Fiat makes final payment to US gov't for Chrysler bailout

[QUOTE="Ace6301"]After seeing the arguments for why we shouldn't have bailed out the auto industry I think I may have to save this for future reference and laughs. Obviously Ideology (hat doesn't work very well) > preventing the loss of thousands of jobs and potentially making the recession into something hugely damaging rather than just a minor misstep. SpartanMSU

Not bailing out the auto industry and bailing them out are BOTH based on ideologies.:lol:

Nice try though!

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Not bailing out the auto industry and bailing them out are BOTH based on ideologies.:lol:

Nice try though!

SpartanMSU

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Not bailing out the auto industry and bailing them out are BOTH based on ideologies.:lol:

Nice try though!

SpartanMSU

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

I dont believe Ford ever took government money. GM and Chrysler did, but GM has been doing much better. However, part of the problem is that the US car companies are at a disadvantage. Automotive jobs were good jobs in the US - that paid high wages and good benefits. They helped build the middle class. But they are competing against countries whose workers are paid significantly less. Those cost differences have to come out of somewhere. Plus given the social systems of a lot of the other countries, their workers are in a sense subsidized as they get health and other benefits directly from the state whereas our workers get those benefits from the company.

sonicare

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] Technically. One worked though and the other would have lead to the loss of thousands of jobs. I think you can see which ideology is superior. Nice try though. Also are you seriously saying that these automotive companies are as worthwhile as a "hole digging company"? Dear god man, I've seen many examples of poor understanding of how the economy works here on OT but no. Just...just no.CaveJohnson1

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

BMD004

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

BMD004

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] Technically. One worked though and the other would have lead to the loss of thousands of jobs. I think you can see which ideology is superior. Nice try though. Also are you seriously saying that these automotive companies are as worthwhile as a "hole digging company"? Dear god man, I've seen many examples of poor understanding of how the economy works here on OT but no. Just...just no.CaveJohnson1

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

[QUOTE="topsemag55"]WASHINGTON - The Treasury Department said Thursday it has exited its investment in Chrysler LLC after Italian automaker Fiat SpA purchased the U.S. government's remaining holdings in the auto company. Fiat paid $560 million to the Treasury Department for the government's 98,000 shares. Fiat has run the company since it emerged from bankruptcy protection in June 2009. $11.2 billion (out of 12.5 billion) of the assistance has been repaid, Treasury says. Treasury said it likely won't recover the remaining $1.3 billion. Chrysler has made a remarkable turnaround from two years ago, when it was rescued by the government. Story here.YellowOneKinobi

Same story..... except this one reads "US Loses $1.3 Billion in Exiting Chrysler"

:lol:

Misleading Subject Line is Misleading

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

EsYuGee

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

[QUOTE="EsYuGee"]

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]I don't exactly need to have magic powers, just a computer and I can look at quarterly profit for the company. Seriously it's not hard, if you need help with this just ask.

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

SF_KiLLaMaN

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

[QUOTE="SF_KiLLaMaN"]

[QUOTE="EsYuGee"] We should have let them Fail. Go Bankrupt. Break them up. Sell there assets. . . . Back in 1979. When they had their FIRST BAILOUT.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

BMD004

[QUOTE="EsYuGee"]

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]I don't exactly need to have magic powers, just a computer and I can look at quarterly profit for the company. Seriously it's not hard, if you need help with this just ask.

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="SF_KiLLaMaN"] The Auto industry is one on of the biggest industries in the U.S. You want to see what a depression looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. You want to see what extremely high unemployment looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. You want to see what a lower standard of living in the U.S. looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. There is NO viable reason to let an industry that big fail. As much as I hate the term, the big 3 are too big to fail. I don't think people understand how important the auto industry is to the U.S. economy.

Ace6301

[QUOTE="SF_KiLLaMaN"]

[QUOTE="EsYuGee"] We should have let them Fail. Go Bankrupt. Break them up. Sell there assets. . . . Back in 1979. When they had their FIRST BAILOUT.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

EsYuGee

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="BMD004"]What makes you think the entire auto industry would fail because Chrysler files for chapter 11? Chrysler's capital and resources (including labor) would be used by other's who can do better with it.BMD004

[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] You act as if Chrysler isn't some massive business whose failure would affect millions, not just those associated with the automotive industry. either. Their failure would cause their suppliers to take a massive hit and possibly go under as a result. The economy isn't some shallow thing where companies and governments are some stand alone pillars. Everything is leaning on each other.mattbbpl

It's not 70 in most places? It's 70 in Texas... and there was talk of raising it to 85.BMD004

We should have let them Fail. Go Bankrupt. Break them up. Sell there assets. . . . Back in1979. When they had their FIRST BAILOUT.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

