Garden of Eden
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That my friend is a wall of text and i do not have the patience to read it. soulfood4Nah it's paragraphed appropriately, hardly a wall. That being said I haven't read it either.
[QUOTE="soulfood4"]That my friend is a wall of text and i do not have the patience to read it. domatron23Nah it's paragraphed appropriately, hardly a wall. That being said I haven't read it either. Haha you guys are hilarious. Well don't be shy give it a try.
Learn to shorten your posts a little ... good read though :)69ANT69Thanks! i thought people would be interested. There's so many religious threads here on gamespot.
I can read 200 words in 10 seconds.LastResortCookiDayum, that's some fast reading.
Are you really a first time user? That was a great first post, and if I understood your point correctly, then I agree, there's nothing wrong with having disobeyed and eating the apple, because exiting the garden was the only way for us to be truly human.
On a side note, one thing I find interesting about genesis is, if one were to believe what the bible says, there were two trees in the garden, one which granted knowledge and another which granted eternal life, and once man ate from the tree of knowledge, god said "lets cast man out from the garden before he eats of the tree of life and becomes like us", which would mean the only thing separating man from god right now is eternal life, and that god was afraid that we would become like him. He's clearly not comfortable with the idea of having equals, he must be THE one, THE only, which imo just reinforces the notion that he's not as godly as some would like to think, but rather insecure, arrogant, and even childish.
[QUOTE="LastResortCooki"] I can read 200 words in 10 seconds.domatron23Dayum, that's some fast reading. sorry got that wrong its actually 30 seconds. got confused with pages, etc.
I really am thanks! Yeah you described God very well he is just like us!Are you really a first time user? That was a great first post, and if I understood your point correctly, then I agree, there's nothing wrong with having disobeyed and eating the apple, because exiting the garden was the only way for us to be truly human.
On a side note, one thing I find interesting about genesis is, if one were to believe what the bible says, there were two trees in the garden, one which granted knowledge and another which granted eternal life, and once man ate from the tree of knowledge, god said "lets cast man out from the garden before he eats of the tree of life and becomes like us", which would mean the only thing separating man from god right now is eternal life, and that god was afraid that we would become like him. He's clearly not comfortable with the idea of having equals, he must be THE one, THE only, which imo just reinforces the notion that he's not as godly as some would like to think, but rather insecure, arrogant, and even childish.
black_cat19
Thank you for reading. I'm sorry what do you mean by facepalmed.I read most of it. I find it funny humans failed to obey so fast. God must have facepalmed. Or maybe he knew........hmmmmmmm............
FFCYAN
theres about 350 words there. I can read 200 words in 30 seconds. Thats about 45 seconds to read the whole thing. im sorry i do not have that much time. although i did spend a minute evaluating that and writing this ;=)LastResortCookiThank you for your time it was very nice of you. Take your time feel free to drop by anytime. =D
[QUOTE="FFCYAN"]Thank you for reading. I'm sorry what do you mean by facepalmed.I read most of it. I find it funny humans failed to obey so fast. God must have facepalmed. Or maybe he knew........hmmmmmmm............
beatifuleyes
Its an internet meme.Thank you for reading. I'm sorry what do you mean by facepalmed. Its an internet meme. Is that Patrick Stewart how funny haha.[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"][QUOTE="FFCYAN"]
I read most of it. I find it funny humans failed to obey so fast. God must have facepalmed. Or maybe he knew........hmmmmmmm............
domatron23
[QUOTE="domatron23"]Its an internet meme. Is that Patrick Stewart how funny haha. There are a lot more.[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"] Thank you for reading. I'm sorry what do you mean by facepalmed.beatifuleyes
I'm off now but I'll check this thread out later. Thank you Theokhoth. Do you believe that the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient God is compatible with free will. With this comes the problem of punishing a creation that was not only destined to fail, but designed to fail. Destined to fail in the sense that there's a greater plan behind the scheme and by designed we don't know any better. But their punishment was unknown at the time. They had no idea their actions would be punished by being thrown out of the Garden of Eden.The fact that they chose to leave the Garden of Eden shows that they had free will in the Garden as well.
But very nice post.
Theokhoth
While it isn't a wall, it's too long, so I didn't read it. I will get to it though. th3warr1orThank you. Please tell me what you think.
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Thank you Theokhoth. Do you believe that the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient God is compatible with free will. With this comes the problem of punishing a creation that was not only destined to fail, but designed to fail. Destined to fail in the sense that there's a greater plan behind the scheme and by designed we don't know any better. But their punishment was unknown at the time. They had no idea their actions would be punished by being thrown out of the Garden of Eden.The fact that they chose to leave the Garden of Eden shows that they had free will in the Garden as well.
But very nice post.
beatifuleyes
Yes they did. It says right there in Genesis 2:15-17:
The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."
This is repeated in Eve's dialectic with the Serpent in Genesis 3:1-2: Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, 'You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.'
Thank you Theokhoth. Do you believe that the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient God is compatible with free will. With this comes the problem of punishing a creation that was not only destined to fail, but designed to fail. Destined to fail in the sense that there's a greater plan behind the scheme and by designed we don't know any better. But their punishment was unknown at the time. They had no idea their actions would be punished by being thrown out of the Garden of Eden.[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
The fact that they chose to leave the Garden of Eden shows that they had free will in the Garden as well.
But very nice post.
Theokhoth
Yes they did. It says right there in Genesis 2:15-17:
The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."
This is repeated in Eve's dialectic with the Serpent in Genesis 3:1-2: Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, 'You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.'
I'm sorry Theokoth, I should have worded myself better. I only mean to say that they had no idea they would leave Eden. (Leaving Eden was the punishment; Leaving Eden was the spiritual death). In this sense they had no idea of their punishment, at least not clearly. Adam's rebellion was the cause of both spiritual death and physical death. After 930 years did Adam truly die. Therefore, the day Adam and Eve sinned, the process of dying or the process of aging only began. I don't believe Adam and Eve truly had free will because their actions were always faced with a consequence and judged from a guiding force who's will always was that of a dictators.[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="beatifuleyes"] Thank you Theokhoth. Do you believe that the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient God is compatible with free will. With this comes the problem of punishing a creation that was not only destined to fail, but designed to fail. Destined to fail in the sense that there's a greater plan behind the scheme and by designed we don't know any better. But their punishment was unknown at the time. They had no idea their actions would be punished by being thrown out of the Garden of Eden.beatifuleyes
Yes they did. It says right there in Genesis 2:15-17:
The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."
This is repeated in Eve's dialectic with the Serpent in Genesis 3:1-2: Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, 'You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.'
I'm sorry Theokoth, I should have worded myself better. I only mean to say that they had no idea they would leave Eden. (Leaving Eden was the punishment; Leaving Eden was the spiritual death). In this sense they had no idea of their punishment, at least not clearly. Adam's rebellion was the cause of both spiritual death and physical death. After 930 years did Adam truly die. Therefore, the day Adam and Eve sinned, the process of dying or the process of aging only began. I don't believe Adam and Eve truly had free will because their actions were always faced with a consequence and judged from a guiding force who's will always was that of a dictators.If an action is faced with a consequence, there is no free will?
I'm sorry Theokoth, I should have worded myself better. I only mean to say that they had no idea they would leave Eden. (Leaving Eden was the punishment; Leaving Eden was the spiritual death). In this sense they had no idea of their punishment, at least not clearly. Adam's rebellion was the cause of both spiritual death and physical death. After 930 years did Adam truly die. Therefore, the day Adam and Eve sinned, the process of dying or the process of aging only began. I don't believe Adam and Eve truly had free will because their actions were always faced with a consequence and judged from a guiding force who's will always was that of a dictators.[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
Yes they did. It says right there in Genesis 2:15-17:
The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."
