health care privilege or right?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]The health care bill doesn't nationalize the health care industry, therefore it is in no way comparable to the UK system. As far as rationing goes, we already ration care in the U.S. by ability to pay.airshocker

That's how life is, unfortunately. If you can't afford it, you don't get it. In the case of healthcare, it's the insurance companies who are the real evil. But putting the government in charge of the whole thing is a recipe for disaster.

We were supporting Saddam Hussein in the 80s, too. Funny how things change. What do you think of the US education system? Would you advocate it being changed from how it is now... that is, privatized? Should children have to pay to go to school?SkylinePigeon

Don't straw-man.

We're talking about health-care. I have no obligation to pay for anybody else except me and my family. Why should I pay a tax when it's going to infringe on my own pursuit of life, liberty and happiness?

I just have a problem with a goverment telling me I have to buy Heathcare or be subject to fines.

Just because that's how life "is" doesn't mean that's how life ought to be. And I'll say it again, the health care bill doesn't put the government in charge of the health care system.-Sun_Tzu-

Then you can donate all of your paychecks to people who need the money. That's your right. Don't expect me to do the same.

And yes it does.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Which is ridiculous, seeing as only the top percent of the population can afford healthcare without insurance (and in many cases with insurance). Is that what the Founding Fathers wanted? People given special treatment and better lives because they're richer? If so then the Founding Fathers were utterly wrong and should be discounted in that regard.

airshocker

I'm pretty sure the founding fathers didn't expect me to pay for care I won't even be receiving.

I'm not saying it isn't horrible, but it's not my problem. I have insurance. I've always been covered for things I needed to get done. Why should I have to pay extra money for people who can't afford it? You aren't answering that question to me.

And you can't, because there is nothing you can say that would rationalize me being taxed for someone else's health. That's why this country was founded upon freedom.

The Founding Fathers had a tax system. You pay for things you don't receive. Ever have to call the police? Maybe only once or twice in your whole life? Yet you pay for that.

Because the right to life is a universal human right. Healthcare is necessary to life, therefore access to healthcare should not be impeded; to do so is to violate the right to life.

Yes, freedom to rot and die because people more fortunate than you are selfish. "It's not my problem." I'm sure that's what they had in mind.

Its a right :( its a shame others dont see it that way. Charging high amounts for medical help I think is awful.... This and being able to choose when you die should definately be a given. Thats why I give treatment for free outside of clinic , although yes I am still a student and I do it for people for practice I could easily charge these people seeing as people pay to see me and the other students in clinic.wigan_gamer

There's no such thing as a "universal right" (taken for granted) in this world; in less fancy terms, it's just a consensus made by the majority or the powerful within or beyond borders.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Which is ridiculous, seeing as only the top percent of the population can afford healthcare without insurance (and in many cases with insurance). Is that what the Founding Fathers wanted? People given special treatment and better lives because they're richer? If so then the Founding Fathers were utterly wrong and should be discounted in that regard.

airshocker

I'm pretty sure the founding fathers didn't expect me to pay for care I won't even be receiving.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Which is ridiculous, seeing as only the top percent of the population can afford healthcare without insurance (and in many cases with insurance). Is that what the Founding Fathers wanted? People given special treatment and better lives because they're richer? If so then the Founding Fathers were utterly wrong and should be discounted in that regard.

airshocker

I'm pretty sure the founding fathers didn't expect me to pay for care I won't even be receiving.

I'm not saying it isn't horrible, but it's not my problem. I have insurance. I've always been covered for things I needed to get done. Why should I have to pay extra money for people who can't afford it? You aren't answering that question to me.

And you can't, because there is nothing you can say that would rationalize me being taxed for someone else's health. That's why this country was founded upon freedom.

I just have a problem with a goverment telling me I have to buy Heathcare or be subject to fines.

Why are you just fine with taxes for the things I've mentioned, yet healthcare just terrifies you? You act like you'll pay a million dollars out of your weekly check for one or two people to get healthcare WHEN YOU WILL NOT; you will pay a couple of bucks and so will everybody else; in turn everyone will have access to healthcare and will be allowed to, you know, live if there's an acccident. Just like with roads.

Theokhoth

You have no idea what the cost will be. I'm being led to believe it's going to be much more than that. Prove me wrong.

I already pay 164 dollars a month in Federal taxes. They can use that for healthcare.

I'm not obligated to pay for anybody else. That's the fact. You haven't changed that with your arguments that make absolutely no sense.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Just because that's how life "is" doesn't mean that's how life ought to be. And I'll say it again, the health care bill doesn't put the government in charge of the health care system.airshocker

Then you can donate all of your paychecks to people who need the money. That's your right. Don't expect me to do the same.

And yes it does.

How do you know you won't be receiving it. I'm pretty sure people don't get into car accidents knowing prior to the accident that they would be involved. Something could happen at any time.xTheExploited

Because I have private insurance. I'm not going to be on the government plan. So why should I have to pay for it?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Why are you just fine with taxes for the things I've mentioned, yet healthcare just terrifies you? You act like you'll pay a million dollars out of your weekly check for one or two people to get healthcare WHEN YOU WILL NOT; you will pay a couple of bucks and so will everybody else; in turn everyone will have access to healthcare and will be allowed to, you know, live if there's an acccident. Just like with roads.

airshocker

You have no idea what the cost will be. I'm being led to believe it's going to be much more than that. Prove me wrong.

I already pay 164 dollars a month in Federal taxes. They can use that for healthcare.

I'm not obligated to pay for anybody else. That's the fact. You haven't changed that with your arguments that make absolutely no sense.

Support your position first. What makes you think you'll pay more than that? You've been making baseless claims all throughout the topic ("The UK is rationing healthcare") without any proof yet demanding proof left and right.

Except they already use it for all those other things.

If you pay taxes, then yes you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Don't believe me? Stop paying taxes and see how the government reacts.

I believe it to be a right. The U.S. government also believes it to be a right as well. It's been that way ever since we voted in favor of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was then adopted by the UN, that among other things states;

"Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

And yet somehow we are the only developed country without universal health care.

-Sun_Tzu-

No it doesn't. Show me where in the bill it says that the entire health care system will become nationalized - where hospitals will be completely run by the federal government and all doctors become government employees. -Sun_Tzu-

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm2381.cfm

Show me where it doesn't. Show me, EXACTLY, why our system won't turn out like Great Britain's. Or Maine's.

You can't provide healthcare for MILLIONS without taxing the American people to death. Taxing some of them for care they won't even receive.

[QUOTE="DanBrim1"]

I just have a problem with a goverment telling me I have to buy Heathcare or be subject to fines.

mattbbpl

Also, the Federal Government has burned the constitution many times, after the Civil war, the creation of the Federal reserve bank, the great depression, and world war two.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

I believe it to be a right. The U.S. government also believes it to be a right as well. It's been that way ever since we voted in favor of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was then adopted by the UN, that among other things states;

"Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

And yet somehow we are the only developed country without universal health care.

danwallacefan

Support your position first. What makes you think you'll pay more than that? You've been making baseless claims all throughout the topic ("The UK is rationing healthcare") without any proof yet demanding proof left and right.

Except they already use it for all those other things.

If you pay taxes, then yes you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Don't believe me? Stop paying taxes and see how the government reacts.

Theokhoth

I've supported my position, you sir, haven't. Check my last post for a link on why goverment-run healthcare will harm us.

I'm not obligated to pay for somebody else's medical care.. I'm only obligated to pay for taxes for the defense and welfare of the United States. No where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights does it say I have to pay for somebody else.

[QUOTE="xTheExploited"]How do you know you won't be receiving it. I'm pretty sure people don't get into car accidents knowing prior to the accident that they would be involved. Something could happen at any time.airshocker

Because I have private insurance. I'm not going to be on the government plan. So why should I have to pay for it?

[QUOTE="SkylinePigeon"] We were supporting Saddam Hussein in the 80s, too. Funny how things change. What do you think of the US education system? Would you advocate it being changed from how it is now... that is, privatized? Should children have to pay to go to school?airshocker

Don't straw-man.

We're talking about health-care. I have no obligation to pay for anybody else except me and my family. Why should I pay a tax when it's going to infringe on my own pursuit of life, liberty and happiness?

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Just because that's how life "is" doesn't mean that's how life ought to be. And I'll say it again, the health care bill doesn't put the government in charge of the health care system.-Sun_Tzu-

Then you can donate all of your paychecks to people who need the money. That's your right. Don't expect me to do the same.

And yes it does.

The problem with this is that the people don't have access to what being put in thebill it's being done behide closed doors and with sweethart deals given to some states just to get there vote. I recall that it was promised to be on C-span but no thats no going to happen.

I think anouther problem is what is defined as a right to health care such as abortion should that be payed by people that are apposed to there money going to that?

It already is a right. Not financially, but a hospital can't refuse anyone.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Why are you just fine with taxes for the things I've mentioned, yet healthcare just terrifies you? You act like you'll pay a million dollars out of your weekly check for one or two people to get healthcare WHEN YOU WILL NOT; you will pay a couple of bucks and so will everybody else; in turn everyone will have access to healthcare and will be allowed to, you know, live if there's an acccident. Just like with roads.

Theokhoth

You have no idea what the cost will be. I'm being led to believe it's going to be much more than that. Prove me wrong.

I already pay 164 dollars a month in Federal taxes. They can use that for healthcare.

I'm not obligated to pay for anybody else. That's the fact. You haven't changed that with your arguments that make absolutely no sense.

Support your position first. What makes you think you'll pay more than that? You've been making baseless claims all throughout the topic ("The UK is rationing healthcare") without any proof yet demanding proof left and right.

Except they already use it for all those other things.

If you pay taxes, then yes you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Don't believe me? Stop paying taxes and see how the government reacts.

1: If everyone has health insurance, then the demand for health care will be higher, thus raising the cost of healthcare.

2: If there is an individual mandate, inevitably there will be certain minimum requirements (which, as a matter of fact, there are) for whatever type of health insurance you can purcahse. So for many Americans, they will be forced to buy a more expensive plan because their current health plan doesn't cover certain procedures that the Federal Government would like

Well, don't speak on behalf of all the founding fathers. Thomas Paine argued for social security and universal education - he considered both of these rights. And while he did not write about health care, it's not outrageous to suggest that in this day and age that he might be supportive of universal health care. I don't see any reason why he would object to it.

-Sun_Tzu-

He can support it all he wants. He can pay for it too.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]No it doesn't. Show me where in the bill it says that the entire health care system will become nationalized - where hospitals will be completely run by the federal government and all doctors become government employees. airshocker

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm2381.cfm

Show me where it doesn't. Show me, EXACTLY, why our system won't turn out like Great Britain's. Or Maine's.

You can't provide healthcare for MILLIONS without taxing the American people to death. Taxing some of them for care they won't even receive.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="DanBrim1"]

I just have a problem with a goverment telling me I have to buy Heathcare or be subject to fines.

Also, the Federal Government has burned the constitution many times, after the Civil war, the creation of the Federal reserve bank, the great depression, and world war two.

I consider basic emergency treatment a right.
I consider access to the latest and greatest treatments a privilege.

Healthcare can be a positive right, aye.

It's a right to have appropriate health-care. If I get into a car accident, that is not my fault, and I (nor the person who caused the accident) cannot afford to pay for the life-saving operations, then why should I die? It's for the benefit of society that people life long, happy and healthy lives

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Support your position first. What makes you think you'll pay more than that? You've been making baseless claims all throughout the topic ("The UK is rationing healthcare") without any proof yet demanding proof left and right.

Except they already use it for all those other things.

If you pay taxes, then yes you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Don't believe me? Stop paying taxes and see how the government reacts.

airshocker

I've supported my position, you sir, haven't. Check my last post for a link on why goverment-run healthcare will harm us.

I'm not obligated to pay for somebody else's medical care.. I'm only obligated to pay for taxes for the defense and welfare of the United States. No where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights does it say I have to pay for somebody else.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2007/May/Mirror--Mirror-on-the-Wall--An-International-Update-on-the-Comparative-Performance-of-American-Healt.aspx

We currently pay more money than any other country in the world for healthcare. Yet, according to this study (an actual study, not an article), we "consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries," most of those countries having socialized medicine.

Taxes. Once again, not in the Constitution or Bill of Rights (in fact, the entire IRS is not in the Constitution). Again, as long as you pay taxes, you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Again, stop paying taxes and see what happens.

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

I believe it to be a right. The U.S. government also believes it to be a right as well. It's been that way ever since we voted in favor of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was then adopted by the UN, that among other things states;

"Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

And yet somehow we are the only developed country without universal health care.

-Sun_Tzu-

I consider basic emergency treatment a right.
I consider access to the latest and greatest treatments a privilege.

Oleg_Huzwog

I'm not straw-manning. It's an analogous situation. If you have no obligation to pay for anyone but you and your family, do you think you should have to pay to send your children to school, and other families should have the same responsibility? If you don't believe in socializing anything than it stands to reason you don't believe in socialized education. Or fire prevention. Or protection (police & military). Lots more things in this country are socialized than most people realize, and for good reason.SkylinePigeon

I pay for all of that already. And yes, I do think I should have to pay for the services I use.

But there's a problem in your argument. I'm not paying so the Police can ONLY go to a certain house. I'm paying so they can also come to mine.

If I'm not going to be taking part in the goverment-run public option, why should I have to pay for it? And I will be forced to pay for it.

I consider basic emergency treatment a right.
I consider access to the latest and greatest treatments a privilege.

Oleg_Huzwog

[QUOTE="xTheExploited"][QUOTE="aransom"]

Healthcare is not a right. Just because you can't or won't provide something for yourself doesn't give you the right to steal it from someone else.

aransom

Again, as long as you pay taxes, you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Again, stop paying taxes and see what happens.

Theokhoth

No I'm not. I don't know where you're getting this from, but you need to rethink some things. This country wouldn't be free if I was obligated to pay for other people. It would be a dictatorship, or a socialist state.

I'm not paying so the Police can ONLY go to a certain house. I'm paying so they can also come to mine.airshocker

the thing is that if I need 1000 dollars for my operation but I only have 500...a government agent wont come to your place to tell "hey someone you dont know is dying, give us 500 dollars cuz he needs them"lightleggy

No, but we'll all be taxed for it.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Again, as long as you pay taxes, you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Again, stop paying taxes and see what happens.

airshocker

No I'm not. I don't know where you're getting this from, but you need to rethink some things. This country wouldn't be free if I was obligated to pay for other people. It would be a dictatorship, or a socialist state.

It's for the benefit of society that people life long, happy and healthy lives

daqua_99

[QUOTE="wigan_gamer"]Its a right :( its a shame others dont see it that way. Charging high amounts for medical help I think is awful.... This and being able to choose when you die should definately be a given. Thats why I give treatment for free outside of clinic , although yes I am still a student and I do it for people for practice I could easily charge these people seeing as people pay to see me and the other students in clinic.one_plum

There's no such thing as a "universal right" (taken for granted) in this world; in less fancy terms, it's just a consensus made by the majority or the powerful within or beyond borders.

And how is that different from socialised heath care? You would be paying so you, and anyone else, can have the care you, or they, need. harashawn

I don't want your socialized health-care. I like my private insurance just fine. Why should I have to pay extra to the government for someone else's treatment?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="danwallacefan"] The UDHR is a product of its time.

danwallacefan

Do they really have powers that are far beyond the enumerated powers of the constitution? The Federal government has some pretty broad enumerated powers, like the general welfare clause. Moreover, the only point I was trying to make was that there is a bit of irony concerning the official position of the U.S. government vis-a-vis health care and the reality of the U.S. health care system.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Again, as long as you pay taxes, you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Again, stop paying taxes and see what happens.

airshocker

No I'm not. I don't know where you're getting this from, but you need to rethink some things. This country wouldn't be free if I was obligated to pay for other people. It would be a dictatorship, or a socialist state.

Fun fact: there's socialism in the United States. It's not an anarchistic free market. As long as you are required to pay taxes for things other people use, you are obligated to pay for somebody else. That is a fact, and you need to realize that socialism is not necessarily a bad thing--and that every developed country in the world (and most undeveloped countries at that) have some form of socialism in their governments. An economy cannot survive on pure capitalism.

[QUOTE="harashawn"] And how is that different from socialised heath care? You would be paying so you, and anyone else, can have the care you, or they, need. airshocker

I don't want your socialized health-care. I like my private insurance just fine. Why should I have to pay extra to the government for someone else's treatment?

[QUOTE="airshocker"] I'm not paying so the Police can ONLY go to a certain house. I'm paying so they can also come to mine.harashawn

Perhaps you can look up the history of "no-knock" warrants and see the sort of insanity that goes on in our police departments.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Again, as long as you pay taxes, you are obligated to pay for somebody else. Again, stop paying taxes and see what happens.

airshocker

No I'm not. I don't know where you're getting this from, but you need to rethink some things. This country wouldn't be free if I was obligated to pay for other people. It would be a dictatorship, or a socialist state.