Greater body Count: Religion or Atheism?

but heck, if you can't argue maturely, just make assumptions and insults... good...Stumpt25

:lol: I didn't insult you at all. Lighten up.

It's just that I've only seen right wing, anti-evolutionnutjobs linking "darwinism" to nazism.....at least recently.

[QUOTE="LosDaddie"]

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"] Pick up any high school text book, look in the index. I can almost guarentee that you will find 'social darwinism' in there. and no, i'm an agnostic.Stumpt25

And? There's no direct link of social darwinism to nazism. I've only seen anti-evolution neo-cons try to link the two.

So you use one example of Nazis killing the weak and now Social Darwinism was the main driving force ofNazism? Really? :lol: That doesn't explain Hitler's hatred of Jews though.

It's good that you don't want to teach history. It's clear you have an agenda.

[QUOTE="tomo90"][QUOTE="Stumpt25"] Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler etc.Stumpt25

Religious people =/= religion any more than nonreligious person = nonreligion.

[QUOTE="tomo90"][QUOTE="Stumpt25"] Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler etc.Stumpt25

Notice the part where you said "replace with swastikas". Hitler wasn't in favor of installing atheism as the forced religious stance for his populace, he wanted the Nazi party to be worshipped. Indeed, this is the case with all of the cases of "atheist" regimes you listed. Oppressive regimes tend to oust religion because they want the citizens to fully devote themselves to the government, not a religion. Religions also have this annoying habit of getting people together in large groups on a regular basis which makes it easy for rebellion movements to spring up. Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with it. Besides, the vast majority (ie just about all of) the killings commited by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hitler's regimes were targeted against political rivals, rebels, alleged "spies", and other threats to the state's rule (which in the case of Hitler also included any "undesirables" such as Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally disabled/ill).

It really frustrates me how everytime this sort of topic comes up theists always go straight to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hitler as evidence that atheism is just as bad as theism. Please. Just because an atheist kills someone doesn't mean that atheism was responsible. There's a difference between killing a guy because you have something to gain from it and killing a guy because you believe your religion demands it (sacrifice, divine mandates, etc).

OK, lets clear something up. Atheism is NOT a religion, it is simply the lack of belief in a supernatural God. Saying that all atheists are responsible for what one atheist does is **** I don't recall reading an atheist "bible" that tells us to kill all theists or to stone homosexuals or to not have sex because God will be displeased. In fact, atheists do not have a "book". Saying that the reason Stalin killed millions is due to the fact that he did not believe in a supernatural God is stupid, you can't make that assumption. When he imprisoned and murdered those millions he did so because they challenged HIM, the absolute authority!

Now look at theism, how many Muslims have exploded themselves in supermarkets or in buses in the name of their god Allah? Plenty! How many people died during the Inquisition? Why did these people die? Because they challenged the Bible or were accused of being witches.

Some people may say "well Stalin killed people AND was an atheist". To that I say so what? I don't hold theists of any religion responsible for the acts of other theists who commit terrible acts of violence, I hold the religion itself responsible. Atheism is not a religion however, the only thing you can criticize an atheist for is his disbelief in a god. You can't blame atheism for crimes of atheists because atheism is not an organized religion, an atheist has free will like any other person and what he does with his free will is entirely up to him.

Now you may ask, but what about "the Atheist experience" or the "rational response squad", aren't they organized atheists? I say: Yes they are however if they were to murder a family, atheism isn't to blame! The burden falls on the individuals themselves for being sick bastards.

OK, lets clear something up. Atheism is NOT a religion, it is simply the lack of belief in a supernatural God. Saying that all atheists are responsible for what one atheist does is **** I don't recall reading an atheist "bible" that tells us to kill all theists or to stone homosexuals or to not have sex because God will be displeased. In fact, atheists do not have a "book". Saying that the reason Stalin killed millions is due to the fact that he did not believe in a supernatural God is stupid, you can't make that assumption. When he imprisoned and murdered those millions he did so because they challenged HIM, the absolute authority!

Now look at theism, how many Muslims have exploded themselves in supermarkets or in buses in the name of their god Allah? Plenty! How many people died during the Inquisition? Why did these people die? Because they challenged the Bible or were accused of being witches.

Some people may say "well Stalin killed people AND was an atheist". To that I say so what? I don't hold theists of any religion responsible for the acts of other theists who commit terrible acts of violence, I hold the religion itself responsible. Atheism is not a religion however, the only thing you can criticize an atheist for is his disbelief in a god. You can't blame atheism for crimes of atheists because atheism is not an organized religion, an atheist has free will like any other person and what he does with his free will is entirely up to him.

Now you may ask, but what about "the Atheist experience" or the "rational response squad", aren't they organized atheists? I say: Yes they are however if they were to murder a family, atheism isn't to blame! The burden falls on the individuals themselves for being sick bastards.

Tezcatlipoca666

So, basically, a sick bastard that's an atheist is a sick bastard regardless of atheism; a theistic sick bastard is so because of his theism.

Something doesn't add up here. You also contradict yourself again and again: one minute you say the individual is responsible but then you imply several times that the entire group is responsible since the religion is organised.

As for the Inquisitions: more people die in a Texas prison every year than the entire Inquisition period.

[QUOTE="Tezcatlipoca666"]

OK, lets clear something up. Atheism is NOT a religion, it is simply the lack of belief in a supernatural God. Saying that all atheists are responsible for what one atheist does is **** I don't recall reading an atheist "bible" that tells us to kill all theists or to stone homosexuals or to not have sex because God will be displeased. In fact, atheists do not have a "book". Saying that the reason Stalin killed millions is due to the fact that he did not believe in a supernatural God is stupid, you can't make that assumption. When he imprisoned and murdered those millions he did so because they challenged HIM, the absolute authority!

Now look at theism, how many Muslims have exploded themselves in supermarkets or in buses in the name of their god Allah? Plenty! How many people died during the Inquisition? Why did these people die? Because they challenged the Bible or were accused of being witches.

Some people may say "well Stalin killed people AND was an atheist". To that I say so what? I don't hold theists of any religion responsible for the acts of other theists who commit terrible acts of violence, I hold the religion itself responsible. Atheism is not a religion however, the only thing you can criticize an atheist for is his disbelief in a god. You can't blame atheism for crimes of atheists because atheism is not an organized religion, an atheist has free will like any other person and what he does with his free will is entirely up to him.

Now you may ask, but what about "the Atheist experience" or the "rational response squad", aren't they organized atheists? I say: Yes they are however if they were to murder a family, atheism isn't to blame! The burden falls on the individuals themselves for being sick bastards.

Theokhoth

So, basically, a sick bastard that's an atheist is a sick bastard regardless of atheism; a theistic sick bastard is so because of his theism.

Something doesn't add up here. You also contradict yourself again and again: one minute you say the individual is responsible but then you imply several times that the entire group is responsible since the religion is organised.

As for the Inquisitions: more people die in a Texas prison every year than the entire Inquisition period.

Sorry if I sound incoherent, I try to be clear while typing in English but it doesn't always end up that way. Anyway, I don't mean to say that all theist are responsible for one theists act. What I am trying to say is that...

A sick bastard will kill someone because he is sick, but for a normal individual to kill someone it takes a powerful ideology. In this case religion (but it could also be a political ideology or w/e). For example, a Muslim suicide bomber is not necessarily a sick bastard, he is probably very normal but convinced that he is doing a great favor for his god and will be greatly rewarded for killing his gods enemies (who are always demonized).

[QUOTE="SlasherZed"]

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"]Which is responsible for a greater loss of human life? Is it even possible to point the finger at either one of these? I hope this will be an interesting debate. :)Stumpt25

Ermmmmm

How has Atheism ever killed anyone?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Tezcatlipoca666"]

OK, lets clear something up. Atheism is NOT a religion, it is simply the lack of belief in a supernatural God. Saying that all atheists are responsible for what one atheist does is **** I don't recall reading an atheist "bible" that tells us to kill all theists or to stone homosexuals or to not have sex because God will be displeased. In fact, atheists do not have a "book". Saying that the reason Stalin killed millions is due to the fact that he did not believe in a supernatural God is stupid, you can't make that assumption. When he imprisoned and murdered those millions he did so because they challenged HIM, the absolute authority!

Now look at theism, how many Muslims have exploded themselves in supermarkets or in buses in the name of their god Allah? Plenty! How many people died during the Inquisition? Why did these people die? Because they challenged the Bible or were accused of being witches.

Some people may say "well Stalin killed people AND was an atheist". To that I say so what? I don't hold theists of any religion responsible for the acts of other theists who commit terrible acts of violence, I hold the religion itself responsible. Atheism is not a religion however, the only thing you can criticize an atheist for is his disbelief in a god. You can't blame atheism for crimes of atheists because atheism is not an organized religion, an atheist has free will like any other person and what he does with his free will is entirely up to him.

Now you may ask, but what about "the Atheist experience" or the "rational response squad", aren't they organized atheists? I say: Yes they are however if they were to murder a family, atheism isn't to blame! The burden falls on the individuals themselves for being sick bastards.

Tezcatlipoca666

So, basically, a sick bastard that's an atheist is a sick bastard regardless of atheism; a theistic sick bastard is so because of his theism.

Something doesn't add up here. You also contradict yourself again and again: one minute you say the individual is responsible but then you imply several times that the entire group is responsible since the religion is organised.

As for the Inquisitions: more people die in a Texas prison every year than the entire Inquisition period.

Sorry if I sound incoherent, I try to be clear while typing in English. Anyway, a quote to explain what I was trying to explain.

I don't mean to say that all theist are responsible for one theists act. What I am trying to say in a very concise way is that...

A sick bastard will kill someone because he is sick, but for a normal individual to kill someone it takes a powerful ideology. In this case religion (but it could also be a political ideology or w/e). For example, a Muslim suicide bomber is not necessarily a sick bastard, he is probably very normal but convinced that he is doing a great favor for his god and will be greatly rewarded for killing his gods enemies (who are always demonized).

So why is Islam to blame for the Muslim's belief that he is doing God a favor, rather than the Muslim, who can easily be a Muslim and yet not kill anybody?

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"][QUOTE="SlasherZed"]

Ermmmmm

How has Atheism ever killed anyone?

zombiefruit

Stalin was an expressed atheist and killed theists of all religions for contradicting his secular communistic state. Hitler despised Christianity and has been quoted on referring it to Bolshevism (which he also hated) and a poison. What Nazi soldiers believed is irrelevant; they would follow orders regardless, and many Nazi soldiers were atheists anyway.

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"][QUOTE="SlasherZed"]

Ermmmmm

How has Atheism ever killed anyone?

zombiefruit

[QUOTE="Tezcatlipoca666"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

So, basically, a sick bastard that's an atheist is a sick bastard regardless of atheism; a theistic sick bastard is so because of his theism.

Something doesn't add up here. You also contradict yourself again and again: one minute you say the individual is responsible but then you imply several times that the entire group is responsible since the religion is organised.

As for the Inquisitions: more people die in a Texas prison every year than the entire Inquisition period.

Theokhoth

Sorry if I sound incoherent, I try to be clear while typing in English. Anyway, a quote to explain what I was trying to explain.

I don't mean to say that all theist are responsible for one theists act. What I am trying to say in a very concise way is that...

A sick bastard will kill someone because he is sick, but for a normal individual to kill someone it takes a powerful ideology. In this case religion (but it could also be a political ideology or w/e). For example, a Muslim suicide bomber is not necessarily a sick bastard, he is probably very normal but convinced that he is doing a great favor for his god and will be greatly rewarded for killing his gods enemies (who are always demonized).

So why is Islam to blame for the Muslim's belief that he is doing God a favor, rather than the Muslim, who can easily be a Muslim and yet not kill anybody?

The religion is to be blamed. We all know that in all of the major monotheistic religions (notably Islam and Christianity) holy books it says that there is only one true God. It also says to convert or otherwise kill all non-believers.

To answer your question I have to make a distinction between extremist believers and moderate believers. Most Christians nowadays are moderate meaning that they don't take all parts of their holy books literally. Extremists on the other hand do take their holy books literally and this can lead them to sacrifice themselves and kill in the name of their God.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Tezcatlipoca666"]

Sorry if I sound incoherent, I try to be clear while typing in English. Anyway, a quote to explain what I was trying to explain.

I don't mean to say that all theist are responsible for one theists act. What I am trying to say in a very concise way is that...

A sick bastard will kill someone because he is sick, but for a normal individual to kill someone it takes a powerful ideology. In this case religion (but it could also be a political ideology or w/e). For example, a Muslim suicide bomber is not necessarily a sick bastard, he is probably very normal but convinced that he is doing a great favor for his god and will be greatly rewarded for killing his gods enemies (who are always demonized).

Tezcatlipoca666

So why is Islam to blame for the Muslim's belief that he is doing God a favor, rather than the Muslim, who can easily be a Muslim and yet not kill anybody?

The religion is to be blamed. We all know that in all of the major monotheistic religions (notably Islam and Christianity) holy books it says that there is only one true God. It also says to convert or otherwise kill all non-believers.

Er, what? I don't think you've read these books. . .

To answer your question I have to make a distinction between extremist believers and moderate believers. Most Christians nowadays are moderate meaning that they don't take all parts of their holy books literally.

That's not what a moderate is. . .

Extremists on the other hand do take their holy books literally

That's not what an extremist is. . .

and this can lead them to sacrifice themselves and kill in the name of their God.

Yes, but how is the religion responsible for this and not the extremists? In both cases of the moderate and the extremist, the religion is still there: it is unchanged and present in both of their lives. So if your logic held water, both moderate and extremist would be killing people for their religion; it's the same in determining causation in a scientific experiment. If the Dependent Variable changes when the Independent Variable does, and there are no other changed conditions, then the Independent Variable must have caused the change. If not, then the Independent Variable doesn't cause the change.

Perhaps I should simplify my argument...

1. People do not kill "in the name of Atheism" because that would stupid and doesn't make sense (a fundy would have to agree, why kill for "nothing).

2. People DO kill in the name of their Gods. Not all but many do and looking at the past we see extreme violence motivated by religious convictions.

3. If there was no religion, people wouldn't be killing each other to defend their God (as if he need defending if he was omnipotent).

Before you ask, yes people would still kill each other for other reasons... we would simply have one less reason to do so.

Edit: Richard Dawkins explains many of my views very clearly.