God vs. his Devil

[QUOTE="123625"]

God didn't create the Devil to be Evil. PrimordialMeme

Then god would not be all knowing and all powerful hence ominpotence and omniscience.

Sorry said it wrong. God did not create the Devil with the 'Intent' of him being Evil.

God doesn't create us to be bank robbers and murderers.

[QUOTE="ShadowTheHHFan"]

Yup. Which is why I'm not calvinist.

GabuEx

I think his point was that you said you took those verses out of context, and he was trying to show that an entire sect of Christianity believes them to mean what he said them to mean, thus asserting that it's not clear-cut that he was taking them out of context.

Oh, Well I didn't know that when he pointed those verses out to me the first time. WHich is what i said he took it out of context because of belie...

Crap, I'm lost now. This is what I get for posting at 3 O'clock at night. I probably mis-typed or mis-understood somewhere.

Ok pretty much, he presented that argument to me, I said he took it out of context according to my religion, then he said that he was presenting the argument according to calvinist belief. Except I'm not calvinist so his argument doesn't effect me...

Oh btw. I'm done for tonight. I'm supposed to be up at 10 anyway.

[QUOTE="PrimordialMeme"][QUOTE="123625"]

God didn't create the Devil to be Evil. 123625

Then god would not be all knowing and all powerful hence ominpotence and omniscience.

Sorry said it wrong. God did not create the Devil with the 'Intent' of him being Evil.

No more nuance there.

You did want to define the words omnipotence and omniscience to define god, yes?

Sorry said it wrong. God did not create the Devil with the 'Intent' of him being Evil.

God doesn't create us to be bank robbers and murderers.

123625

I think his point - which I actually think is valid, and my main problem with the concept of hell - goes something like this:

1. God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.

2. God created Lucifer with free will.

3. Since God is all-knowing, God knew upon creating Lucifer that he would become evil.

4. Thus, God created Lucifer anyway despite this knowledge.

5. When Lucifer turned evil, God became angry and cast him into hell eternally as punishment.

6. Since God is all-knowing, God knew that this is what would happen when he created Lucifer.

7. Thus God created Lucifer knowing full well that he would turn evil and be cast into hell eternally as punishment.

This, to me, would bring up a problem with the very first assertion, which would imply one of three things:

1. God is not all-knowing: God did not know that Lucifer would turn evil.

2. God is not all-powerful: God could not stop Lucifer from being created.

3. God is not all-loving: God did not care that he was creating something that he knew would be damned to hell eternally.

This argument could be very easily modified to show a similar problem with God damning humans to hell for their sins, too.

1. God is not all-knowing: God did not know that Lucifer would turn evil.

2. God is not all-powerful: God could not stop Lucifer from being created.

3. God is not all-loving: God did not care that he was creating something that he knew would be damned to hell eternally.

This argument could be very easily modified to show a similar problem with God damning humans to hell for their sins, too.

GabuEx

Maybe God isn't all loving. Maybe he's a big prick who creates people just to send them to hell. But that god gives no comfort, so of course few would believe.

1. God is not all-knowing: God did not know that Lucifer would turn evil.

2. God is not all-powerful: God could not stop Lucifer from being created.

3. God is not all-loving: God did not care that he was creating something that he knew would be damned to hell eternally.

GabuEx

I almost wanted to resist making another post, but I have to say. Well done argumentation.

Cliff notes to the epicurean paradox ladies and gentlemen.

Maybe God isn't all loving. Maybe he's a big prick who creates people just to send them to hell. But that god gives no comfort, so of course few would believe.

Rhazakna

Which is of course logically possible, but it's not a god stated to exist by any religion.

Anyway, there's also a fourth option that I didn't list above, which is that God does not, in fact, damn people to eternal suffering in hell. If there is a god, I personally think that that's the likeliest option. But that's another story.

[QUOTE="PrimordialMeme"][QUOTE="123625"]

I would say yes the devil is the source of evil

123625

So then, since god created the devil...

God didn't create the Devil to be Evil. He most likely created the Devil with free will and it chose to reject and go against God. Of course if I'm wrong please correct me, (my beleif is christianity).

As I recall, God created Lucifer, the greatest of the Angels in Heaven. He gave all the angels free will. Lucifer himself contested God's power and wanted to take the throne. So God cast Lucifer in to Hell along with other rebellious angels. After that, he became known as Satan.

...and also, I hope you meant to say "incomprehensible."

its_me_

Yeah, probably a typo that I didn't notice because it sort of looks right.

Epicurus has been refuted thousands of times since he first said that.

Question: Why do people act like the Problem of Evil is some super-smart new breakthrough in religious ideas? People have been dealing with it since the beginning of time, and if you would just search for it, you can find some good answers for the question.

[QUOTE="123625"]

I would say yes the devil is the source of evil

PrimordialMeme

So then, since god created the devil...

Where does the Bible say that?

On the subject of God and evil, I've always been of the mind that the existence of evil is - ironically enough - the lesser of two evils. The whole reason why humans are able to appreciate the good in life is because the bad exists. People derive real happiness from overcoming adversity.

GabuEx

But if they were just made to be happy (as if they were in "heaven" or some such) to begin with and incapable of pain or unhappiness, that wouldn't be necessary, would it?

As I recall, God created Lucifer, the greatest of the Angels in Heaven. He gave all the angels free will. Lucifer himself contested God's power and wanted to take the throne. So God cast Lucifer in to Hell along with other rebellious angels. After that, he became known as Satan.

Red-XIII

There's that "free will" again. So the decisions of "free will" are made by what if not your physical brain which resides in the physical world, which is ruled by...physics? What determines your thoughts and your choices? They have to come from SOMEWHERE in the end.

[QUOTE="Red-XIII"]

As I recall, God created Lucifer, the greatest of the Angels in Heaven. He gave all the angels free will. Lucifer himself contested God's power and wanted to take the throne. So God cast Lucifer in to Hell along with other rebellious angels. After that, he became known as Satan.

SpaceMoose

There's that "free will" again. So the decisions of "free will" are made by what if not your physical brain which resides in the physical world, which is ruled by...physics? What determines your thoughts and your choices? They have to come from SOMEWHERE in the end.

And then that something has to come from somewhere, and then that something has to come from somewhere, and. . . . . .

No matter what answer you get, there will always be a "and then what?" that will inevitably lead you into a line of infinite regress that just cannot be comprehended by the human mind. Eventually, the line of infinite regress has to end at something eternal. Call that God if you want.

Either you believe an eternal entity started a long line of questions, or you believe these questions go on forever. Either way, you're stuck believing something that really makes you angry at the limited potential of the human mind.

God wants glory

What glory do u get from forcing everthing to be right?

God is a playing a game but he doesn't want to use the cheats even though he has them all, or at least not using some of them.

God is selfish and judemental

He is classified as Holy, Holy, Holy in some old forms of hebrew that get multiplied by itself 3 times or somthing making it Holyx27.

The idea is that God has the right to be this way.

And then that something has to come from somewhere, and then that something has to come from somewhere, and. . . . . .

No matter what answer you get, there will always be a "and then what?" that will inevitably lead you into a line of infinite regress that just cannot be comprehended by the human mind. Eventually, the line of infinite regress has to end at something eternal. Call that God if you want.

Either you believe an eternal entity started a long line of questions, or you believe these questions go on forever. Either way, you're stuck believing something that really makes you angry at the limited potential of the human mind.

Dracargen

Thats one of the main reasons I became religious in the way I am now....

For any Haters!!: Yes, thats right became, not forced on by parents who suposedly are stuck in the 13th century.

God got bored so he made a buddy, but the buddy said he preffered Sony over Microsoft, so God became angry and with that anger he created Hell and exiled his buddy to that place.R0cky_Racc00n

-SegaGenesis 2:15-16

And then that something has to come from somewhere, and then that something has to come from somewhere, and. . . . . .

No matter what answer you get, there will always be a "and then what?" that will inevitably lead you into a line of infinite regress that just cannot be comprehended by the human mind. Eventually, the line of infinite regress has to end at something eternal. Call that God if you want.

Dracargen

Yes, but my point is that your decisions must come from somewhere. Nothing can function outside of the rules of nature, whatever precisely those may be, because that doesn't make sense. Whether something "created" those rules or they simply just exist does not change that.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

And then that something has to come from somewhere, and then that something has to come from somewhere, and. . . . . .

No matter what answer you get, there will always be a "and then what?" that will inevitably lead you into a line of infinite regress that just cannot be comprehended by the human mind. Eventually, the line of infinite regress has to end at something eternal. Call that God if you want.

SpaceMoose

Yes, but my point is that your decisions must come from somewhere. Nothing can function outside of the rules of nature, whatever precisely those may be, because that doesn't make sense. Whether something "created" those rules or they simply just exist does not change that.

That's silly. You might as well expect an artist to die if he gets wet, just because his pictures will be ruined if they get wet.

That's silly. You might as well expect an artist to die if he gets wet, just because his pictures will be ruined if they get wet.

Dracargen

That seems like a rather non-sequitur argument. What on Earth does that have to do with making decisions? He decided to die? What are you saying? Whatever it is, I'm fairly certain that it doesn't really make sense as a reply to my post.

That seems like a rather non-sequitur argument. What on Earth does that have to do with making decisions? He decided to die? What are you saying? Whatever it is, I'm fairly certain that it doesn't really make sense as a reply to my post.

SpaceMoose

I think his point was that it's not necessarily true that the rules governing a world also govern the creator of that world. Perhaps a better analogy would be to look at a video game and expect its creator to be bound to the same rules as those within the video game.

I think his point was that it's not necessarily true that the rules governing a world also govern the creator of that world. Perhaps a better analogy would be to look at a video game and expect its creator to be bound to the same rules as those within the video game.

GabuEx

The rules that govern the creator would govern the creator's world by proxy, since they would determine what rules the creator creates. (I realize that doesn't contradict what you are saying.)

Anyway, he seems to have been arguing with something I didn't even actually say. Either way, the entire analogy falls apart for a lot of reasons, with one of them being that, yes, the painting would be ruined, but it would be ruined by the same laws of physics by which the painter is not. The painting doesn't really have much to do with the concept of "choice" at any rate, and thus I'm completely baffled as to what this was supposed to have to do with my post which he replied to.

[QUOTE="R0cky_Racc00n"]God got bored so he made a buddy, but the buddy said he preffered Sony over Microsoft, so God became angry and with that anger he created Hell and exiled his buddy to that place.the1stfandb

-SegaGenesis 2:15-16

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]Why the hell do athiests make religion topics, at least study the BASICS of theology before you even think you know what your talking about. God can Prevent evil, he is just so loving he gave us a free will to do as we choose. He won't take that free will away from us because we are made in his image with the ability to choose to do what we want. Thats why there are athiests in this world. If God had stepped in and taken free will away you wouldn't have a choice in what to believe.

News flash.

Theology is crap. No athiest gives a damn about theology. A child is as equally able to discuss religious matters as an adult with a Phd in Theology.

'Why the hell do athiests make religon topics': because we can. Its what we do. Just as people come and preach on street corners and harrass people, athiests make posts on the internet. The internet is OUR domain. When we harass people, we do it online.

News flash.

Theology is crap. No athiest gives a damn about theology. A child is as equally able to discuss religious matters as an adult with a Phd in Theology.

'Why the hell do athiests make religon topics': because we can. Its what we do. Just as people come and preach on street corners and harrass people, athiests make posts on the internet. The internet is OUR domain. When we harass people, we do it online.

RKfromDownunder

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I suppose philosophy is crap now? How pathetic. By the way, you don't get a Ph.D in Theology; you get a Th.D.

Gee, I can only wonder why people consider atheism to be a religion. Could be because of fundamentalists like yourself?

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

That's silly. You might as well expect an artist to die if he gets wet, just because his pictures will be ruined if they get wet.

SpaceMoose

That seems like a rather non-sequitur argument. What on Earth does that have to do with making decisions? He decided to die? What are you saying? Whatever it is, I'm fairly certain that it doesn't really make sense as a reply to my post.

Ah, I misread. My apologies.

[QUOTE="RKfromDownunder"]

News flash.

Theology is crap. No athiest gives a damn about theology. A child is as equally able to discuss religious matters as an adult with a Phd in Theology.

'Why the hell do athiests make religon topics': because we can. Its what we do. Just as people come and preach on street corners and harrass people, athiests make posts on the internet. The internet is OUR domain. When we harass people, we do it online.

Dracargen

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I suppose philosophy is crap now? How pathetic. By the way, you don't get a Ph.D in Theology; you get a Th.D.

Gee, I can only wonder why people consider atheism to be a religion. Could be because of fundamentalists like yourself?

Philosophy is not based on metaphysical ideals.

This is not something that I have just made up on the spot. Ask any secular humanist, theology is not something to be respected or listened to. Using circular logic to prove the existence of god will win you nothing from a group who care only for cold hard fact.

How could you even draw links to philosophy and theology. They are so completely different you might as well try relate peace with religion, thats about how similar they are.

And I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm not even a true athiest, as I don't rule out the possiblity of God. I have no definite opinion either way. Its just something I feel particulary strong about. No one has more authority than another on this kind of discussion. A friend of my family dropped out of his degree that he had almost completed to take up a degree Theology. He wanted it becuase he has political aspirations, he wanted to be able to 'argue with secularists on equal footing'.

I lost a great deal of respect for him that day. Just what the world needs. MORE religion in politics. Not that any athiest politician (where I live they do exist) would give a damn whether he was the world's greatest theologian or not.

Philosophy is not based on metaphysical ideals.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Holy crap, that was awesome. Here's what philosophy is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

No metaphysics in there.:lol: Please.

This is not something that I have just made up on the spot. Ask any secular humanist, theology is not something to be respected or listened to. Using circular logic to prove the existence of god will win you nothing from a group who care only for cold hard fact.

:lol:

You don't even know what theology is! :lol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology

Oh, and why don't you tell these men what theology is? I'm sure they'll give a flying **** about what secular humanists think about theology.:lol:

I also like how you say "secular humanist" as if they are experts in what they do just because of it. You wanna talk circular reasoning? Let's talk circular reasoning.

How could you even draw links to philosophy and theology. They are so completely different you might as well try relate peace with religion, thats about how similar they are.

Duh-huh?

Theology IS philosophy; it's a form of philosophy! My God, are you a parody?

And I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm not even a true athiest, as I don't rule out the possiblity of God. I have no definite opinion either way. Its just something I feel particulary strong about. No one has more authority than another on this kind of discussion.

The hell they don't. Some men actually know the meaning of philosophy and theology. Some don't. Does one have more authority to speak about the two than the other? On the existence of God, there are people who actually study rather than act like an entire school subject is "crap" on the Internet.:roll:

A friend of my family dropped out of his degree that he had almost completed to take up a degree Theology. He wanted it becuase he has political aspirations, he wanted to be able to 'argue with secularists on equal footing'.

I lost a great deal of respect for him that day. Just what the world needs. MORE religion in politics. Not that any athiest politician (where I live they do exist) would give a damn whether he was the world's greatest theologian or not.

And? Why do you care so much about what people want to study? Because they want to actually learn something? Who the **** CARES what the atheists in your town think? A lot of the theists in my town think God exists. Who cares what ANYONE thinks of him but him?

Seriously, are you a parody? Poe's Law prevents me from telling whether you are or not.

RKfromDownunder

Why the hell do athiests make religion topics, at least study the BASICS of theology before you even think you know what your talking about. God can Prevent evil, he is just so loving he gave us a free will to do as we choose. He won't take that free will away from us because we are made in his image with the ability to choose to do what we want. Thats why there are athiests in this world. If God had stepped in and taken free will away you wouldn't have a choice in what to believe.ferrari2001

I used to be a Christian. You aren't talking to someone who doesn't know your view. And um, what does that add? Why would god allow evil competition that is non human?

enough saidhalfnaked

true but majority of those people were seen as wicked, or an abomination in some form or manner. I don't see how the existance of evil disproves all concepts of God, gods, or the True Creator God. perhaps they're all entitys that dwell higher than humans. but many questions arise when untestable concepts about the universe are considered.

[QUOTE="RKfromDownunder"]

News flash.

Theology is crap. No athiest gives a damn about theology. A child is as equally able to discuss religious matters as an adult with a Phd in Theology.

'Why the hell do athiests make religon topics': because we can. Its what we do. Just as people come and preach on street corners and harrass people, athiests make posts on the internet. The internet is OUR domain. When we harass people, we do it online.

Dracargen

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I suppose philosophy is crap now? How pathetic. By the way, you don't get a Ph.D in Theology; you get a Th.D.

Gee, I can only wonder why people consider atheism to be a religion. Could be because of fundamentalists like yourself?

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="RKfromDownunder"]

News flash.

Theology is crap. No athiest gives a damn about theology. A child is as equally able to discuss religious matters as an adult with a Phd in Theology.

'Why the hell do athiests make religon topics': because we can. Its what we do. Just as people come and preach on street corners and harrass people, athiests make posts on the internet. The internet is OUR domain. When we harass people, we do it online.

Quent1015

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I suppose philosophy is crap now? How pathetic. By the way, you don't get a Ph.D in Theology; you get a Th.D.

Gee, I can only wonder why people consider atheism to be a religion. Could be because of fundamentalists like yourself?

I didn't call it a religion, smarty.:roll: