Fifty Percent Hike in Taxes for Ammunition and Eleven Percent on Guns

[QUOTE="lamprey263"]raising prices of cigarettes hasn't helped people stop smoking, it just makes those who are addicted pay moreSerraph105

[QUOTE="Serraph105"][QUOTE="lamprey263"]raising prices of cigarettes hasn't helped people stop smoking, it just makes those who are addicted pay morejunglist101

[QUOTE="consoletroll"][QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

 

yes well you might be more of a gun nut than a rational person concerned with home defense. After all they make pepper spray grenades, which will always be more effective and safer to toss in a room vs blinding yourself with muzzle flashes in the dark to shoot what you think is an intruder. And if its a family member sneaking in after their curfew, the pepper spray grenade will cause some sore eyes vs a funeral.

 

And yes im an american, but a rational one.

BeardMaster

well you have a point. here is a video showing how easy it is to shoot and hit targets while pepper sprayed.

But yes pepper spray grenade for multiple targets, even just old school pepper spray is fine. As you can put a few bullets in someone and not disable them, but pepper spray even near their face disables most targets.

gun enthusiasts seem to underestimate pepper spray.

When it comes down to it adrenaline may allow you to push through the pain but it isn't going to get you through two to the chest. Practice makes perfect, which is why troops and law enforcement visit the range often. Civilians who want to practice don't have the luxury of free ammo like troops and cops do.

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

[QUOTE="consoletroll"] Pepper spray? Really? Stop pretending like you know something about self defense. Have you ever heard of a flash light ? Will you pepper spray an intruder with deadly weapon or multiple intruders? Your delusional. If you are ever a victim of a violent crime, then you may understand.ad1x2

well you have a point. here is a video showing how easy it is to shoot and hit targets while pepper sprayed.

But yes pepper spray grenade for multiple targets, even just old school pepper spray is fine. As you can put a few bullets in someone and not disable them, but pepper spray even near their face disables most targets.

gun enthusiasts seem to underestimate pepper spray.

When it comes down to it adrenaline may allow you to push through the pain but it isn't going to get you through two to the chest. Practice makes perfect, which is why troops and law enforcement visit the range often. Civilians who want to practice don't have the luxury of free ammo like troops and cops do.

pain isnt a factor, im pretty tolerant to pain.. simply put you cant see. If someone pepoper sprayed me then tried to run away, despite my pain tolerance and blood lust i wouldnt be able to chase them down.

Cpould you put 2 in the chest of someone while pepper sprayed?

[QUOTE="ad1x2"]

[quote=" BeardMaster"]

well you have a point. here is a video showing how easy it is to shoot and hit targets while pepper sprayed.

But yes pepper spray grenade for multiple targets, even just old school pepper spray is fine. As you can put a few bullets in someone and not disable them, but pepper spray even near their face disables most targets.

gun enthusiasts seem to underestimate pepper spray.

BeardMaster

When it comes down to it adrenaline may allow you to push through the pain but it isn't going to get you through two to the chest. Practice makes perfect, which is why troops and law enforcement visit the range often. Civilians who want to practice don't have the luxury of free ammo like troops and cops do.

pain isnt a factor, im pretty tolerant to pain.. simply put you cant see. If someone pepoper sprayed me then tried to run away, despite my pain tolerance and blood lust i wouldnt be able to chase them down.

Cpould you put 2 in the chest of someone while pepper sprayed?

I know you have not been here long but you do realize that you are trying to argue with some people at are police officers and current and former military personnel right? I will let you figure out who is who.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

pretty much.

the only people I know with guns, and that enjoy using them frequently, are folks that go hunting.

I can see it getting expensive if you like to go target shooting, though.

But as far as home defense goes, well, if you are that scared and that concerned, the tax hike should not be much of an issue.  A box of ammo and a basic pistol or shotgun won't set you back too much either way.

I imagine the goal of the tax hike is to prevent stockpiling, and to generally help people think twice about owning a gun lol.

BeardMaster

The goal of the tax hike is probably to keep guns away from criminals, as they tend to be statistically much poorer than your average family concerned with home defense.

EDIT: well scratch that the goal of the tax hike is to generate tax revenue, the primary side effect is keeping guns away from criminals.

An increase in taxes that only creates $84 Million in extra revenue above what is already taken in from the current taxes on guns and ammo. Not really a good way to generate more revenue if it is only gonna add that small amount if it is supposed to go towards a $174 Billion "problem" that can be solved in other ways.

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

[QUOTE="ad1x2"] I was pepper sprayed before while in Iraq. That stuff hurts but it didn't hurt so much that I couldn't move. Had to go through an obstacle course right after being sprayed. I volunteered to get sprayed again for shits and giggles but my platoon sergeant wouldn't let me.

When it comes down to it adrenaline may allow you to push through the pain but it isn't going to get you through two to the chest. Practice makes perfect, which is why troops and law enforcement visit the range often. Civilians who want to practice don't have the luxury of free ammo like troops and cops do.

WhiteKnight77

pain isnt a factor, im pretty tolerant to pain.. simply put you cant see. If someone pepoper sprayed me then tried to run away, despite my pain tolerance and blood lust i wouldnt be able to chase them down.

Cpould you put 2 in the chest of someone while pepper sprayed?

I know you have been here long but you do realize that you are trying to argue with some people at are police officers and current and former military personnel right? I will let you figure out who is who.

And? I have plenty of friends in the military, one that is a cop. I dont idolize them, great folk but frankly they werent exactly college material, and thats putting it lightly. So i dont exactly hold the opinion of police and military to a higher standard.

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

pain isnt a factor, im pretty tolerant to pain.. simply put you cant see. If someone pepoper sprayed me then tried to run away, despite my pain tolerance and blood lust i wouldnt be able to chase them down.

Cpould you put 2 in the chest of someone while pepper sprayed?

BeardMaster

I know you have been here long but you do realize that you are trying to argue with some people at are police officers and current and former military personnel right? I will let you figure out who is who.

And? I have plenty of friends in the military, one that is a cop. I dont idolize them, great folk but frankly they werent exactly college material, and thats putting it lightly. So i dont exactly hold the opinion of police and military to a higher standard.

Don't need to idolize anyone, just understand that they have a level of expertise that you don't, just like Dave states.

It won't pass. Other things like cuts to education and infrastruture would pass though.

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

pain isnt a factor, im pretty tolerant to pain.. simply put you cant see. If someone pepoper sprayed me then tried to run away, despite my pain tolerance and blood lust i wouldnt be able to chase them down.

Cpould you put 2 in the chest of someone while pepper sprayed?

BeardMaster

I know you have been here long but you do realize that you are trying to argue with some people at are police officers and current and former military personnel right? I will let you figure out who is who.

And? I have plenty of friends in the military, one that is a cop. I dont idolize them, great folk but frankly they werent exactly college material, and thats putting it lightly. So i dont exactly hold the opinion of police and military to a higher standard.

You also have to factor in that some people aren't affected by it as much as others. We had a guy from out in the country get sprayed and it had almost no effect on him. He claimed that it was because he was working on farms his whole life before he enlisted and he just got used to dealing with a lot of chemicals.

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

I know you have been here long but you do realize that you are trying to argue with some people at are police officers and current and former military personnel right? I will let you figure out who is who.

ad1x2

And? I have plenty of friends in the military, one that is a cop. I dont idolize them, great folk but frankly they werent exactly college material, and thats putting it lightly. So i dont exactly hold the opinion of police and military to a higher standard.

You also have to factor in that some people aren't affected by it as much as others. We had a guy from out in the country get sprayed and it had almost no effect on him. He claimed that it was because he was working on farms his whole life before he enlisted and he just got used to dealing with a lot of chemicals.

Im not sure what the experience is though? home defense. im guessing our homes have been broken into an equal number of times, zero. Thus equally experienced.

If anything is telling its that police carry pepper spray and stun guns as part of their standard issue equipment, they wouldnt if they were ineffective.

hell this guy was shot 6 times and was still juking and dodging throughout. So for every guy thats immune to pepper spray there is probably another that can absorb 6 bullets without being incapacitated.

[QUOTE="ad1x2"]

It's not about being held to a higher standard, it is about experience. I would trust an experienced mechanic on information to troubleshoot my car before I would trust a teenager who never drove but plays a lot of racing games. It stings when you get sprayed but you can still see if you blink really fast. 

You also have to factor in that some people aren't affected by it as much as others. We had a guy from out in the country get sprayed and it had almost no effect on him. He claimed that it was because he was working on farms his whole life before he enlisted and he just got used to dealing with a lot of chemicals.

BeardMaster

Im not sure what the experience is though? home defense. im guessing our homes have been broken into an equal number of times, zero. Thus equally experienced.

If anything is telling its that police carry pepper spray and stun guns as part of their standard issue equipment, they wouldnt if they were ineffective.

hell this guy was shot 6 times and was still juking and dodging throughout. So for every guy thats immune to pepper spray there is probably another that can absorb 6 bullets without being incapacitated.

police need some type of tool to use against a some one who is not complying, not to incapcitate. Many pds dont even carry tasers. Deadly force is met with deadly force. Incapcitation from a gunshot wound comes from either bleeding out, a shot to the central nervous system(brainstem), broken bones ,or simply giving up.   Its true many have survived gun shots(especially from a handgun) and kept on fighting. Infact many if not most survive(with proper medical attention. Your comment about the intelligence of military and law enforcement shows ignorance and hateful attitude. Leftists are the most hateful dimwits I have ever encountered.

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

I know you have been here long but you do realize that you are trying to argue with some people at are police officers and current and former military personnel right? I will let you figure out who is who.

WhiteKnight77

And? I have plenty of friends in the military, one that is a cop. I dont idolize them, great folk but frankly they werent exactly college material, and thats putting it lightly. So i dont exactly hold the opinion of police and military to a higher standard.

Don't need to idolize anyone, just understand that they have a level of expertise that you don't, just like Dave states.

not sure how they have a different level of expertise. most cops and soldiers have never shot anyone. Or had to defend themselves in a manner that a normal civilian would ever experience.

There is no expertise involved.

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

Don't need to idolize anyone, just understand that they have a level of expertise that you don't, just like Dave states.

BeardMaster

not sure how they have a different level of expertise. most cops and soldiers have never shot anyone. Or had to defend themselves in a manner that a normal civilian would ever experience.

There is no expertise involved.

You still are not grasping it. While there are those who have never shot anyone, they still shoot, often on a monthly basis, troops in warzones even moreso. That is experience that you do not have. Even when there is an instance where police have to shoot someone, it is a learning experience for the whole PD. Learning what rounds do what or more importantly don't do gives everyone experience. The military also learns the same way. That is the expertise being referred to.

I wouldn't presume to tell someone on this forum how intelligence works when they are who preformed it or worked in it. No one else should presume to know what the cops or military members of this forum what experience they do or do not have. This forum does have a fair population of current and former military personnel on it. Even then, once we have returned to civilian life, we don't forget any training and experience we have.

You cannot presume to tell a cop that using pepper spray is better than a hollow point round is better. People have given you reasons as to why. It is closer to the truth than your assumptions. 

police need some type of tool to use against a some one who is not complying, not to incapcitate. Many pds dont even carry tasers. Deadly force is met with deadly force. Incapcitation from a gunshot wound comes from either bleeding out, a shot to the central nervous system(brainstem), broken bones ,or simply giving up.   Its true many have survived gun shots(especially from a handgun) and kept on fighting. Infact many if not most survive(with proper medical attention. Your comment about the intelligence of military and law enforcement shows ignorance and hateful attitude. Leftists are the most hateful dimwits I have ever encountered.

consoletroll

I dont hate the militarty at all, lost my best friend since kindergarten to an IED my other ex military friend was my roommate for 2 years. Love and respect them to death... but they werent bright guys.

Then again to my knowledge neither of them owned any firearms, so you could chalk that up to experts deciding guns arent required for self defense. Of course they were both pretty jacked and i wouldnt mess with either of them. I think the gym membership still ultimately wins out for overall self defense, and increased life expetancy.

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

Don't need to idolize anyone, just understand that they have a level of expertise that you don't, just like Dave states.

WhiteKnight77

not sure how they have a different level of expertise. most cops and soldiers have never shot anyone. Or had to defend themselves in a manner that a normal civilian would ever experience.

There is no expertise involved.

You still are not grasping it. While there are those who have never shot anyone, they still shoot, often on a monthly basis, troops in warzones even moreso. That is experience that you do not have. Even when there is an instance where police have to shoot someone, it is a learning experience for the whole PD. Learning what rounds do what or more importantly don't do gives everyone experience. The military also learns the same way. That is the expertise being referred to.

I wouldn't presume to tell someone on this forum how intelligence works when they are who preformed it or worked in it. No one else should presume to know what the cops or military members of this forum what experience they do or do not have. This forum does have a fair population of current and former military personnel on it. Even then, once we have returned to civilian life, we don't forget any training and experience we have.

You cannot presume to tell a cop that using pepper spray is better than a hollow point round is better. People have given you reasons as to why. It is closer to the truth than your assumptions. 

I dont presume anything, including presuming somone has more knowledge than me on the effect of gun regulation in society because they were once in the military or were a cop.

No police or military training covers muggings and home invasions, they also arent educated on statistics involving the survival rates of just running the hell away or giving up your wallet vs pulling a gun and entering a shootout.

EDIT: and even i should say even though i work as a prgrammer for a living, i know very little about computers outside of my limited subset of training. Im far from a computer expert, there are guys on system wars that probably work at mcdonalds talking all sorts of stuff about hardware and architecture that is nothing but gibberish to me.

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

You still are not grasping it. While there are those who have never shot anyone, they still shoot, often on a monthly basis, troops in warzones even moreso. That is experience that you do not have. Even when there is an instance where police have to shoot someone, it is a learning experience for the whole PD. Learning what rounds do what or more importantly don't do gives everyone experience. The military also learns the same way. That is the expertise being referred to.

I wouldn't presume to tell someone on this forum how intelligence works when they are who preformed it or worked in it. No one else should presume to know what the cops or military members of this forum what experience they do or do not have. This forum does have a fair population of current and former military personnel on it. Even then, once we have returned to civilian life, we don't forget any training and experience we have.

You cannot presume to tell a cop that using pepper spray is better than a hollow point round is better. People have given you reasons as to why. It is closer to the truth than your assumptions. 

BeardMaster

I dont presume anything, including presuming somone has more knowledge than me on the effect of gun regulation in society because they were once in the military or were a cop.

No police or military training covers muggings and home invasions, they also arent educated on statistics involving the survival rates of just running the hell away or giving up your wallet vs pulling a gun and entering a shootout.

EDIT: and even i should say even though i work as a prgrammer for a living, i know very little about computers outside of my limited subset of training. Im far from a computer expert, there are guys on system wars that probably work at mcdonalds talking all sorts of stuff about hardware and architecture that is nothing but gibberish to me.

Sure you did when you said this:

so i can only assume you have been shot in the belly with a hollowpoint? I didn't think so. Please take your idiocy somewhere else.

BeardMaster

While airshocker may not have been shot by a hollowpoint round, He most certainly would know what such a round is capable of and more importantly, why they would use such a round. That is the expertise he has but you do not.

What part of "shall not be infringed upon" of a right do they not understand? I love how idiots like this pass laws that hurt decent law abiding citizens just because they have some utopian view of the world. They should be shipped off to Canada. All of the statists. DevilMightCry

Apparently in the eyes of those lawmakers  poor people don't need to defend themselves. Thankfully, it will never pass on a federal level and even proposing it is a massive waste of time. It's amazing how much democratic politicans hate the fact that an average citizen can own a firearm. I guarantee you they would exempt their own security from this tax. 

I think everyone should go hunting with Louisville Sluggers so we can run around and get rid of that obesity problem.

1) It won't pass.

2) lol, beardmaster is an idiot

police need some type of tool to use against a some one who is not complying, not to incapcitate. Many pds dont even carry tasers. Deadly force is met with deadly force. Incapcitation from a gunshot wound comes from either bleeding out, a shot to the central nervous system(brainstem), broken bones ,or simply giving up.   Its true many have survived gun shots(especially from a handgun) and kept on fighting. Infact many if not most survive(with proper medical attention. Your comment about the intelligence of military and law enforcement shows ignorance and hateful attitude. Leftists are the most hateful dimwits I have ever encountered.

consoletroll

It's not really ignorance, since statisitcally the IQs of police officers are on the lower end of the spectrum compared to most professions.

[QUOTE="consoletroll"]

police need some type of tool to use against a some one who is not complying, not to incapcitate. Many pds dont even carry tasers. Deadly force is met with deadly force. Incapcitation from a gunshot wound comes from either bleeding out, a shot to the central nervous system(brainstem), broken bones ,or simply giving up.   Its true many have survived gun shots(especially from a handgun) and kept on fighting. Infact many if not most survive(with proper medical attention. Your comment about the intelligence of military and law enforcement shows ignorance and hateful attitude. Leftists are the most hateful dimwits I have ever encountered.

TacticalDesire

It's not really ignorance, since statisitcally the IQs of police officers are on the lower end of the spectrum compared to most professions.

Do you have real data for this?

then pay attention to context before replying, we are talking about people with nervous systems immune to electrical overload, and eyes immune to capsaicin... these are superhumans. You cannot judge them by human standards.

BeardMaster

And you still have no idea what you're talking about.

well if someone is drunk or high on stimulants, a bullet in their belly probably isnt going to be a major factor either. BeardMaster

NOTE: People who are drunk or high only think that they are 10 ft tall and bullet-proof. They do not actually become so.

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

And? I have plenty of friends in the military, one that is a cop. I dont idolize them, great folk but frankly they werent exactly college material, and thats putting it lightly. So i dont exactly hold the opinion of police and military to a higher standard.

BeardMaster

Don't need to idolize anyone, just understand that they have a level of expertise that you don't, just like Dave states.

not sure how they have a different level of expertise. most cops and soldiers have never shot anyone. Or had to defend themselves in a manner that a normal civilian would ever experience.

There is no expertise involved.

Right. And a carpenter may never have built a bookshelf himself, but would you say he has no expertise in building one? Stop being a moron.