Freedom of Speech - Why don't people get it?

Markop speaks the truth.. even if its 03:38, I can totally follow him, man *hippie*

But the muslims burning the danish flag was something completely different to your friend kicking you out of his house. You were being a douche to him, without noticing. Sure, we where being douches aswell, but The Jutland Post ordered those drawings..on purpose.. We -wanted- (well, not all of us, the editors and CEO's and blablabla of the newspaper did) to provoke..

Deihjan

.... Burning the flag is stepping over the line? verus kicking someone out of your house? How does that make any sense. At least with flag burning, that's a way of expression. I'm all for flag burning, it's just cotton with drawings on it.

Anyways, are you saying its only OK if you plan to provoke someone? and that's better then doing it by accident?

So my friend's grandma died. I make fun of him for crying about it. He's telling me to stop, saying something about how he was close to her or something. Anyways, I'm only joking around. He's my friend, so he should understand this, right? I continue making fun of him and his grandma. They were the funniest jokes ever! Anyone else would've laughed. He gets offended, almost hits me, and tells me to leave his house. Can't he understand where I'm coming from?

The above story is all fiction. Am I allowed to say those things? Yes. Am I being disrespectful? Yes. Am I being a total asshat? Affirmative.

the_foreign_guy

That's personal. How is a Muhammad cartoon personal? How is baby Jesus personal?

lets say you do say something offensive, and offend some guy, so he beats you to a bloody pulp, who's at fault?

Mr_ToastMan

If you knew that it was a touchy subject and knew with certainty that the person would react in that way, you're ultimately at fault, really. The only person's actions and temperment that you can control are yours. Like I said, one of the fundamental tenets of good human relations is relating to people on their terms as opposed to your own. That doesn't mean that you don't have the right to still go ahead with whatever it is, but it equally means you don't have the right not to have consequences to your actions.

Bottom line: if you do something that you know will bring about problems for yourself, and then those problems come to pass, you have no real standing to complain about it.

That's personal. How is a Muhammad cartoon personal? How is baby Jesus personal?

shoeonhead82

If you were a Muslim or a Christian, you might take it personally.

That's personal. How is a Muhammad cartoon personal? How is baby Jesus personal?

shoeonhead82

To some people, it may be.

Anyways, today's moral of the day is: Don't be a douche.

[QUOTE="the_foreign_guy"]

So my friend's grandma died. I make fun of him for crying about it. He's telling me to stop, saying something about how he was close to her or something. Anyways, I'm only joking around. He's my friend, so he should understand this, right? I continue making fun of him and his grandma. They were the funniest jokes ever! Anyone else would've laughed. He gets offended, almost hits me, and tells me to leave his house. Can't he understand where I'm coming from?

The above story is all fiction. Am I allowed to say those things? Yes. Am I being disrespectful? Yes. Am I being a total asshat? Affirmative.

shoeonhead82

That's personal. How is a Muhammad cartoon personal? How is baby Jesus personal?

[QUOTE="Deihjan"] Markop speaks the truth.. even if its 03:38, I can totally follow him, man *hippie*

But the muslims burning the danish flag was something completely different to your friend kicking you out of his house. You were being a douche to him, without noticing. Sure, we where being douches aswell, but The Jutland Post ordered those drawings..on purpose.. We -wanted- (well, not all of us, the editors and CEO's and blablabla of the newspaper did) to provoke..

shoeonhead82

.... Burning the flag is stepping over the line? verus kicking someone out of your house? How does that make any sense. At least with flag burning, that's a way of expression. I'm all for flag burning, it's just cotton with drawings on it.

Anyways, are you saying its only OK if you plan to provoke someone? and that's better then doing it by accident?

[QUOTE="the_foreign_guy"]

So my friend's grandma died. I make fun of him for crying about it. He's telling me to stop, saying something about how he was close to her or something. Anyways, I'm only joking around. He's my friend, so he should understand this, right? I continue making fun of him and his grandma. They were the funniest jokes ever! Anyone else would've laughed. He gets offended, almost hits me, and tells me to leave his house. Can't he understand where I'm coming from?

The above story is all fiction. Am I allowed to say those things? Yes. Am I being disrespectful? Yes. Am I being a total asshat? Affirmative.

shoeonhead82

There are times when you can abuse freedom of speech easily.

Ex. You're at a movie theater with about 100 people in it, now you decide to be a rebel and yell "Fire!" at the top of your lungs, then there's panic, next thing you know Little Jimmy get's trampled and Ol' Grandma Jones never sees her Little Angel ever again.

Are you allowed to do it? Yes, but you will get consequences as with a lot of choices in life.

To some people, it may be.

Anyways, today's moral of the day is: Don't be a douche.

the_foreign_guy

You have every right to be a douche though. ;)

[QUOTE="Mr_ToastMan"]

lets say you do say something offensive, and offend some guy, so he beats you to a bloody pulp, who's at fault?

GabuEx

If you knew that it was a touchy subject and knew with certainty that the person would react in that way, you're ultimately at fault, really. The only person's actions and temperment that you can control are yours. Like I said, one of the fundamental tenets of good human relations is relating to people on their terms as opposed to your own. That doesn't mean that you don't have the right to still go ahead with whatever it is, but it equally means you don't have the right not to have consequences to your actions.

Bottom line: if you do something that you know will bring about problems for yourself, and then those problems come to pass, you have no real standing to complain about it.

what your saying makes sense to me, but i really think, this day in age we should be able to say whatever, and not offend anyone, i know it's not like that, but you could say anything to me, i might feel bad at some of it but im not going to attack somone, ever.

EDIT: not offend to the point of violence.

so I have this buddy who is Christian.

I'm hanging out with Todd

shoeonhead82

:lol:

IMO your freedom of speech wasn't being infrigned on since the government wasn't involved at all. It seems to me that he felt like you were mocking his belief system and continued to do so even after he asked you to stop. No matter how silly you find Christianity to be (and believe me, I also find it ridiculous), if your friend believes in it, you probably shouldn't make fun of it in front of him. Common courtesy really.

However, your friend (expectedly) was being very sensitive about it since it's a religious thing. IMO religion should be something we can talk about like politics or maybe even like ice cream flavor.

"Yeah, baby Jesus will help you"

"He actually will though!"

"Hehehe, whatever man, enjoy that delusion of yours."

"You too!"

(replace "baby Jesus will help you" with "vanilla is better than chocolate," etc.)

I mean, it's just a worldview. I have friends that disagree with me on political issues, the origin of the universe, the afterlife, etc. but they're still good people.

However, if their religion starts to manifest itself in negative ways (like being against gay rights), then there might be an issue, probably nothing worth ruining a friendship over through. (I would know, I used to be very Christian and against gay rights, but my friends were still my friends) Long story short, just stay away from sensitive issues around friends and you'll find that you can continue to be friends and that the dispute was probably something trivial.

this topic

No offense, but I find it a little ironic when you ask why people don't get freedom of speech and then make a post that seems to indicate that you don't get freedom of speech either. :P

Freedom of speech means that the government cannot imprison you, fine you, or otherwise punish you for expressing something. It does not mean that you can express whatever you want without any consequences. As the saying goes, your right to swing your fists ends at another man's nose.

GabuEx

what your saying makes sense to me, but i really think, this day in age we should be able to say whatever, and not offend anyone, i know it's not like that, but you could say anything to me, i might feel bad at some of it but im not going to attack somone, ever.

Mr_ToastMan

See, though, you have every right to be offended, and the freedom of speech enables you to voice the offense you've taken.

what your saying makes sense to me, but i really think, this day in age we should be able to say whatever, and not offend anyone, i know it's not like that, but you could say anything to me, i might feel bad at some of it but im not going to attack somone, ever.

Mr_ToastMan

I certainly agree that it'd be great if we could say anything and not offend anyone. It'd also be great if there were no such thing as greenhouse gases and if every person on Earth lived in perfect harmony. :P

The fact of the matter is that people can complain about the way things are all they want, but it doesn't make reality any different. Reality is what it is, and the only choice we have is whether or not we want to make do with what we have or just throw up our hands and give up, because there's really no other option.

[QUOTE="the_foreign_guy"]

To some people, it may be.

Anyways, today's moral of the day is: Don't be a douche.

Genetic_Code

You have every right to be a douche though. ;)

And some people choose to act on this right with full force.

Alrite, so I have this buddy who is Christian. I havn't seen him for ages, seeing as I moved to a different town. Well, the school I go to, most of my friends are athiest like me, and we recently got used to making baby Jesus jokes. For example, if someone hurts themselves, someone would say "Oh don't worry, baby Jesus was save you"... or like if you fail a test: "haha, baby Jesus hates you".

Anyways, I'm hanging out with Todd after a few weeks, and I use the joke a few times. Not on purpose of course, but just because I'm used to it. Well, for some reason he starts getting really offended after a while, and asks me to stop. I don't see what the big deal is, so I ask him, and he tells me it's offensive. I tell him I have no problem with him or his religion, but I think the joke is hilarious. Anyways, a little while later, I use the joke again... he obviously looks upset... another hours later, and AGAIN I make a joke. He gets so upset that he tells me to get out of his house, and call his mom.

