G-d exists. Evolution exists.

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#1 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts

Here we are in 2007 and we’re all slipping backwards in time. We’re going back to the hypothesis of Lamark scientifically, and to the paganism that existed before Christianity—calling it “progress” or “advancement.” The fact of the matter is, evolution and G-d can and do co-exist.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” --Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941. The fact of the matter is, the more Einstein studied the universe, the more he peered into the deepest corners of physics, the more he was convinced there was a G-d.

By denying G-d, you are only denying your own existence. If one’s intelligence is correspondent with one’s intellectual acumens (insight) and education then such a statement is a function of ordinary thinking, isn’t it? =P


Misinterpretation

The nexus of science and theology is actually biblical and can be found in the actual words of the original Hebrew in the bible. The very first word of the Bible, “בְּרֵאשִׁית” was mistranslated into English as "In the beginning" is a testament to one's position of G-d having created other existence prior to the existence related in Genesis. G-d said "בְּרֵאשִׁית" or "In a beginning" which is an indefinite article (construct form grammatically) and not the definite article "In the beginning."

The most correct way to translate the beginning of Genesis 1:1 would be, “In a beginning of G-d creating Heaven and Earth”. Note: The word ‘created’ has an appropriate exegesus (biblical interpretation) of the language. The first elements of creation is “In a beginning” or ‘time’. G-d first creates time. Then G-d “create ex nigilos” (Latin) or “creates something out of nothing.”

Evolution

G-d created humankind with evolution, the ability to adapt to circumstances and situations and to live with a sense of dynamics. G-d ordained us, mandated us to subdue the universe. That is a declaration of learning science, or becoming knowledgeable. G-d then creates transcendental space (Heaven), and physical space (Earth) connected through a time-space continuum.

Perhaps I will be able to explain a time-space continuum best using science fiction. If we were able to create a satellite that could travel faster than the speed of light, the camera or telescope of the satellite would see Earth’s history, or light reflected off the earth perhaps even millions of years ago, still traveling somewhere in space.

Denying evolution because of one’s religious beliefs threatens the intellectual ability to interpret and understand that there’s a certain level of culpability humankind has for its own actions. There is a definite sense among evolution deniers of a pre-determined, pre-disposed life circumstance under which we relieve ourselves of liability and culpability of our own actions. In other words, the very same retrograde tendencies (against free will) that we saw during the Middle Ages is now occurring in circles among evolution deniers.

The Transcendent Bible / Torah

In the original Hebrew Bible, the five books of Moses, is a volume that transcends time, transcends space, transcends culture. It is a book that establishes the moral and ethical imperatives that guide our lives so that we can live sound, decent, ethical, correct lives. That is what the Bible is, and it can be taken at many different levels: literally, figuratively, as a historical document, as a legal document, as a moral limit in which we strive to ascertain, ect.

I believe sincerely that every word of the Bible / Torah is the word of G-d. Now, what those words mean (exegesus; the interpretations, understanding) is up for interpretation. The understanding of the concepts, for example, “An eye for an eye” was actually mistranslated from “An eye instead of an eye,” meaning that revenge does not mean compensation. [1]

According to the Bible, if someone knocks out your tooth, are you required to knock their tooth out? Of course not! In other words, the written law is supplemented by the oral tradition, or 63 tractates of the Talmud. That oral tradition defines the language and the sensibilities of the written Bible. In other words, it interprets it for the average reader. It is an interpretive volume that teaches us not to take revenge instead of compensation.

There are understandings of equity and jurisprudence and there are provisions for compensation. There are issues that are extraordinarily important to realize. There are a number of punishments that are meted out for murder, for example, at various levels. The only question is how do you define which punishment is correct for each circumstance.

G-d’s Ability to Adapt

If you still believe evolution is false, I would direct you to understand several phenomenons. The creationism of the biblical account is absolutely in its entirety correct. The fact of the matter is that the principle of adaptation is interpreted differently.

The Bible indicates that G-d is proactive and responsive. I’m going to identify a narrative that takes place in the time of Moses. The children of Israel are with Moses in the desert and G-d has given them the laws of inheritance. The laws of inheritance are directed towards the sons of the fathers. One of the families has only daughters. The daughters come to Moses, and complain that they have been excluded by virtue of their gender.

Moses said, and I’m paraphrasing, ‘That’s a really great point. Let me check it out.’ He contacts G-d, and he tells G-d of the problem. G-d says that they have a valid position and gives them the right to inherit within certain parameters. This is a G-d that is proactive, a G-d that is involved, concerned, and a G-d that adjusts.

It is our belief paradigm that G-d is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (knows everything), and that G-d is perfect. Now, if G-d is perfect, how can G-d make a mistake? The answer is that G-d does not make mistakes. The mistake is in our misunderstanding and misinterpretation of that which G-d does.

A cumulative knowledge of the ancients, of the language, of the culture, the philosophy, the theosophy, and the theology, far be it from any of us to assume that we have even the slightest inkling of what it is that G-d is doing.

Carbon Dating

Carbon dating is carbon dating. The essence of examining the physical attributes of organic compound is not against G-d. Every organic compound by definition has carbon. If it has carbon, it is an organic compound. We can with a reasonable degree of accuracy determine the dating and origin by virtue of the analysis of degrading carbon atoms in comparison to non-degrading carbon atoms.

