way to live. Sure, they can have their money, but a society only works if everyone is commited to the common good. That means helping others even if you get nothing in return.
So you think somebody has to be compassionate to somebody that abuses drugs and gets aids. I would rather help an kid with cancer.
There have been plenty of drug users and alchoholics who have been helped by compasionate people and turned their lives around. Those are people we need to help too, and often when they get cleaned up they help others. You can't be a selective compasionate person.
Being compassionate does not in anyway mean providing money to help a addict get clean. I was addicted to drugs and almost killed myself because of it. I made the choice to get help and it was through AA, NA cost me no money. People freely gave me help at no cost to them except for real compassion to help me and them at the same time. They support my recovery and give me the choice to ask for help when needed or to go back out to destroy myself.
You do know that programs to help addicts recover are funded by the government, right?
One affect about government health care that people over look is the possible economic benefit. This is a total assumption. Say everyone who makes under x amount a year gets free health service and has to pay Y more a year in taxes to pay for it. consider all the major manufacturing companies who are struggling to compete on a global market no longer have to dish out money for medical insurance. On top of that, some of the cost associated with medical care could be given back to the workers as a wage increase. I know I would be taking home more money each paycheck if I my work didn't provide and insurance plan.
[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]What ever happend to the common good in this country? Now its everone for themselves, taxes are poison. I personally don't mind helping someone who is having problems. And you ever think, maybe not everyone is as capable of taking care of themselves. If you think everyone born automatically has a fair shot at life, think again. There are still a lot of social issues that need to be adressed so kids don't grow up with parents who beat them, and dont give a crap about their education. Its not the kids fault their parents are trash? Who is going to look out for them?Darthmatt
Thats not the point here. What ever happened to the freedom to choose. Taxes are poison I dont mind helping people at all. I know I can help them more than the government can.
Taxes are poison until the road system is so underfunded they are turning paved roads back to dirt. Or they are poison until the city has to lay off police officers even when crime is increasing. You last comment is good. Help out, volunteer at a church or outreach. But some people need more than just volunteer work. The real problem is, the people who can afford to help the most, can also afford not to care.
I dont think it is fair to tell others what to do with their money. But there are plenty of wealthy that donate to others.
Thats good, but how many would donate if they didn't get a huge tax deduction? Its not fair to tell anyone to do anything they don't want to. Thats life. But in a public society, where the goal is to improve the common good of all people, sometimes those who have the most must make sacrifices to help those who have the least.
Plenty would donate. That is there choice. I do insane amounts of stuff through my church. There are groups that work off donations of money and supplies, and most important, hands. I can use my time to do the work not give money to a government that has never solved any problem that they we give money to. They are greedy as well, the most greedy business ever. If they fix a problem they dont get any more money for it. If a I get the problem solved then I dont have as much work to do when it is done and then I have somebody that has been through the hard times that is willing to do the same for others.
[QUOTE="jlh47"]how about people just get health insurance... it doesn't cost that much a month... Engrish_Major
It does if it is not covered by a company you work for.
umm no it doesn't... it's a lot less than car insurance... now if you have a huge family then it could cost 2-3 hundred a month. small price to pay to know your family is insured.
[QUOTE="obsolete2k1"]its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. _Marisa_
Maybe they should provide me healthy food to keep me healthy.
With your thinking, the government would quit providing health care, so the families would have to pay it. That's 100 dollar co-pays plus practitioner bills. Any tests run would cost money as well. That could add up to thousand and thousands of dollars. And E.R. visits? Forget it. It'd be around 20,000 dollars for a life-saving surgery, and you expect middle c1ass families to pay these bills? Are you ill? People would be dieing left and right and be in constant debt because of it. Even if they lowered the prices of these services, then the doctors wouldn't get paid as much and it would lower the amount of doctors in the field because nobody will want to go to school for so long and work so hard to get average pay. They'd end up doing half-ass jobs like in third world countries. This is so false. The reason prices are so high now is because of insurance, not lack of it. The medical establishment is run by insurance monopolies. They say how much everything is. Get rid of insurance and prices become affordable. Why you ask? Because they have too. Just look at the plastic surgery industry. It's set up so people can afford the service because it's not covered under your insurance policy. As for having third world doctors, just take a peek at countries with socialized medicine and where the majority of their doctors come from. All social medicine will do is kill inovation and make the best brightest do something else because they can make more money elsewhere.
[QUOTE="jlh47"]how about people just get health insurance... it doesn't cost that much a month... Engrish_Major
It does if it is not covered by a company you work for.
I dont pay too much. It is a lot to my wife since she is from Canada. I pay for hers out of pocket because it is cheaper to pay for the doctors visits myself than to pay for insurance and buy insurance for major medical, or get that through work and pay for the doc visits.
