Europe and the United States

I don't think Europe should be obligated in helping us with our wars. WWII and Afghanistan are two entirely different situations.

I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for Europeprogenitorvirus

[QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for EuropeDylan_11

US stood against the Soviet Union because they feared a communist takeover of Europe would eventually threaten them. Europeans are not significantly threatened by Afghanistan; what does Europe have to gain other than making new enemies?

Comparing the Iraq war to WW2 is silly.Dylan_11

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"][QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for Europeprogenitorvirus

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"][QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for Europeprogenitorvirus

So you think European nations should enter a war they disagree with, their soldiers losing their lives in the process because of some fanciful notion of 'owing the US'? Why don't you sign up and go on the front line? Assuming you don't want to, how can you expect soldiers from another country to put their lives at risk fighting a war for the US?

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Comparing the Iraq war to WW2 is silly.funsohng

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Comparing the Iraq war to WW2 is silly.funsohng

Perhaps an informal rule would suggest that it is justified, but under international law, it wasn't. The US, probably the country that should set an example of following the laws, basically threw the UN rulebook out of the window.

And the US attacked Afghanistan to fight against the organization responsible for 9/11.

I despise the Europeans leadership more than the US, but I cant fault them for manipulating the US for its own interests. The responsibility lies with Americans to resist manipulations and learn from your cousins and perceive everything in the lens of slef interests, One of the biggest and quickest steps to jolt the Europeans would be for the US to completely pull out from NATO and close its overseas bases. The message would be not, that America doesn't care, but reducing costs and war guarantees are in the self interests of the US and its people. for those that have sentimental concerns about your cousins, the EU has over 500 million people and bigger GDP then the US, they are more than capable of handling their own domestic self defense needs and engage in all the conflicts for "human rights" the council of Europe love to parrot about all the time

I assure, the best friends America can have are Asians. Asians countries wont lecture and dictate to you like your western cousins, who constantly hassle you on even local domestic issues, banning any form of corporal punishment, even a smack on the butt. Really, they whine and whine about everyhting and its always human rights and bef9ore you say you support human rights, you dont realize how the council of Europe sees it. take the abolition of the death penalty? They say its not enough to ban capital punishment, but they must also tackle the reason for the high rate of suicide by inmates. You can see evidence of what they want by looking at the UK prisons where inmate have more things than the average citizen.

[QUOTE="funsohng"][QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Comparing the Iraq war to WW2 is silly.one_plum

What is our specific goal in Afghanistan? Please answer that.

What is our specific goal in Afghanistan? Please answer that.

SgtKevali

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

What is our specific goal in Afghanistan? Please answer that.

funsohng

And how do you plan on accomplishing that objective? By killing every single Taliban member?.You realize that because of "collateral damage" even more people will join up in resistance?

[QUOTE="funsohng"][QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

What is our specific goal in Afghanistan? Please answer that.

SgtKevali

And how do you plan on accomplishing that objective? By killing every single Taliban member?.You realize that because of "collateral damage" even more people will join up in resistance?

Why does it even matter :|

Why is this even a topic? We shouldn't be having conversations/becomplaining about"WTF THIS COUNTRY ISN'T HELP MY COUNTRY KILL THESE PEOPLE"

Where has this ego come from? I'm talking about people in general...Are none of you furious that such a thing like War is still around after all the mastery and knowledge we have obtained?

Grings my gears.

So you think European nations should enter a war they disagree with, their soldiers losing their lives in the process because of some fanciful notion of 'owing the US'? Why don't you sign up and go on the front line? Assuming you don't want to, how can you expect soldiers from another country to put their lives at risk fighting a war for the US?

poptart

Don't even start that BS. Go to Europe, and you'll see thousands upon thousands of American soldiers who gave their life's buried there, do you think those soldiers wanted to die? I was stationed in Germany from 2005-2008, and visited the Battle of the Bulge, and Normandy memorials. You won't even believe the older German population how thankful they we're for the US, freeing them from oppression from the Nazi's, and the Russians.

I don't necessarily agree with the poster regarding "Owing the US", but either way you look at it-- terrorism isn't just the United State's problem, it's also a European problem. Many terrorists are coming from Europe, being trained, and taught. The Madrid bombings, the London Bus bombings-- terrorism is a real problem, and this I agree that Europe should stand by the United State's regarding the situation in Afghanistan.

Not only that but NATO's policy is "An attack on one, is an attack on all". And whoever the poster above said, well NATO won in Kosovo, well you do realize that as the poster said, a lot of the military equipment was provided by the US? NATO wouldn't have been able to get the job as fast if it wasn't for U.S. The U.S along with a few other countries(Russia), are the only countries with a bomber force. NATO couldn't put of put on a spectacular airshow if it wasn't for U.S B-52's, B-1s, and B-2. It would have required more sorties from the other NATO allies.

Either way the United State's should leave NATO. The organization has pretty much lost its cause after the break-up of the Soviet Union, and has been one of the most ineffective organizations in the world. When NATO took over command in Afghanistan in 2006, everything came crashing down. NATO's Rules of Engagements are ridiculous compared to the one's we had in Iraq. I was deployed to Iraq in 2006-2007, and Afghanistan 2009-2010.

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

What is our specific goal in Afghanistan? Please answer that.

funsohng

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"][QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for Europeprogenitorvirus

And the United States wouldnt exist without france, or britain for that matter since they brought the people there, so i guess you owe them.

[QUOTE="poptart"]

So you think European nations should enter a war they disagree with, their soldiers losing their lives in the process because of some fanciful notion of 'owing the US'? Why don't you sign up and go on the front line? Assuming you don't want to, how can you expect soldiers from another country to put their lives at risk fighting a war for the US?

TF626

Don't even start that BS. Go to Europe, and you'll see thousands upon thousands of American soldiers who gave their life's buried there, do you think those soldiers wanted to die? I was stationed in Germany from 2005-2008, and visited the Battle of the Bulge, and Normandy memorials. You won't even believe the older German population how thankful they we're for the US, freeing them from oppression from the Nazi's, and the Russians.

I don't necessarily agree with the poster regarding "Owing the US", but either way you look at it-- terrorism isn't just the United State's problem, it's also a European problem. Many terrorists are coming from Europe, being trained, and taught. The Madrid bombings, the London Bus bombings-- terrorism is a real problem, and this I agree that Europe should stand by the United State's regarding the situation in Afghanistan.

Not only that but NATO's policy is "An attack on one, is an attack on all". And whoever the poster above said, well NATO won in Kosovo, well you do realize that as the poster said, a lot of the military equipment was provided by the US? NATO wouldn't have been able to get the job as fast if it wasn't for U.S. The U.S along with a few other countries(Russia), are the only countries with a bomber force. NATO couldn't put of put on a spectacular airshow if it wasn't for U.S B-52's, B-1s, and B-2. It would have required more sorties from the other NATO allies.

What BS are you referring to? I was merely stating a contrary position to his view and pointing out the fallacy that Europe is indebted to the US. I am from the UK so yes of course I'm more than aware of the loses suffered by every allied nation in WW2 including those of the US, however that is going off topic.

Secondly yes terrorism is a problem, however going into war with Iraq and Afghanistan is not every nation's idea of a solution, and this peculiar expectancy that due to the might of the US military and its heavy contribution to NATO that every country should follow them blindly jars with me.

World Police Force

We send half a battalions worth of troops to afghan on 6 month rotations, and we'll keep doing so until Nato decides it is no longer required. Obviously "europe" is a broader term because there are some countries that do send troops and do support the US in their police efforts.

Fun fact: not all European countries are in Afghanistan...

Also Massive big difference between WW2 and the war in afghanistan.

[QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for EuropeDylan_11

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"][QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for EuropeSnakewiseman

Why does it even matter :|

Why is this even a topic? We shouldn't be having conversations/becomplaining about"WTF THIS COUNTRY ISN'T HELP MY COUNTRY KILL THESE PEOPLE"

Where has this ego come from? I'm talking about people in general...Are none of you furious that such a thing like War is still around after all the mastery and knowledge we have obtained?

Grings my gears.

Joshywaa

Maybe the Europeans are mad that the U.S. didn't join WW2 until 1942? I'm not belittling the contributions and sacrifices American soldiers made during the war, but you guys didn't want to get involved until you were directly attacked at Pearl Harbour. Seeing as Europe was not directly attacked by in a major terrorist attack, can you really blame them for doing the same thing you guys did (not getting involved)? I don't think the Europeans owe the U.S. or anyone anything. Besides, the Europeans, Canadians, Australians and dozens of other nations have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan,so it's not like we abondoned theU.S.Many didn't join you in Iraq because it was a completely unnecesary and unprovoked war.

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"][QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for Europeprogenitorvirus

Maybe the Europeans are mad that the U.S. didn't join WW2 until 1942? I'm not belittling the contributions and sacrifices American soldiers made during the war, but you guys didn't want to get involved until you were directly attacked at Pearl Harbour. Seeing as Europe was not directly attacked by in a major terrorist attack, can you really blame them for doing the same thing you guys did (not getting involved)? I don't think the Europeans owe the U.S. or anyone anything. Besides, the Europeans, Canadians, Australians and dozens of other nations have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan,so it's not like we abondoned theU.S.Many didn't join you in Iraq because it was a completely unnecesary and unprovoked war.

redstorm72

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

Maybe the Europeans are mad that the U.S. didn't join WW2 until 1942? I'm not belittling the contributions and sacrifices American soldiers made during the war, but you guys didn't want to get involved until you were directly attacked at Pearl Harbour. Seeing as Europe was not directly attacked by in a major terrorist attack, can you really blame them for doing the same thing you guys did (not getting involved)? I don't think the Europeans owe the U.S. or anyone anything. Besides, the Europeans, Canadians, Australians and dozens of other nations have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan,so it's not like we abondoned theU.S.Many didn't join you in Iraq because it was a completely unnecesary and unprovoked war.

LJS9502_basic

I'd describe it as profiteering. They almost sent most allied nations bankrupt and the only reason they didn't join the war sooner was becuase they where making too much money from it.

It's the usual story, they're afraid of making enemies. The terrorists have scared them into submission with all the Bomb threats.

And the United States wouldnt exist without france, or britain for that matter since they brought the people there, so i guess you owe them.

warmaster670

The people from Europe that settled this country were not SENT here. They were fleeing the oppression of their governments.

As for Europe being a bunch of ingrates: Gee, big surprise there. You know why the French plant trees along the roads? Cuz the Germans like to march in the shade.

I say we pull out of NATO and close all our bases in the EU. Then we'll make it clear that since Europe is FAR more dependent on mid east oil than the US, we will no longer secure the oil shipping lanes in the Persian/Arabian gulf. Let them protect their own oil supplies.

The EU has gotten away with spending a much lower percentage of GDP on their military cuz they've been allowed to remain secure under the umbrella of US protection. Time for that to stop.

It's the usual story, they're afraid of making enemies. The terrorists have scared them into submission with all the Bomb threats.

Snipes_2

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"][QUOTE="progenitorvirus"]I am not comparing WWII to Iraq. I am saying just how much the US has always been there for EuropeSnakewiseman

This is foreign policy, not a children's game. You shouldn't talk in terms of "owing" somebody. Has the US been invaded as France was during WW2. No, not even close.

[QUOTE="warmaster670"]

And the United States wouldnt exist without france, or britain for that matter since they brought the people there, so i guess you owe them.

collegeboy64

The people from Europe that settled this country were not SENT here. They were fleeing the oppression of their governments.

As for Europe being a bunch of ingrates: Gee, big surprise there. You know why the French plant trees along the roads? Cuz the Germans like to march in the shade.

I say we pull out of NATO and close all our bases in the EU. Then we'll make it clear that since Europe is FAR more dependent on mid east oil than the US, we will no longer secure the oil shipping lanes in the Persian/Arabian gulf. Let them protect their own oil supplies.

The EU has gotten away with spending a much lower percentage of GDP on their military cuz they've been allowed to remain secure under the umbrella of US protection. Time for that to stop.

Consider, maybe Europe doesn't think it is necessary to spend the inordinant amount of $ on defence that we do.

[QUOTE="warmaster670"]

And the United States wouldnt exist without france, or britain for that matter since they brought the people there, so i guess you owe them.

collegeboy64

The people from Europe that settled this country were not SENT here. They were fleeing the oppression of their governments.

As for Europe being a bunch of ingrates: Gee, big surprise there. You know why the French plant trees along the roads? Cuz the Germans like to march in the shade.

I say we pull out of NATO and close all our bases in the EU. Then we'll make it clear that since Europe is FAR more dependent on mid east oil than the US, we will no longer secure the oil shipping lanes in the Persian/Arabian gulf. Let them protect their own oil supplies.

The EU has gotten away with spending a much lower percentage of GDP on their military cuz they've been allowed to remain secure under the umbrella of US protection. Time for that to stop.

Pull out of NATO, rofl, really, maybe you should pull out of United Nations too. Then you can do whatever you want!

banning any form of corporal punishment, even a smack on the butt. Really, they whine and whine about everyhting and its always human rights and bef9ore you say you support human rights, you dont realize how the council of Europe sees it. take the abolition of the death penalty? They say its not enough to ban capital punishment, but they must also tackle the reason for the high rate of suicide by inmates. You can see evidence of what they want by looking at the UK prisons where inmate have more things than the average citizen.

majwill24

People are against corporal punishment? OMG, the horror!!!

They are not killing inmates? Bastards :x

Inmates have more than the average citizen? Color me sceptical.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

It's the usual story, they're afraid of making enemies. The terrorists have scared them into submission with all the Bomb threats.

Dylan_11

Or maybe we're wrong to have ever been in Iraq/Afghanistan? What you are suggesting is unilateralism which is a very, very ignorant ideal.

[QUOTE="Dylan_11"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

It's the usual story, they're afraid of making enemies. The terrorists have scared them into submission with all the Bomb threats.

Snipes_2

I think a more neutral way to have said it is that Europe does not believe that intervention in the Middle East is worth all the trouble.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Dylan_11"]Only the US of A is man enough to take on the terrorists head on! :roll: Keep thinking that.one_plum

I think a more neutral way to have said it is that Europe does not believe that intervention in the Middle East is worth all the trouble.

Didn't Chancellor Angela Merkel assure the Israeli Knesset of Germany's unconditional support in the event of war with Iran?

Afghanistan aside, Germans may have to get used to the idea of putting German boots on the ground in Iran.

I strongly suspect that Germany's government will have to stage a "terrorist attack" (like America's 9/11 or Britain's 7/7) to rally the support of the country's populace. But that dire prediction deserves a thread of its own.