The fact of the matter is that G-d speaks in language that can be understood by humankind. When G-d says “evening” or “morning” or “# day” of, he is speaking in cardinal numbers, indicating order. The unit of time, or a “day” could be a billion years. They are not fixed days, but rather fixed epochs of history.

Man’s Inhumanity to Man

The core principle of Judeo-Christian teachings is the sacredness of human life. He who saves a single life, it is as though he has saved the entire world. This teaching is unfortunately being lost by all the hate being slung as rhetoric coming out against Christians and Jews today. These beautiful transcendental humanistic teachings are essential to our survival of human beings.

This current theme of man’s inhumanity to man is what’s playing out on television, on the internet, in the games, and in the movies day and night. This social barbarism is descending mankind into madness allover again. What we thought we left behind in the last millennium is coming back to haunt us, perhaps even worse than the last century.

In the last century, over 100,000,000 people were slaughtered by atheists, pagans, and Marxists such as Hitler (Pagan), Stalin (Marxist, Atheist), Pol Pot (Marxist, Atheist), and Mao Zedong (Marxist, Atheist). Over 100 million killed because of the false prophets of communism and paganism, and I am afraid that we are going backwards towards these teachings.

One has to be optimistic to survive-- optimism tempered with the realism of our very uncivilized civilization. We have lost our sense of stability, but we have not yet fallen into the abyss of which I spoke. However, we are losing ground very quickly.

It is a ‘shout-out,’ to use the vernacular of the day, and as course and abrupt reminder that we have got to reassess and revaluate our moral compass and get back online here. We’ve got to learn that our future as a human race, our future as a civilization is very much a function of our ability to reintegrate a sense of decency, kindness and culture that is rooted in understanding the divinity that is manifested in every human being.



Q: If you believe in G-d, who created him. Who created G-ds creator?

A: That answer is simple. G-d has always existed as energy, and as energy was able to take form, G-d took form. Scientifically, energy cannot be created or destroyed. If energy cannot be created, then how did life become the way it is? There is only one answer, G-d.

Q: (relating to G-d’s adaptation) It is our belief paradigm that G-d is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (knows everything), and that G-d is perfect. Now, if G-d is perfect, how can G-d make a mistake?

A: The answer is that G-d does not make mistakes. The mistake is in our misunderstanding and misinterpretation of that which G-d does.

Q: If G-d is omnipotent, why didn’t G-d simply push a button and create everything in it’s final state all at once? Why is there an absolute order to the creation process?

A: Because G-d wanted to teach us, and make sure we understood that the creation of one single human being took an enormity of preparation. Everything that exists in this world is a function of the divine preparation. Nothing happens in an instant. In other words, this laborious process of creating life is to teach us the divinity of every human life, the sacred nature of every human life.

Q: What does G-d want of us?

A: G-d wants us to care about eachother.

[1] http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/goldberg

P.S: I don’t expect many people to care or understand what this topic is about. I made this post after seeing the posts arguing whether G-d and Science both exist, and instead of debate, they simply want to regurgitate half-truths to express their own feelings and religious or non-religious beliefs.

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#2 TheHimura
Member since 2005 • 9297 Posts
You're welcomed.
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#3 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
You're welcomed.TheHimura
I have a feeling my time typing this will have been wasted, but I atleast tried to clarify the stupidity of arguments on Gamespot.
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yoshi-lnex

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#4 yoshi-lnex
Member since 2007 • 5442 Posts

copy/paste/wall of text

god doesn't exist

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#5 firedonut
Member since 2007 • 390 Posts
G-d? Why not "God"?
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#7 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
G-d? Why not "God"?firedonut
Orthodox and most people of Sephardi Jewish descent do not ever write that word. Here is a more complicated explination why. http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_g-d.htm
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#8 TheHimura
Member since 2005 • 9297 Posts
[QUOTE="TheHimura"]You're welcomed.Thanks-
I have a feeling my time typing this will have been wasted, but I atleast tried to clarify the stupidity of arguments on Gamespot.

Pretty much. People have been trying to discuss whether God exists or not forever, and typing a really long story doesn't make your theory any better.
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#9 yoshi-lnex
Member since 2007 • 5442 Posts
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]

copy/paste/wall of text

god doesn't exist

Thanks-
I didn't copy and paste a single word. It was all written, by me, in the past two hours using a word processor. How come a communist like yourself is not able to realize that not every religious person is an ignoramus or a fool?

I'm not a communist and I never said the bolded portion.
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#10 Bidiot
Member since 2003 • 609 Posts
Yes that was a waste, If you wrote that and I will assume you did to suite my argument, you must be of enough intelligence to realise that no matter how much effort and fact you put into somthing you will barely every change the views of some one on the internet. Some people who apose you may even have the same beliefs as you but will argue agianst your point as a means to seem cool among their internet peers.(I sound very protencious don't I?)
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#11 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts
While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
 
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#12 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanks-"][QUOTE="TheHimura"]You're welcomed.TheHimura
I have a feeling my time typing this will have been wasted, but I atleast tried to clarify the stupidity of arguments on Gamespot.

Pretty much. People have been trying to discuss whether God exists or not forever, and typing a really long story doesn't make your theory any better.