[QUOTE="jlh47"]how about people just get health insurance... it doesn't cost that much a month... jlh47
It does if it is not covered by a company you work for.
umm no it doesn't... it's a lot less than car insurance... now if you have a huge family then it could cost 2-3 hundred a month. small price to pay to know your family is insured.
My car insurance was far less than my health insurance, until I got benefits from my employer.
[QUOTE="obsolete2k1"]its the government's responsibility to provide healthcare because people pay for it through taxes. MahlerFreak
Maybe they should provide me healthy food to keep me healthy.
With your thinking, the government would quit providing health care, so the families would have to pay it. That's 100 dollar co-pays plus practitioner bills. Any tests run would cost money as well. That could add up to thousand and thousands of dollars. And E.R. visits? Forget it. It'd be around 20,000 dollars for a life-saving surgery, and you expect middle c1ass families to pay these bills? Are you ill? People would be dieing left and right and be in constant debt because of it. Even if they lowered the prices of these services, then the doctors wouldn't get paid as much and it would lower the amount of doctors in the field because nobody will want to go to school for so long and work so hard to get average pay. They'd end up doing half-ass jobs like in third world countries. This is so false. The reason prices are so high now is because of insurance, not lack of it. The medical establishment is run by insurance monopolies. They say how much everything is. Get rid of insurance and prices become affordable. Why you ask? Because they have too. Just look at the plastic surgery industry. It's set up so people can afford the service because it's not covered under your insurance policy. As for having third world doctors, just take a peek at countries with socialized medicine and where the majority of their doctors come from. All social medicine will do is kill inovation and make the best brightest do something else because they can make more money elsewhere.
In the States it is illegal to be denied in a medical emergency. Your right about the insurance companies. I dont think they are the answer but the is a solution that needs to be found. Like you said, I pay for my wifes doc visits out of my pocket. It cost less than insurance.
[QUOTE="jlh47"]how about people just get health insurance... it doesn't cost that much a month... Engrish_Major
It does if it is not covered by a company you work for.
umm no it doesn't... it's a lot less than car insurance... now if you have a huge family then it could cost 2-3 hundred a month. small price to pay to know your family is insured.
My car insurance was far less than my health insurance, until I got benefits from my employer.
I have to agree. When I was switching jobs there was a period when I was uninsured. I had an option to go COBRA, and the biweekly amount was comical. It was almost triple what I pay for car insurance. And I am single, no kids, just insuring me.
Why do people get so mad about govnt paying for health-care really? If government was wiser about what they spent tax money on, there is probably a way to make it happen. I mean pissing away a few billion per month On BS in Iraq is pretty stupid after we know all the pretext was trumped up. That makes me mad, I didn't choose that. How about opening the boarded up library in Highland park, or keeping the Pontiac police force open? Maybe thats not as important.
In the States it is illegal to be denied in a medical emergency. Your right about the insurance companies. I dont think they are the answer but the is a solution that needs to be found. Like you said, I pay for my wifes doc visits out of my pocket. It cost less than insurance.
flavort
So, what happens if your wife has a medical emergency? Or gets a chronic illness? You will go bankrupt.
tc, you act as if people have a choice in getting sick or notg-unit248
No If people took better care of them selves there would not be as many health problems to pay for. Everybody gets sick, espacially if you dont take care of yourself.
In the States it is illegal to be denied in a medical emergency. Your right about the insurance companies. I dont think they are the answer but the is a solution that needs to be found. Like you said, I pay for my wifes doc visits out of my pocket. It cost less than insurance.
Engrish_Major
So, what happens if your wife has a medical emergency? Or gets a chronic illness? You will go bankrupt.
didnt some guy try to kill his wife who had a cronic illness because he couldnt afford the medical bills?
[QUOTE="g-unit248"]tc, you act as if people have a choice in getting sick or notflavort
No If people took better care of them selves there would not be as many health problems to pay for. Everybody gets sick, espacially if you dont take care of yourself.
another way to look at it is the fact the the govt / insurance holders are already paying for everyones healthcare, about 47 million americans dont have health insurance and this does not include the illegal aliens using our hospitals, so is anyone going to tell me that all those people pay their medical bills? well the illegals dont even have a real address so any of their bills is a kick in the balls to every taxpayer, and the money has to come from somewhere for those of the 47 million accounted for who cant afford it, so the way i look at it is we might was well have a real healthcare system put in place because those of us who are legitimate citizens are already paying a lot more than we should
In the States it is illegal to be denied in a medical emergency. Your right about the insurance companies. I dont think they are the answer but the is a solution that needs to be found. Like you said, I pay for my wifes doc visits out of my pocket. It cost less than insurance.
Engrish_Major
So, what happens if your wife has a medical emergency? Or gets a chronic illness? You will go bankrupt.
It is illegal to be denied emergency medical care. What do you do about the long waits for medical procedures in a socialized healthcare system where people die before their treatment date?
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