EsYuGee

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="BMD004"]The market will naturally reallocate resources if Chrysler went under. You act like if Chrysler tanked that all of those people won't ever have a job again because the company they worked for went under.BMD004

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="Ace6301"] Technically. One worked though and the other would have lead to the loss of thousands of jobs. I think you can see which ideology is superior. Nice try though. Also are you seriously saying that these automotive companies are as worthwhile as a "hole digging company"? Dear god man, I've seen many examples of poor understanding of how the economy works here on OT but no. Just...just no.CaveJohnson1

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

My god. I'm not going to explain it again...To think that if I don't support the bailout means I just want Michigan's economy to do poorly is ridiculous. Keeping alive failing businesses is NOT a good economic policy. If the jobs aren't attached to a business which is in demand, then that business should fail. This ends up being better for the economy in the long-run. Just like digging holes. It's not attached to anything productive, because the market deemed it so. Again, it's not good economic policy to artificially keep a failing business alive.

I don't like to argue in circles. I am done with you.

And yes, I've lived in Michigan all of my life. Why the hell would I lie about that?

[QUOTE="EsYuGee"]

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]I don't exactly need to have magic powers, just a computer and I can look at quarterly profit for the company. Seriously it's not hard, if you need help with this just ask.

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

SF_KiLLaMaN

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

So was the agricultural industry back when this country first started. Nations shift to different industries, most of the time the ones which they are most efficient in. Ever heard of Compartive Advantage? I remember learning this stuff in high school economics...not too complicated.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

One worked? Can I see your crystal ball? Can you see the unseen consquences? My god, your must have some astonishing magical powers.

It was analogy made in order for you to get an understanding of basic economics, which obviously went way over your head, because it's clear you still don't understand it.

It's pretty clear you don't have a basic understanding of economics or different schools of economic thought.

SpartanMSU

And you just rattle on about how I don't understand economics without explaining how. I'm not an expert on it, but the tax payers being paid back, the government making money in taxes, the michigan economy having hundreds of thousands of jobs saved, that all sounds like good things.

Like I said, you have to have your head in one of those holes you've been busy digging because it's really clear that michigan is in trouble, and you act like other businesses will fill the hole left by chrysler, but that's unrealilistic, what is realilistic is a mass immigration out of the state for economic reasons, 15% unemployment is already pretty bad, and I don't know why you would want to make it worse.

I can see where people outside this state have doubts, questioning whether the money would be paid back is the big thing, which it has been, but living in this state, I can't believe you don't see how this wouldn't devestate the economy, even from a selfish standpoint, if chrysler goes under there's a good chance you would lose your job, and if you aren't employed it would make it harder to find one. I really think you're lying about living in michigan for that reason, you seem to be fighting against common sense there. No matter who you are or what you do, you will be affected negatively. It's like you just want things to go bad, you don't want a company to pay people, you don't care if the company pays back it's loan, you don't care that it generates alot of taxes for the state, and you don't care about the millions of lives that would be hurt really badly by this, you just don't seem to care.

My god. I'm not going to explain it again...To think that if I don't support the bailout means I just want Michigan's economy to do poorly is ridiculous. Keeping alive failing businesses is NOT a good economic policy. If the jobs aren't attached to a business which is in demand, then that business should fail. This ends up being better for the economy in the long-run. Just like digging holes. It's not attached to anything productive, because the market deemed it so. Again, it's not good economic policy to artificially keep a failing business alive.

I don't like to argue in circles. I am done with you.

And yes, I've lived in Michigan all of my life. Why the hell would I lie about that?

Actually keeping it alive was beneficial, Nobody lost money, gov't and company made money, people kept jobs, what's the problem?

It's obviously in demand if it's turning a profit and sales are increasing. The hole analogy is pretty stupid, cars are a product people want. Also you don't seem to have even a basic understanding of what's going on in this state, a company crashing is just hurts people and moves money out of the economy as forein companies take it's place.

But you're obvious to the bolded part it's damn impressive that you can't figure this out.

I don't know why you'd lie, but you certainly don't seem to be aware about what's going on about you, maybe you buried your head with this whole hole company you started.

Also, you need to put some thought into your analogies, even if it's a small amount. You're comparing something that does nothing productive to a profitable car company. how have you not relized that?

[QUOTE="SF_KiLLaMaN"]

[QUOTE="EsYuGee"] We should have let them Fail. Go Bankrupt. Break them up. Sell there assets. . . . Back in 1979. When they had their FIRST BAILOUT.

How long till the next bailout? Yes, it saved jobs this time, but when you make cars that are routinely the poster childs of least reliable cars, it's only a matter of time before their business goes under (again). Profitability is one thing, but when you continue to make products that are of lower quality or have a reputation of lower quality your business prospects aren't very bright. How many owners has Chrysler had in the past 10 years. The Germans didn't want it. The Americans didn't want it. Now the Italians have it. How long before the Italians don't want it?

SpartanMSU

So was the agricultural industry back when this country first started. Nations shift to different industries, most of the time the ones which they are most efficient in. Ever heard of Compartive Advantage? I remember learning this stuff in high school economics...not too complicated.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="SF_KiLLaMaN"] The Auto industry is one on of the biggest industries in the U.S. You want to see what a depression looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. You want to see what extremely high unemployment looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. You want to see what a lower standard of living in the U.S. looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. There is NO viable reason to let an industry that big fail. As much as I hate the term, the big 3 are too big to fail. I don't think people understand how important the auto industry is to the U.S. economy.

CaveJohnson1

So was the agricultural industry back when this country first started. Nations shift to different industries, most of the time the ones which they are most efficient in. Ever heard of Compartive Advantage? I remember learning this stuff in high school economics...not too complicated.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="SF_KiLLaMaN"] The Auto industry is one on of the biggest industries in the U.S. You want to see what a depression looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. You want to see what extremely high unemployment looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. You want to see what a lower standard of living in the U.S. looks like? Get rid of the auto industry. There is NO viable reason to let an industry that big fail. As much as I hate the term, the big 3 are too big to fail. I don't think people understand how important the auto industry is to the U.S. economy.

CaveJohnson1

So was the agricultural industry back when this country first started. Nations shift to different industries, most of the time the ones which they are most efficient in. Ever heard of Compartive Advantage? I remember learning this stuff in high school economics...not too complicated.

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

So was the agricultural industry back when this country first started. Nations shift to different industries, most of the time the ones which they are most efficient in. Ever heard of Compartive Advantage? I remember learning this stuff in high school economics...not too complicated.

BMD004

It's noteworthy to say he lives in michigan, yet doesn't care if this company fails, he acts like other companies will magically pop out of nowhere and fill the void, but that's boarderline delusional. What will probably happen is a mass immigration of millions after a 20% unemployment rates kills the economy, I don't think he's aware of how that would probably cause him to lose his job as well.

With any luck the government won't have to bail them out again.

If the governments (Canada did help as well) did not bail out Chrysler my city would be out more than 20k jobs at least,Including my parents. That's what the government did, it saved a industry and a lot of people. And they got the money back so what is the issue?Ringx55

[QUOTE="Ringx55"]If the governments (Canada did help as well) did not bail out Chrysler my city would be out more than 20k jobs at least,Including my parents. That's what the government did, it saved a industry and a lot of people. And they got the money back so what is the issue?Ace6301

You're right. They are making some models that are selling relatively well. I didn't say they weren't. They're also making vehicles that have some of the lowest reliability ratings in the industry. Passing the buck the Daimler-Benz doesn't mean much. Still, while most companies in the industry are moving toward smaller, more efficent vehicles, Chrysler is pushing gas guzzlers again. What do their commercials have? The Durango, Charger, Challenger, 300? EsYuGee

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Ringx55"]If the governments (Canada did help as well) did not bail out Chrysler my city would be out more than 20k jobs at least,Including my parents. That's what the government did, it saved a industry and a lot of people. And they got the money back so what is the issue?Ringx55

That's because Ford has a long history of actually making good cars..That's why it's not only successful domestically, but also around the whole world. GM made awful cars in the late 20th-early 21st and some terrible business decisions, same goes for Chrystler.

[QUOTE="Ringx55"][QUOTE="Ace6301"] According to some people there's no demand for cars and that turning a profit isn't a signal that the company is relevant. taj7575

That's because Ford has a long history of actually making good cars..That's why it's not only successful domestically, but also around the whole world. GM made awful cars in the late 20th-early 21st and some terrible business decisions, same goes for Chrystler.

[QUOTE="EsYuGee"] You're right. They are making some models that are selling relatively well. I didn't say they weren't. They're also making vehicles that have some of the lowest reliability ratings in the industry. Passing the buck the Daimler-Benz doesn't mean much. Still, while most companies in the industry are moving toward smaller, more efficent vehicles, Chrysler is pushing gas guzzlers again. What do their commercials have? The Durango, Charger, Challenger, 300? topsemag55

I own an old Dodge Ram 3500. One of the best vehicles ever made by Chrysler. Got almost 200, 000 miles on it. But all that good is washed away when you compare it to say a Jeep Wrangler or a Chrysler Sebring. Good luck with that 300. I hope the powertrain is better. I know someone who bought a new one a few years back and had a lot of problems with the powertrain. Nice ride though.