This is repeated in Eve's dialectic with the Serpent in Genesis 3:1-2: Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, 'You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.'
Theokhoth
If an action is faced with a consequence, there is no free will?
Yes. But remember, we're specifically talking about a God who is a dictator. Not just cause and effect but a intervention from a Deity. When we talk about a dictatorship there is little room for freedom. Control is often used by the government and its leaders. I don't believe in God's universe of free will, where hell can be established as a place you go to by making certain choices. All we need to do is create a scenario of Nazi Germany where Jewish citizens were condemned because of their backround. Their very own free will was under control by a higher power that believed in the extermination of their kind. Any intervention of any kind, be it a gun to your head forcing you to make a choice or a God directly telling you not to do X or you will be punished, is an example of a lack of free will.[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"]Theokhoth may i ask if you're a Christian. Maybe we disagree on the theology on my last post. Thank you.Theokhoth
Yes.
Awesome! Do you have a particular branch that you follow.[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="beatifuleyes"] I'm sorry Theokoth, I should have worded myself better. I only mean to say that they had no idea they would leave Eden. (Leaving Eden was the punishment; Leaving Eden was the spiritual death). In this sense they had no idea of their punishment, at least not clearly. Adam's rebellion was the cause of both spiritual death and physical death. After 930 years did Adam truly die. Therefore, the day Adam and Eve sinned, the process of dying or the process of aging only began. I don't believe Adam and Eve truly had free will because their actions were always faced with a consequence and judged from a guiding force who's will always was that of a dictators. beatifuleyes
If an action is faced with a consequence, there is no free will?
Yes. But remember, we're specifically talking about a God who is a dictator. Not just cause and effect but a intervention from a Deity. When we talk about a dictatorship there is little room for freedom. Control is often used by the government and its leaders. I don't believe in God's universe of free will, where hell can be established as a place you go to by making certain choices. All we need to do is create a scenario of Nazi Germany where Jewish citizens were condemned because of their backround. Their very own free will was under control by a higher power that believed in the extermination of their kind. Any intervention of any kind, be it a gun to your head forcing you to make a choice or a God directly telling you not to do X or you will be punished, is an example of a lack of free will.I don't identify God with Hitler so I don't seem to have that problem. :|
I would like to add just a little bit more to what I've said in my earlier post. I am a bit of a compatibilist , I do believe we have free will, to be a free agent, to be free in choice and action, is simply to be free from constraints of certain sorts. Freedom is a matter of not being physically or psychologically forced or compelled to do what one does. Your character, personality, preferences, and general motivational set may be entirely determined by events for which you are in no way responsible (by your genetic inheritance, upbringing, subsequent experience, and so on). But you do not have to be in control of any of these things in order to have compatibilist freedom. They do not constrain or compel you, because compatibilist freedom is just a matter of being able to choose and act in the way one prefers or thinks best given how one is. As its name declares, it is compatible with determinism. It is compatible with determinism even though it follows from determinism that every aspect of your character, and everything you will ever do, was already inevitable before you were born. beatifuleyes
Interestingly, I'm also a compatibilist.
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="beatifuleyes"]Theokhoth may i ask if you're a Christian. Maybe we disagree on the theology on my last post. Thank you.beatifuleyes
Yes.
Awesome! Do you have a particular branch that you follow.No. Though if I were forced to pick one I would either go with Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism.
[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="beatifuleyes"] Thank you for reading right on. He punished them for disobeying, but specifically for disobeying when they didn't know it was wrong to disobey. Remember, they had not yet eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (because eating from the tree was the transgression), therefore they couldn't discern the difference.beatifuleyesHmm okay. I suppose you're implying that free will is only exemplified when it is coupled with moral knowledge? Moral knowledge would indeed be a prerequisite for the malevolent or benevolent intention behind actions but I'm not so sure that the same is true of the freedom behind actions. I mean surely somebody can do something freely without knowing that it is right or wrong. I suppose first and foremost I'll need to know how you define free will. Free will is a fascinating question. Thank you Domatron. It gets very complicated in my eyes. Firstly, this is far more of an issue for religious people than it is to atheists. Christianity solves its problem of evil by saying that God has decided, despite his benevolence, to let humans suffer and hang themselves if they so choose- by giving them free will. Some (like 7th day adventists) even think that there is an ongoing wager with Satan (like in the book of Job) where God, for some inexplicable reason, is allowing evil to flourish in the world by way of the free will of humans, as an object lesson in our lack of morals and lack of ability to govern ourselves, only to come back at judgement day to resume running the show again in earnest. One can see that it is the paradox of a benevolent god overseeing a suffering world that, for religious people, necessitates a special theory of free will. For rational people, however, free will is also a problem, in a different way. That is, if we are truly mechanistic beings, down to our cognitive and neural processes, then aren't all our thoughts determined in advance? Are we actually making decisions, or do decisions happen to us in a pre-determined way? Is the conscious sensation of making choices a true representation of some de-novo event in the universe? The answer is no- all mechanistic phenomena have reasons and causes, and the brain is not immune from this logic. This is spelled out in a nice book by Daniel Wegner "The illusion of conscious will". The neurobiology is not crystal clear yet, but it is clear that our sensation of conscious choice follows by a substantial lag the actual mechanism of choice made elsewhere in our brains. Thus our brains make choices, based on experience, on reason, on happenstance... whatever, and then our consciousness is informed of the result, at which point an idea "pops" into our heads. What this means is that we have free will, insofar as we are not aware of the subconscious processes that lead to all our decisions, or conversely can cite and use reasons for some decisions (however inaccurately rationalized in retrospect). We also have free will in that we take moral responsibility for our actions, even when they are desperately at odds to our more considered desires (addictions like smoking, gambling, eating). But in the end, we do not have free will in the atomic sense that there is an inner homunculus that purely reasons its way to action and represents our instant consciousness of that decision-making. Curse your big words(sarcasm)
Yes. But remember, we're specifically talking about a God who is a dictator. Not just cause and effect but a intervention from a Deity. When we talk about a dictatorship there is little room for freedom. Control is often used by the government and its leaders. I don't believe in God's universe of free will, where hell can be established as a place you go to by making certain choices. All we need to do is create a scenario of Nazi Germany where Jewish citizens were condemned because of their backround. Their very own free will was under control by a higher power that believed in the extermination of their kind. Any intervention of any kind, be it a gun to your head forcing you to make a choice or a God directly telling you not to do X or you will be punished, is an example of a lack of free will.[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
If an action is faced with a consequence, there is no free will?
Theokhoth
I don't identify God with Hitler so I don't seem to have that problem. :|
Haha too funny, sorry about that but that wasn't the connection. I wish to say that Jewish citizens are the same as the sinners (Lets use unbelievers as a better example.) The Jews are condemned by their very own ethnicity, who they are. The unbelievers are also condemned by their very nature. Neither can change who they are. If you study Roman, Greek, or Norse Mythology their always seems to be a concern for middle earth. Humans were seen in between worlds of the animal kingdom and the divine. There was always the trouble of changing our very nature.Awesome! Do you have a particular branch that you follow.[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
Yes.
Theokhoth
No. Though if I were forced to pick one I would either go with Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism.
It's very exciting to be part of a church group, especially Roman Catholicism i find the music to be great haha.I really got my idea from the Matrix.Omg, that sounds like that simpsons episode. :shock:
Makemap
[QUOTE="soulfood4"]That my friend is a wall of text and i do not have the patience to read it. domatron23Nah it's paragraphed appropriately, hardly a wall. That being said I haven't read it either.
So are bricks but, they're still part of the wall. o_o
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