If you would have read, it's not a story. It's mostly factual information.
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#13 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
Yes that was a waste, If you wrote that and I will assume you did to suite my argument, you must be of enough intelligence to realise that no matter how much effort and fact you put into somthing you will barely every change the views of some one on the internet. Some people who apose you may even have the same beliefs as you but will argue agianst your point as a means to seem cool among their internet peers.(I sound very protencious don't I?) biocunsumer
Yes, I realize that. The purpose was to shift the course of the debate to reason, instead of the hatemongering in the other posts.
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#15 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
 Atrus
G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.
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#16 yoshi-lnex
Member since 2007 • 5442 Posts

[QUOTE="Atrus"]While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
 Thanks-
G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.

 Not exactly a convincing argument, and fairly neutral at that, who's to say that this lack of conincodences, isn't a result of the doing of other gods? 

althought what "lack of coincidence" prooves the existance of god?

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#17 Lord_Daemon
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If you did indeed just write all this up in the last hour then I commend you on being able to write in a coherent, if not concise, manner. I can't argue with your precise biblical elucidations as I am rather ignorant on the detail of the various passages and the rather large amount of interpretations that have been ascribed to them.

I can say, however, that I completely disagree with your findings as to their meaning and the existance of God and the overall value of Christianity in the world. I will not attempt to sway your belief however as I find that a rather fruitless and somewhat rude proposition. I prefer humanity in all their glorious colors and beliefs.
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#18 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanks-"][QUOTE="Atrus"]While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
 yoshi-lnex
G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.

 Not exactly a convincing argument, and fairly neutral at that, who's to say that this lack of conincodences, isn't a result of the doing of other gods? 

Life itself is a coincidence in the minds of the atheist. I don't believe in coincidences. Any intelligent person wouldn't, until the coincidence is proven. Now where in your atheistic teachings does it teach this? Q: If G-d is omnipotent, why didn’t G-d simply push a button and create everything in it’s final state all at once? Why is there an absolute order to the creation process? A: Because G-d wanted to teach us, and make sure we understood that the creation of one single human being took an enormity of preparation. Everything that exists in this world is a function of the divine preparation. Nothing happens in an instant. In other words, this laborious process of creating life is to teach us the divinity of every human life, the sacred nature of every human life. Answer: Nowhere. That's why atheism was last century's biggest killer. A bigger killer than cigarettes, AIDS, car accidents, ect.
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#19 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanks-"]G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.



I've seen this argument before but there are two positions that I've been presented with:

1. That the Universe is so hostile, the very notion of life exists speaks to the existence of a God.
2. That the Universe is so appropriately designed for life that is speaks to the existence of a God.

Which school of thought am I dealing with?
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#20 azargushasb
Member since 2005 • 1885 Posts
[QUOTE="Atrus"]While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
Thanks-
G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.

So you are a diest ?
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#21 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
[QUOTE="Atrus"][QUOTE="Thanks-"]G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.



I've seen this argument before but there are two positions that I've been presented with:

1. That the Universe is so hostile, the very notion of life exists speaks to the existence of a God.
2. That the Universe is so appropriately designed for life that is speaks to the existence of a God.

Which school of thought am I dealing with?

You are dealing with the argument that G-d is the only force that can bypass and circumvent scientific laws, creating matter and energy where there was once none. Creating a physical space and transcendental space where there was once none. This is the only reasonable explination that I can determine. It certainly sounds better than life being mere coincidence.
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#22 Atrus
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[QUOTE="Thanks-"]Life itself is a coincidence in the minds of the atheist. I don't believe in coincidences. Any intelligent person wouldn't, until the coincidence is proven. Now where in your atheistic teachings does it teach this? Q: If G-d is omnipotent, why didn’t G-d simply push a button and create everything in it’s final state all at once? Why is there an absolute order to the creation process? A: Because G-d wanted to teach us, and make sure we understood that the creation of one single human being took an enormity of preparation. Everything that exists in this world is a function of the divine preparation. Nothing happens in an instant. In other words, this laborious process of creating life is to teach us the divinity of every human life, the sacred nature of every human life. Answer: Nowhere. That's why atheism was last century's biggest killer. A bigger killer than cigarettes, AIDS, car accidents, ect.



Actually, intelligence dictates against the supposition of a deity without any evidence.

Secondly,  you are attributing a statement regarding the existence of God to an overarching unanimous organization. There is no such thing as a unanimous Atheistic moral principle and to suggest that it was the largest killer of last century is blatently false.

In fact, seeing as how you could only arrive at such numbers regarding deaths (one would think heart disease kills more people in a century anyway), you are likely attributing mass genocidal regimes into this figure exempting the fact that the targeting of the populace in most of these, particularly the establishment of so called lesser races stems from religious sources. Adolf Hitler even states in Mein Kampf that prior to the Christian parties influence on the already presiding religious intolerance to Jews, Hitler couldn't have cared less about them much less call for their annihilation.
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#23 LA_lakers_4life
Member since 2006 • 7051 Posts
show me gods myspace and then ill believe you
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#24 Thanks-
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[QUOTE="Thanks-"][QUOTE="Atrus"]While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
azargushasb
G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.

So you are a diest ?

I'm a mixed breed: Italian, Sephardi Jewish, and Swedish. I was raised to be Roman Catholic, but in recent years have fallen back to Judaism.
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yoshi-lnex

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#25 yoshi-lnex
Member since 2007 • 5442 Posts

[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Thanks-"][QUOTE="Atrus"]While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
 Thanks-
G-d's existence can be found all around us, but we are too naieve to see it. I personally don't believe in coincidences, and there have been far too many in my life for there to not be a G-d. Secondly, I do not attend any congregation, yet I believe in G-d. Churches and other likeminded organizations are businesses.

 Not exactly a convincing argument, and fairly neutral at that, who's to say that this lack of conincodences, isn't a result of the doing of other gods? 

Life itself is a coincidence in the minds of the atheist. I don't believe in coincidences. Any intelligent person wouldn't, until the coincidence is proven. Now where in your atheistic teachings does it teach this? Q: If G-d is omnipotent, why didn’t G-d simply push a button and create everything in it’s final state all at once? Why is there an absolute order to the creation process? A: Because G-d wanted to teach us, and make sure we understood that the creation of one single human being took an enormity of preparation. Everything that exists in this world is a function of the divine preparation. Nothing happens in an instant. In other words, this laborious process of creating life is to teach us the divinity of every human life, the sacred nature of every human life. Answer: Nowhere. That's why atheism was last century's biggest killer. A bigger killer than cigarettes, AIDS, car accidents, ect.

Ok, the bolded section had nothing to do with what I've said.

and for somebody who claims to be a scientist, you don't have a very scientific mind, your beliefs are full of assumptions and a certain lack of evidence, nobody ever taught us about coincodence it's just common sence, events occur and interact, therefor 2 unrelated events will interact, it's not complex, and you're saying that everything is a coincodence is a direct contradiction of the delusion of free will.

and atheism has never harmed anybody, but let's not forget about the crusades so quickly.....

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#26 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts



Actually, intelligence dictates against the supposition of a deity without any evidence.

Secondly,  you are attributing a statement regarding the existence of God to an overarching unanimous organization. There is no such thing as a unanimous Atheistic moral principle and to suggest that it was the largest killer of last century is blatently false.

In fact, seeing as how you could only arrive at such numbers regarding deaths (one would think heart disease kills more people in a century anyway), you are likely attributing mass genocidal regimes into this figure exempting the fact that the targeting of the populace in most of these, particularly the establishment of so called lesser races stems from religious sources. Adolf Hitler even states in Mein Kampf that prior to the Christian parties influence on the already presiding religious intolerance to Jews, Hitler couldn't have cared less about them much less call for their annihilation.
Atrus
This is actually a good argument up until the end, where you said essentially that Hitler was infulenced by Christians. That is untrue. Hitler was obviously a Pagan, and there is plenty of evidence to support this. Moreover, Hitler had plans to enslave the Christians once his 'Aryan' dream was born. Moreover, Mein Kampf is just another facet of Hitler's propoganda machine.

Edit: Also, I do account the murderings of genocidal regimes into my 'killed by atheism' statistic.

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Atrus

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#27 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts
You are dealing with the argument that G-d is the only force that can bypass and circumvent scientific laws, creating matter and energy where there was once none. Creating a physical space and transcendental space where there was once none. This is the only reasonable explination that I can determine. It certainly sounds better than life being mere coincidence.Thanks-


God is the only force? Can you prove this? How do you know there is not another force? A Goddess, a Hobbit, the Energizer bunny? Where do you stop making assumptions?

Secondly, how do you suppose a creator in a Universe whose origins have not been ruled out as being uncaused?

This is not the case of what sounds better. Does what sounds better dictate what is correct? It used to be that the Earth was the center of the Universe and the Sun revolved around the Earth. That sounded like a great explaination but not only was it wrong it showed us an entire vast and complex system beyond it.

You are mistakenly taking chance to mean that life is less special when that is not the case.
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#28 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanks-"]You are dealing with the argument that G-d is the only force that can bypass and circumvent scientific laws, creating matter and energy where there was once none. Creating a physical space and transcendental space where there was once none. This is the only reasonable explination that I can determine. It certainly sounds better than life being mere coincidence.Atrus


God is the only force? Can you prove this? How do you know there is not another force? A Goddess, a Hobbit, the Energizer bunny? Where do you stop making assumptions?

Secondly, how do you suppose a creator in a Universe whose origins have not been ruled out as being uncaused?

This is not the case of what sounds better. Does what sounds better dictate what is correct? It used to be that the Earth was the center of the Universe and the Sun revolved around the Earth. That sounded like a great explaination but not only was it wrong it showed us an entire vast and complex system beyond it.

You are mistakenly taking chance to mean that life is less special when that is not the case.

I'm not sure whether G-d is male or female, but I assume it is a male. Secondly, the hobbit, energizer bunny, ect are ojects that are part of the creation process (what is being created) and therefore cannot be the creators. G-d is the most logical choice that I have encountered, certainly more logical than coincidence.
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tequilasunriser

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#29 tequilasunriser
Member since 2004 • 6379 Posts
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]

copy/paste/wall of text

god doesn't exist

Thanks-
I didn't copy and paste a single word. It was all written, by me, in the past two hours using a word processor. How come a communist like yourself is not able to realize that not every religious person is an ignoramus or a fool?

You wasted your time. Everyone is tired of reading this crap.
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#30 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanks-"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]

copy/paste/wall of text

god doesn't exist

tequilasunriser
I didn't copy and paste a single word. It was all written, by me, in the past two hours using a word processor. How come a communist like yourself is not able to realize that not every religious person is an ignoramus or a fool?

You wasted your time. Everyone is tired of reading this crap.

How do you know "Everyone," and when were you appointed "Everyone"'s spokesperson.
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#31 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts

This is actually a good argument up until the end, where you said essentially that Hitler was infulenced by Christians. That is untrue. Hitler was obviously a Pagan, and there is plenty of evidence to support this. Moreover, Hitler had plans to enslave the Christians once his 'Aryan' dream was born. Moreover, Mein Kampf is just another facet of Hitler's propoganda machine.

Edit: Also, I do account the murderings of genocidal regimes into my 'killed by atheism' statistic.

Thanks-


Again you are misguided. Hitlers hatred of the Jews stems from the prevading Christian teachings that were popular amongst the German populace at that time. Hitler himself was a non-practising Christian though he considered himself Christian.

Additionally, while Hitler himself was non-practising, just about the entire body of his upper government was Christian, predominantly of the Protestant and Catholic kind. In addition, Hitler was able to enlist support of the clergy who in various areas were all to happy to support him, obviously because they were a source of his hate.

Hitlers plan called for a reunification between Protestants and Catholics, not for a phasing out Christianity. I suggest reading Mein Kampf at the very least if you're going to make baseless and exorbitant claims. Additionally, you are incorrect in amalgamating Atheists under one analogous belief system.


The anti-Semitism of the new movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed." [Adolf Hitler speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"Not until my fourteenth or
fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word 'Jew,' with any
frequency, partly in connection with political discussions.... For the
Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion, and
therefore, on grounds of human tolerance
, I maintained my rejection of
religious attacks in this case as in others
. Consequently, the tone,
particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me
unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation."
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"I was not in agreement with the
sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which
gave me some food for thought.
At all events, these occasions slowly
made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days
guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social
Party."
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Even today I am not ashamed to
say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and
thanked Heaven
from an overflowing heart for granting me the good
fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


Certainly we don't have to
discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this
cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against
the aesthetics of the Lord's image.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The best characterization is
provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself.
His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to
true Christianity
as his nature two thousand years previous was to the
great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret
of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even
took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of
all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an
instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to
the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to
begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange
political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against
their own nation.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



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#32 Thanks-
Member since 2007 • 320 Posts
[QUOTE="Thanks-"]

This is actually a good argument up until the end, where you said essentially that Hitler was infulenced by Christians. That is untrue. Hitler was obviously a Pagan, and there is plenty of evidence to support this. Moreover, Hitler had plans to enslave the Christians once his 'Aryan' dream was born. Moreover, Mein Kampf is just another facet of Hitler's propoganda machine.

Edit: Also, I do account the murderings of genocidal regimes into my 'killed by atheism' statistic.

Atrus



Again you are misguided. Hitlers hatred of the Jews stems from the prevading Christian teachings that were popular amongst the German populace at that time. Hitler himself was a non-practising Christian though he considered himself Christian.

Additionally, while Hitler himself was non-practising, just about the entire body of his upper government was Christian, predominantly of the Protestant and Catholic kind. In addition, Hitler was able to enlist support of the clergy who in various areas were all to happy to support him, obviously because they were a source of his hate.

Hitlers plan called for a reunification between Protestants and Catholics, not for a phasing out Christianity. I suggest reading Mein Kampf at the very least if you're going to make baseless and exorbitant claims. Additionally, you are incorrect in amalgamating Atheists under one analogous belief system.


The anti-Semitism of the new movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed." [Adolf Hitler speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"Not until my fourteenth or
fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word 'Jew,' with any
frequency, partly in connection with political discussions.... For the
Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion, and
therefore, on grounds of human tolerance
, I maintained my rejection of
religious attacks in this case as in others
. Consequently, the tone,
particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me
unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation."
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"I was not in agreement with the
sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which
gave me some food for thought.
At all events, these occasions slowly
made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days
guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social
Party."
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Even today I am not ashamed to
say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and
thanked Heaven
from an overflowing heart for granting me the good
fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


Certainly we don't have to
discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this
cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against
the aesthetics of the Lord's image.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The best characterization is
provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself.
His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to
true Christianity
as his nature two thousand years previous was to the
great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret
of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even
took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of
all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an
instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to
the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to
begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange
political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against
their own nation.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



The fact of the matter is, that politicians as devious as Hitler will say anything in order to get elected. I suggest instead of browsing Christian hating websites for your facts, you ask a history professor if Hitler was a pagan or a Christian. Until then, keep your false salvations to yourself.

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#33 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts

The fact of the matter is, that politicians as devious as Hitler will say anything in order to get elected. I suggest instead of browsing Christian hating websites for your facts, you ask a history professor if Hitler was a pagan or a Christian. Until then, keep your false salvations to yourself.

P.S: I have forbidden>

Thanks-


Right, Hitler was so devious that in a decade prior to thinking of running himself he published a book about the source of his hatred. Not only that, he was so devious in all this orchestrating that he managed to lose the election twice, and when he did win, managed to not get enough seats to form a majority in the Reichstag.

How devious.

Why don't you save face and admit you were incorrect instead of making a fallacious appeal to authority trying to make a Christian apologetic stance for Adolf Hitler That you try to absolve the reason millions of people died under as stated by the murderer himself is atrocious.
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Nova_Mongoose

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#34 Nova_Mongoose
Member since 2004 • 2261 Posts
G-d? Why not "God"?firedonut
He didn't want to offend the ignorant sissies out there.
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#35 thotoz
Member since 2006 • 941 Posts
I believe in Evolution. I believe there is a God, and He is great, but I don't believe Jesus Christ was His son, that is a big statement. I believe Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Moses, and the other Prophets that I may have not mentioned (I am Sikh and Guru Nanak was our religion's founder, we believe there is One God, btw it's a new religion somewhat but 5th greatest population wise in world). I believe that God may have spoken with a Prophet, and therefore the Prophet had his perspective on Him, and that is how different religions have different teachings. The teachings are merely "point of views" of Him, not facts. Waheguru, Allah, Jehovah, He is great, but I do not believe Jesus Christ to be his son. I believe Christianity has more Limits than other Religions, many stuff is just absolutely odd. Choosing a religion is like choosing what teachings you agree on that Mohammed, Jesus,etc had taught us. It does not mean that Science is false. We will never know of the "holes in Science" are filled by Him, or perhaps..science that we do not know about yet. Can you honestly believe Adam and Eve were the first man and woman on Earth? I believe there are even some people today on Earth that have come across the Holy Spirit, it does not mean that He placed Men on Earth and that we did not come from Primates, but I do believe He exists. I respect the prophets, but I believe the "people" have caused many tensions. (Crusades,etc). He exists, His grace is upon us, and instead of one religion being the true one worshipping the Real God, I believe the Prophets simply showed different teachings and all worshipped Him. The reason, however, why many people refer to Christians as being blind is because some believe everything in the Bible, word for word. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they believed that "their God is the True God". hmm? Most likely because Islam is newer than Christianity, and of course, updated.
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Nova_Mongoose

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#36 Nova_Mongoose
Member since 2004 • 2261 Posts


Actually, intelligence dictates against the supposition of a deity without any evidence.

Secondly,  you are attributing a statement regarding the existence of God to an overarching unanimous organization. There is no such thing as a unanimous Atheistic moral principle and to suggest that it was the largest killer of last century is blatently false.

In fact, seeing as how you could only arrive at such numbers regarding deaths (one would think heart disease kills more people in a century anyway), you are likely attributing mass genocidal regimes into this figure exempting the fact that the targeting of the populace in most of these, particularly the establishment of so called lesser races stems from religious sources. Adolf Hitler even states in Mein Kampf that prior to the Christian parties influence on the already presiding religious intolerance to Jews, Hitler couldn't have cared less about them much less call for their annihilation.

Actually, a real intelligent man would ponder the reality of his own exsistence, his impending demise, and the reason for both. If you cut out the debate and just look at what Jesus said, it all makes incredible sense! I'll sum it up so you can understand it in a nutshell, "Love other people" "Love your God" "Treat others the way you would want them to treat you" why is that so hard for some people to grasp??? Pure and simple: without God there is no reason for morality. without morality there is no reason for law. without law everythig would be utter chaos.
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#37 v3n0m111
Member since 2006 • 546 Posts
Man i would have loved to have read that, but i didnt and wont.
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quadraleap

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#38 quadraleap
Member since 2004 • 36581 Posts

I think my life will continue successfully without reading all of that, but thanks for the heads-up.

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#39 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts

Actually, a real intelligent man would ponder the reality of his own exsistence, his impending demise, and the reason for both. If you cut out the debate and just look at what Jesus said, it all makes incredible sense! I'll sum it up so you can understand it in a nutshell, "Love other people" "Love your God" "Treat others the way you would want them to treat you" why is that so hard for some people to grasp??? Pure and simple: without God there is no reason for morality. without morality there is no reason for law. without law everythig would be utter chaos.Nova_Mongoose


I never said anything about pondering existence, however this is entirely unrelated to the supposition that a deity exists. Additionally, your argument that the lack of religion gives no basis for morality or law is flawed.

Every species is evolved with a set of natural laws that define its behavioural parameters for survival. Humans are not only animals but it is a self-aware and sociable one. From this, the set of laws are such that maintain the survival of the species and is consistent across cultures and races.

Beyond this, there are social teachings that are provided by the society in which the individual lives in that can supersede these laws. It can teach people to kill each other or it can strengthen human sociable nature. Religion is only one of several ways to learn a grounding in this and it is perhaps the weakest because it shrouds morality in obscure mysticism.

Moral philosophies tend to be far better at reinforcing positive human nature that most people are born with.
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#40 Nova_Mongoose
Member since 2004 • 2261 Posts
[QUOTE="Nova_Mongoose"]
Actually, a real intelligent man would ponder the reality of his own exsistence, his impending demise, and the reason for both. If you cut out the debate and just look at what Jesus said, it all makes incredible sense! I'll sum it up so you can understand it in a nutshell, "Love other people" "Love your God" "Treat others the way you would want them to treat you" why is that so hard for some people to grasp??? Pure and simple: without God there is no reason for morality. without morality there is no reason for law. without law everythig would be utter chaos.Atrus


I never said anything about pondering existence, however this is entirely unrelated to the supposition that a deity exists. Additionally, your argument that the lack of religion gives no basis for morality or law is flawed.

Every species is evolved with a set of natural laws that define its behavioural parameters for survival. Humans are not only animals but it is a self-aware and sociable one. From this, the set of laws are such that maintain the survival of the species and is consistent across cultures and races.

Beyond this, there are social teachings that are provided by the society in which the individual lives in that can supersede these laws. It can teach people to kill each other or it can strengthen human sociable nature. Religion is only one of several ways to learn a grounding in this and it is perhaps the weakest because it shrouds morality in obscure mysticism.

Moral philosophies tend to be far better at reinforcing positive human nature that most people are born with.

Negative, I said a lack of God gives no basis for morality or law. What are these sets of "natural laws" you talk about? Do people really have them? You see, I'm in the Army and have heard stories of people throwing themselves on a grenade to save there buddies, an animal would never do that...it goes against every rule of "survival of the fittest" but it does show what truly seperates us from the animals-love. BTW we are not trained to do things like that. As for "religion" I have my own issues with that. But I'm one of those "Christian" people who does crazy obscure mystical things like "praying". Tell me what's wrong with my moral philosophy? "Do to other people as I would have them do to me" and  "Love my God"
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#41 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
OK that was too long to read.
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#42 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]

copy/paste/wall of text

god doesn't exist

Thanks-
I didn't copy and paste a single word. It was all written, by me, in the past two hours using a word processor. How come a communist like yourself is not able to realize that not every religious person is an ignoramus or a fool?

Communist? :|
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#43 Trashface
Member since 2006 • 3534 Posts
While Evolution is a scientific fact, no statement regard the existence or non-existence of God can be said to be scientifically derived.

In the absence of such proofs, the most reasonable answer vis a vis Occams Razor and plenty of other rational arguments, is to state that no such being exists until there is evidence.

If one has to derive a statement depending on available sources of information and reasoning, then in light of a proof, the highest probability falls to the Athiestic position as being very likely true. However this is all irrelevent as the question of Gods existence is purposeless. Everyone is born Agnostic about the concept of a God and only becomes presented with the Theistic/Atheistic case because of a social need to quantify belief and an assumption that morality is linked to religion.

Much like being asked whether you like Mauve or Fuschia, the question is only relevent because it is brought up and haragued upon and is otherwise irrelevent. The same exists for religion. Most people only cite their beliefs in what I'd like to call check-box syndrome, that they say so because they have to.

Most live in a nebulous understanding and practicing of their beliefs up till old age when the questions of mortality become more apparent. The only bad part is the extent with which religion seems to want to control the lives of other people beyond that of the one believer.
 Atrus
Evolution is a theory and is flawed. It is just as impossible to disprove God as to prove him. Another topic on this forum is about a man who fell 2 miles with no parachute and lived. There is no scientific explaination of this. Read my sig..it says it all.
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Atrus

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#44 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts


 Negative, I said a lack of God gives no basis for morality or law. What are these sets of "natural laws" you talk about? Do people really have them? You see, I'm in the Army and have heard stories of people throwing themselves on a grenade to save there buddies, an animal would never do that...it goes against every rule of "survival of the fittest" but it does show what truly seperates us from the animals-love. BTW we are not trained to do things like that. As for "religion" I have my own issues with that. But I'm one of those "Christian" people who does crazy obscure mystical things like "praying". Tell me what's wrong with my moral philosophy? "Do to other people as I would have them do to me" and "Love my God"Nova_Mongoose


One would be hard to point out a god without a religion.

As far as the natural laws, they're part of each species subset of survival. When I mean natural laws, these laws are not universal over all living things but are defined within each species themselves. Is it normal for a lion to kill it's pride? Is it normal for wolves or bears to abandon their young?

Humans are just like these animals, however unlike them we are also sociable and self-aware animals as well. Was your first thought to kill your parents? To cannibalize the childhood pet? Probably not. Your nature as a human has a natural proclivity toward being sociable. As such, whether you were born in different cultures, there has always been a congruous nature toward being sociable that is subverted by whatever nature that culture is.

This is why you find a similarity in different cultures toward what is right and what is wrong. We dictate good with the sociable and bad with the antisocial. Rape, murder, theft are all anti-social acts for instance and are almost universally decried, namely because such things produce instability in the social grouping. Now like animals there are exceptions, but like the other species the number of sociopaths are an extreme minority.

However this isn't the end all of human behaviour as each human is also affected by the environment they live in that can reinforce the naturalistic behaviours, create new idiomatic ones, and even create counter-intuitive behaviours. This is where someone under the pretense of doing good, can in fact blow themselves up and therefore create antisocial behaviour. If you're a Mayan whose society dictates sacrifice as a social good to appease the gods, then your moral is going to adapt to appease the social good.

This is where religion fails as a moral device as it obscures the nature of moral good and evil, or rather social and anti-social, in layers of mysticism and nebulous jargon. Just examine the bible itself, how much of that is actually moralistic theory? In fact, if you skim through several parts, there are things that are morally repugnant. In the same way acts of the Qur'an are used to justify murder, there are passages in bibles and other theological works that advocate similar misanthropic beliefs.

Now don't think that all of nature is dependant specifically on the survival of the fittest. While that is a central concept, it is not necessarily so straight forward, as what is "best"? There are things like the Zahavi handicap principle that may have to be taken into account where species evolve natural handicaps to survive better, or the evolution of mutually altruistic behaviour that supports and furthers communities, such as your jumping on grenade example, which is certainly an example of sociable behaviour.

Instead of teaching someone religion, it could certainly be beneficial if you were to replace that with a moral philosophy that pertains to reasoning out and applying the nature you were born with. There are some religious philosophical religions that do fine like Buddhism or entirely secular philosophies like Stoicism.
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Atrus

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#45 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts
Evolution is a theory and is flawed. It is just as impossible to disprove God as to prove him. Another topic on this forum is about a man who fell 2 miles with no parachute and lived. There is no scientific explaination of this. Read my sig..it says it all.Trashface


1. Evolution is a fact.
2. The theory of evolution is a theory of how things evolve not that they do evolve.
3. The theory is not flawed and is the basis for which many sciences have based actual results from. It's a cornerstone of modern biology. If you've ever gotten an immunization, you've subscribed to evolution.
4. Evolution is not a statement regarding the existence of a deity.
5. The inability to explain something with evidence does not mean the ability to explain that something away without evidence. Science is not the field of "we already know everything".
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Trashface

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#46 Trashface
Member since 2006 • 3534 Posts
[QUOTE="Trashface"]Evolution is a theory and is flawed. It is just as impossible to disprove God as to prove him. Another topic on this forum is about a man who fell 2 miles with no parachute and lived. There is no scientific explaination of this. Read my sig..it says it all.Atrus


1. Evolution is a fact.
2. The theory of evolution is a theory of how things evolve not that they do evolve.
3. The theory is not flawed and is the basis for which many sciences have based actual results from. It's a cornerstone of modern biology. If you've ever gotten an immunization, you've subscribed to evolution.
4. Evolution is not a statement regarding the existence of a deity.
5. The inability to explain something with evidence does not mean the ability to explain that something away without evidence. Science is not the field of "we already know everything".

As a concept, evolution is a fact. As a theory of creation, it is a theory which is flawed. If you've studied,then you know there are missing links. On an every day common sense level it makes no sense either. Evolution is about evolving and the obsolete being left behind. Reptiles were around long before humans yet according to the theory, we became superior. All of the inferior models are still in existance and ones far older than us did not evolve. Seems very flawed on even that basic level let alone the scientific flaws that exist.
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Atrus

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#47 Atrus
Member since 2002 • 10422 Posts
[QUOTE="Trashface"] As a concept, evolution is a fact. As a theory of creation, it is a theory which is flawed. If you've studied,then you know there are missing links. On an every day common sense level it makes no sense either. Evolution is about evolving and the obsolete being left behind. Reptiles were around long before humans yet according to the theory, we became superior. All of the inferior models are still in existance and ones far older than us did not evolve. Seems very flawed on even that basic level let alone the scientific flaws that exist.



1. There is no such thing as a missing link. This term is a media popularized term that refers to transitional fossils and there have been many documented cases of transitional fossils. The horse is a well documented example.

2. Whether or not it makes common sense to you is irrelevent as to whether or not it is true. Certainly it makes a great deal of sense and is a cornerstone of modern biology.

3. Evolution is not about leaving what is obsolete behind. Your understanding of actual evoltionary theory seems to be very poor. If you live in the US then this is no surprise and I'd say it underscores how ill-equiped the education system is over there. Not everything evolves at the same rate, nor do they evolve to some degree of humanity. Evolution is a system of evolved adaptations that seperate species.

4. Therefore since your understanding of Evolution itself is so fundamentally flawed, it is no wonder you don't see it as common sense. It is accepted fact for the majority of the Western world and the entire scientific community and I recommend you take a correspondance course to a Canadian based university. The reason I'm not recommending an American one is because I have no real idea as to how much your education system has been corrupted by religious dogmatism, what with Liberty University and all. If you don't live in the US, then subscribe to the best University that you country has.
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-Karayan-

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#48 -Karayan-
Member since 2006 • 6713 Posts
Take my advice, stick to software engineering. You haven't made the existence of God any less ridiculous.
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Trashface

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#49 Trashface
Member since 2006 • 3534 Posts

Whether evolution is fact is actually irrelevant to the original issue. The poster was saying evolution and  God can go hand in hand which is true. Evolution  could be a method of God. As far as proving the existance of God..if that did ever happen which it won't, then there would no longer be any such thing as faith which is a cornerstone of religion. It would make it easy for everyone to believe eliminating any seperation between the "wide road" amd "straight and narrow". That's theological though and pretty much irrelevant to the original post. It's possible that evolution is a factual method designed by God. That's what the original post is about.

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Trashface

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#50 Trashface
Member since 2006 • 3534 Posts
Take my advice, stick to software engineering. You haven't made the existence of God any less ridiculous.-Karayan-
No more ridiculous than automatically denying the possibility.