Now he won't talk to me, since I "disrespected and offended" him. How are people so sensitive about things like that. I mean, I'm still his friend.. who cares if I say things like that... its not like I am being mean.

What do you guys thing? Why don't people let free thinkers express themselves, and instead make things all personal like him.

shoeonhead82

[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="shoeonhead82"][QUOTE="markop2003"]

free speach dosn't mean there arn't consequences to what you say, he has free speach too and the right to not be your friend

Deihjan

That doesn't make it right! Like I said, the analogy is similar. This is like watching the Muslims in the world start burning everything when they get offended, and saying "oh... but there are consequences to freedom of speech". WHAT? No, we should tell them its our right, and it's stupid you get offended over 'words' and 'pictures'.

He can not be your friend for whatever reason he choises, he dosn't even have to have a reason. Burning everything is a different issue as that is negativity instead of simpley loss of positivity... if u c wat i mean

But the muslims burning the danish flag was something completely different to your friend kicking you out of his house. You were being a douche to him, without noticing. Sure, we where being douches aswell, but The Jutland Post ordered those drawings..on purpose.. We -wanted- (well, not all of us, the editors and CEO's and blablabla of the newspaper did) to provoke..

well it's nearly 3:00 here :? maybe i should get some sleep...

suprised you understood that, i'm not even sure i do re-reading it....

Im all for freedom of speech but if your friend asked you nicely to stop because he was feeling offended as a friend dont you think it would be respectful to keep the jokes light because of it. I mean yes you have the freedom to say what you want but he has the freedom to tell you to shut-up and gtfo his house. Just apologize because in the end you were wrong. Make ammends and be careful next time.

ok but offended to the point of violence?Mr_ToastMan

If someone is a violent person, what exactly do you propose to do about it? Of course it'd be better both for them and others if they aren't, but they are. And it'd be great if you could do something to make them not be that way, but good luck there.

The only rational thing is either to avoid invoking the person's wrath, to accept that the person will react violently and take it when it happens, or to cut off contact with the person. Like I said, the only person whose actions you can control is yours. Complaining about the way other people act solves absolutely nothing.

[QUOTE="Mr_ToastMan"]ok but offended to the point of violence?GabuEx

If someone is a violent person, what exactly do you propose to do about it? Of course it'd be better both for them and others if they aren't, but they are. And it'd be great if you could do something to make them not be that way, but good luck there.

The only rational thing is either to avoid invoking the person's wrath, to accept that the person will react violently and take it when it happens, or to cut off contact with the person. Like I said, the only person whose actions you can control is yours. Complaining about the way other people act solves absolutely nothing.

I agree with your entire post, but still, tell that to the civil rights movement.

This thread went from "I'm a silly kid who don't respect my friend's beliefs and am oblivious to his feelings toward a joke I kept telling" to "Unpleasant air equals death" o.oDeihjan

Ahh OT, good stuff =D

It's because they're so used to getting a free ride. Criticizing or questioning these beliefs are considered rude but only when it's convenient. It's ok for them to think you're going to hell but it's not ok for you to mock that. Funny how that works. dracula_16

"Free ride.":lol:

Mocking peoples' beliefs in their own homes after being told to stop = crossing the line, regardless of the belief.

[QUOTE="Mr_ToastMan"]ok but offended to the point of violence?GabuEx

If someone is a violent person, what exactly do you propose to do about it? Of course it'd be better both for them and others if they aren't, but they are. And it'd be great if you could do something to make them not be that way, but good luck there.

The only rational thing is either to avoid invoking the person's wrath, to accept that the person will react violently and take it when it happens, or to cut off contact with the person. Like I said, the only person whose actions you can control is yours. Complaining about the way other people act solves absolutely nothing.

if words can enrage you that bad, there's something mentally wrong with you.

[QUOTE="Deihjan"]This thread went from "I'm a silly kid who don't respect my friend's beliefs and am oblivious to his feelings toward a joke I kept telling" to "Unpleasant air equals death" o.oAzureEm

Ahh OT, good stuff =D

[QUOTE="dracula_16"]It's because they're so used to getting a free ride. Criticizing or questioning these beliefs are considered rude but only when it's convenient. It's ok for them to think you're going to hell but it's not ok for you to mock that. Funny how that works. Theokhoth

"Free ride.":lol:

Mocking peoples' beliefs in their own homes after being told to stop = crossing the line, regardless of the belief.

just yes

[QUOTE="duxup"]

Are you saying freedom of speech means he shouldn't be offended? Freedom of speech has nothing to do with that.

If you respect the dude you'd lay off the jokes around him.

shoeonhead82

I guess he did overreact a bit too much. But I really think you should stop saying the joke in his presence if he asked you that many times; it's really just common courtesy.Bigg_Boi

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying, don't make Muhammad cartoons just if we want to respect Muslim people or show them courtasy. Freedom of expression comes in many forms. For me it's through my jokes. It's like I'm making a political statement against him, or any individual. I just think religion in itself is funny, and especially the whole baby Jesus thing. He shouldn't just react by completing cutting ties with me, that's just "extreme".

I know the example is like on a larger scale, but its like the same thing.

Uh...freedom of speech dictates that he can completely cut ties to you if he wants to.

You have the freedom to offend your friend, your friend has the freedom to ask you to stop, you have the freedom to completely disrtegard your "friend's" wishes even though you know you're upsetting him, and he has the freedom to tell you to get the **** out of his life because you have absolutely no concern for his feelings.

It sounds like YOU are the one who doesn't understand how freedom of speech works.

I agree with your entire post, but still, tell that to the civil rights movement.

quiglythegreat

I'm not telling people to never, ever go against a violent person. All I'm saying is that if you know someone will react violently, then you should expect that and take it when it comes. The equivalent would be if Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat but then complained to her friends afterwards about those mean, nasty men who got upset about it. The civil rights movement knew very well what they were getting into and weathered the storm as opposed to complaining about it.

if words can enrage you that bad, there's something mentally wrong with you.

Mr_ToastMan

And if that's the case, what do you expect to change by saying so?

Every human being will run into nasty, unsavory characters over the course of their lives. The rational response is stop complaining and deal with it, because that's life.

Your right, you do have a freedom of speech; however, that is all that it is, a freedom of SPEECH. You can say what you want, but that doesn't mean others have to accept it. This isn't a 'Freedom of TC being an ass to whoever he wants and not expecting said people to become angry."

Its common courtesy to just stop if he asks you. Imagine if he came to your house and kept making jokes about something like the big bang or creationism or something, and it started to piss you off, yet he continued to say these terribly unfunny jokes. Just have some manners man, its actions like these that make people think all Atheists are jerks :L

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"]

I agree with your entire post, but still, tell that to the civil rights movement.

GabuEx

I'm not telling people to never, ever go against a violent person. All I'm saying is that if you know someone will react violently, then you should expect that and take it when it comes. The equivalent would be if Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat but then complained to her friends afterwards about those mean, nasty men who got upset about it. The civil rights movement knew very well what they were getting into and weathered the storm as opposed to complaining about it.

I tend towards inaction and I have to remind myself that it's important to act a lot of the time, so I guss that's more me.

Alrite, so I have this buddy who is Christian. I havn't seen him for ages, seeing as I moved to a different town. Well, the school I go to, most of my friends are athiest like me, and we recently got used to making baby Jesus jokes. For example, if someone hurts themselves, someone would say "Oh don't worry, baby Jesus was save you"... or like if you fail a test: "haha, baby Jesus hates you".

Anyways, I'm hanging out with Todd after a few weeks, and I use the joke a few times. Not on purpose of course, but just because I'm used to it. Well, for some reason he starts getting really offended after a while, and asks me to stop. I don't see what the big deal is, so I ask him, and he tells me it's offensive. I tell him I have no problem with him or his religion, but I think the joke is hilarious. Anyways, a little while later, I use the joke again... he obviously looks upset... another hours later, and AGAIN I make a joke. He gets so upset that he tells me to get out of his house, and call his mom.

Now he won't talk to me, since I "disrespected and offended" him. How are people so sensitive about things like that. I mean, I'm still his friend.. who cares if I say things like that... its not like I am being mean.

What do you guys thing? Why don't people let free thinkers express themselves, and instead make things all personal like him.

shoeonhead82

If he says stop then stop no need to be a jerk to your friend.

[QUOTE="Mr_ToastMan"]

if words can enrage you that bad, there's something mentally wrong with you.

GabuEx

And if that's the case, what do you expect to change by saying so?

Every human being will run into nasty, unsavory characters over the course of their lives. The rational response is stop complaining and deal with it, because that's life.

I just keep to my self.

I just keep to my self.

Mr_ToastMan

Well, there you go then. :P

[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="Mr_ToastMan"]

if words can enrage you that bad, there's something mentally wrong with you.

Mr_ToastMan

And if that's the case, what do you expect to change by saying so?

Every human being will run into nasty, unsavory characters over the course of their lives. The rational response is stop complaining and deal with it, because that's life.

I just keep to my self.

in real life, sometimes i E-Thug it.

EDIT:virtual knifes dont hurt that bad