Bottom line is: Improve your quality or perception of quality, while paying attention to the market trends, or go home.

Here you go Ace. Do some reading, it's go for you.

The auto-bailouts were a joke. Sorry, bud.

Article 1

Article 2

Article 3

Here you go Ace. Do some reading, it's go for you.

The auto-bailouts were a joke. Sorry, bud.

Article 1

Article 2

Article 3

SpartanMSU

3 facts

1. The government was paid back in full. (gov't and citizens that footed the money win)

2. The company is not growing and sales are increasing on what is now profit. (state, gov't and citizens win)

3. Jobs have been saved and more are being created because the company is not only making a profit, but sales are increasing (workers win)

My question is, who loses? Guess it's bad the gov't/workers now have more sources of money (I don't see the logic in that)

Now why do you want michigan to fail so badly? I know you've probably got ur head stuck in the ground with all these holes you keep talking about digging, but despite that. I can't believe that you are unaware that 4 companies in Michigan (4th being dow) are the States biggest sources of income, every single one employs 50,000 people are more in this state alone, and the does not include other business that work for those companies which would account for hundreds of thosands of jobs. Ccompanies, including business' ranked 5-20 in this are very small compared to those 4, this is a huge problem with the Michigan economy, and maybe you're unaware of this. The gap is so big, that if one of those 4 went down, there would not be anybody to pick up the slack.

The current unemployment rate in Michigan is over 15%, and if chrysler went down, hundreds of thousands would become unemployed, thousands would have to leave this state, and I don't know how you could consider that a good thing.

Seriously, if you dislike Michigan this much, you should just leave, wanting this states economy to go down in flames isn't helping anybody.

Next order of business: Bring Alfa Romeo to the US?

right wing propaganda sites.CaveJohnson1

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"] right wing propaganda sites.topsemag55

I prefer American as well. Unfortunately the last time I bought American (Chrysler in fact) it was manufactured in Mexico.

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"] right wing propaganda sites.topsemag55

I'm not sure if this is true, but I've got a steriotype in my head that conservatives actually are more likely to buy american, especially trucks, and liberals are more likely to buy small gas efficient forein cars. I don't know if that's true, I've just seen a few things that would suggest that to me.

[QUOTE="topsemag55"][QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"] right wing propaganda sites.worlock77

I prefer American as well. Unfortunately the last time I bought American (Chrysler in fact) it was manufactured in Mexico.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I've got a steriotype in my head that conservatives actually are more likely to buy american, especially trucks, and liberals are more likely to buy small gas efficient forein cars. I don't know if that's true, I've just seen a few things that would suggest that to me.CaveJohnson1

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Here you go Ace. Do some reading, it's go for you.

The auto-bailouts were a joke. Sorry, bud.

Article 1

Article 2

Article 3

CaveJohnson1

3 facts

1. The government was paid back in full. (gov't and citizens that footed the money win)

2. The company is not growing and sales are increasing on what is now profit. (state, gov't and citizens win)

3. Jobs have been saved and more are being created because the company is not only making a profit, but sales are increasing (workers win)

My question is, who loses? Guess it's bad the gov't/workers now have more sources of money (I don't see the logic in that)

Now why do you want michigan to fail so badly? I know you've probably got ur head stuck in the ground with all these holes you keep talking about digging, but despite that. I can't believe that you are unaware that 4 companies in Michigan (4th being dow) are the States biggest sources of income, every single one employs 50,000 people are more in this state alone, and the does not include other business that work for those companies which would account for hundreds of thosands of jobs. Ccompanies, including business' ranked 5-20 in this are very small compared to those 4, this is a huge problem with the Michigan economy, and maybe you're unaware of this. The gap is so big, that if one of those 4 went down, there would not be anybody to pick up the slack.

The current unemployment rate in Michigan is over 15%, and if chrysler went down, hundreds of thousands would become unemployed, thousands would have to leave this state, and I don't know how you could consider that a good thing.

Seriously, if you dislike Michigan this much, you should just leave, wanting this states economy to go down in flames isn't helping anybody.

Did you forget to read the article? It explains everything much better than I can. I don't feel like typing a lesson in economics in essay format for you.

But go ahead, think with your heart and not your brain.

Oh, and yes, I just want Michigan to fail, your right. It's not like there are other solutions that would end up better for Michigan and the entire economy in the long run. No, couldn't be. Anyone who doesn't agree with CaveJohnson1 is clearly and idiot and has a strong desire for Michigan to fail. That must be it.

And please, tell me, what do the articles have to do with the facts given? They are facts...taken straight from government documents acquired under the Freedom of Information Act. They didn't just get the information out of thin air.:lol: