How Can A Christian Be Afraid of Death?

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Human-after-all

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#151 Human-after-all
Member since 2009 • 2972 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Krelian-co"]

a. i used the bible as an example because its the only i know well enough to talk about it, i did read parts of the other but my bet is they are the same in different words, be good bla bla fear god.

b. the whole bible is a social guide, saying that there are only two books in the bible which does this shows how you need to take every word literally. All the bible is about teaching and how to be good, and don't get me wrong is a good thing, if it weren't for the fear of this "god" and "hell" i bet the world would be a worst place, but i find it sad that people do good thing because of fear and not because of being a decent person who doesn't need an invisble eye watching.

c. you can say whatever you feel like about my post is how i see it and is my personal opinion, i can bet you can come with some "historical accuracies of why god does exist" but thats because you believe in him, and ofc since my point of view is highly atheist as all believers it would be discarded fast as you did

Krelian-co

I think I can safely say at this point that you know neither what the Bible contains nor what my beliefs are, nor do you seem particularly interested in learning either of those pieces of information, and as such I feel that there is nothing really left to talk about.

i can safely say that i know the bible, i assume you want to say i don't share yours or any religious point of view of it therefore im wrong and by learning you mean accepting it as "true", so its ok, is not like you are the first religious person to say you are right and others are wrong.

While his knowledge of theology is impressive I don't think he is "religious", at least that isn't the vibe I get. I could be completely wrong however. A Gabu is a mysterious creature indeed.
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GabuEx

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#152 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="RexHoles"]

Religion was designed to alleviate the fear of dying by giving each individual who has faith in the fairy-tale that is religion, something to look forward to after they die.

That's why too many people these days are always so quick to deal with someone they love dying by simply saying "They've gone to a better place".

RexHoles

Though many people have found solace in religion in the wake of a loved one dying, it is really not historically accurate to say that religion was designed with that purpose in mind.

No the purpose was control, I was wrong. What better way to get someone to live their life by a book than to promise them either an eternity in Heaven or an eternity in Hell. Fear = control.

No, though many people have used religion for the purpose of controlling people, that was not what provided the impetus for their creation, either. As I said to another, the first book in the Hebrew Bible to be written was probably Exodus, and looking at it through historical eyes, it is effectively an account of a primitive people struggling to understand things that had happened to it. The plagues of Egypt were probably fallout from a volcanic eruption, and the God described in the book was probably a volcano, the likes of which the people had never seen before.

None of this has anything to do with control.

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Lief_Ericson

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#153 Lief_Ericson
Member since 2005 • 7082 Posts

Because they don't want to wait around for their friends and family to join them

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deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1

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#154 deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1
Member since 2009 • 2436 Posts

[QUOTE="ColdP1zza"]

[QUOTE="RobboElRobbo"]

If you're a strong enough believer, then you wouldn't be

jeremiah06

This is exactly what I'm saying. Being afraid of death=Not a 100% believer, you do have doubts.

Jesus the most perfect Christan that will ever exists doubted for 1 second. How could I a mere human expect to be better than that? To believe that you could devote 100% of your entire life to anything is arrogant and foolish... The whole point of life is to live God didn't create us as his slaves...

Alright fine, how about devote lets say 90% of your life to him rather than the more like 1% or less most christians seem to devote. The percentage isn't really that important, your just dwelling on an example, look at the point I am trying to make.

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deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1

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#155 deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1
Member since 2009 • 2436 Posts

Well, there's this thing called Hell.scorch-62

Yes, but christians believe that if they follow their faith they will get into to heaven and many believe that if they are chrisitan they go to heaven by default.

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deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1

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#156 deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1
Member since 2009 • 2436 Posts

Doubt. Everyone doubts. You cannot have 100% faith in something.

Pixel-Pirate

Exactly the point I am making, people say they "100% believe in Jesus" but in actuality, they don't and nobody "100%" believes their religion, everyone has big doubts, even the pope does (see the picture of the pope-mobile somewhere in this thread).

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bachilders

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#157 bachilders
Member since 2005 • 1430 Posts

It is impossible to be sure of anything 100% Plus I have too much of a skeptical heart to be excited about death.

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deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1

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#158 deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1
Member since 2009 • 2436 Posts

[QUOTE="ColdP1zza"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

You asked, "Why not spend it devoting your life to god so that you will for sure have go to heaven?" The answer is as I said above: doing something because it will ensure you will go to heaven misses the whole point, and is not something that God would be very pleased with.

GabuEx

Okay, so if christians don't do everything the bible tells them to get into heaven, why do they worship god?

Jesus says on one occasion - and it confuses the heck out of me how often this is swept under the rug - that the Golden Rule basically is the whole of the Hebrew Bible (Matthew 7:12). At another point, Jesus says that whatever one does for a human in need, he does for God (Matthew 25:40). The idea that the ideal Christian life is just sitting around telling God how awesome he is in the hopes that he'll let you into heaven in return is about as far away from the example set by Jesus as one can get.

Okay so if your "helping" people or doing something for them as you say, the only motivation behind it is still to go to heaven, do you really think that people are christian for any reason other than wanting to go to heaven?

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deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1

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#159 deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1
Member since 2009 • 2436 Posts

I'm not afraid of death, im afraid of the people im leaving behind. Thats sad, really sad.Bloodseeker23

But according to the christian faith you'll be seeing them all soon anyways so whats so scary about being away from the people you know for a few years? Are you afraid of going on vacation as well?

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deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1

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#160 deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1
Member since 2009 • 2436 Posts

Fear of the unknown. We don't know what Heaven is like. Doubt in our religion. Leaving behind the world. Wondering if we're good enough to go to Heaven. Wondering if we're going to hell. I can go on and on. That's like asking how can an Atheist can be afraid of death. IppoTenma

Fear of the unknown? Don't christians believe in the bible? Then don't they knowthat heaven is paradise? And don't they believe that they will go to heaven as long as they are christian? And if they didn't live a very "christian lifestyle" then that just brings you to the second point that I made in my first point.

Honestly, I feel like people's arguements are just going in circles...

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deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1

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#161 deactivated-5b2b34c3a42a1
Member since 2009 • 2436 Posts

It is impossible to be sure of anything 100% Plus I have too much of a skeptical heart to be excited about death.

bachilders

Okay, but how do you explain people who say they have "full faith" or are "100% believers"? That's the point I have made.

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GTbiking4life

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#162 GTbiking4life
Member since 2010 • 490 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="ColdP1zza"]

Okay, so if christians don't do everything the bible tells them to get into heaven, why do they worship god?

ColdP1zza

Jesus says on one occasion - and it confuses the heck out of me how often this is swept under the rug - that the Golden Rule basically is the whole of the Hebrew Bible (Matthew 7:12). At another point, Jesus says that whatever one does for a human in need, he does for God (Matthew 25:40). The idea that the ideal Christian life is just sitting around telling God how awesome he is in the hopes that he'll let you into heaven in return is about as far away from the example set by Jesus as one can get.

Okay so if your "helping" people or doing something for them as you say, the only motivation behind it is still to go to heaven, do you really think that people are christian for any reason other than wanting to go to heaven?

Believe it or not...many people, including Christians, help others because it is the right thing to do. I am a Christian who loves helping others because it is just the right thing to do.

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mattbbpl

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#163 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23350 Posts

[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]

Doubt. Everyone doubts. You cannot have 100% faith in something.

ColdP1zza

Exactly the point I am making, people say they "100% believe in Jesus" but in actuality, they don't and nobody "100%" believes their religion, everyone has big doubts, even the pope does (see the picture of the pope-mobile somewhere in this thread).

I don't think that being religious entails knowing everything about life, death, and the hereafter. There are a lot of ongoing questions and soul searching in religion regarding a litany of topics.

In fact, a lot of the hot topics in Christianity/Judaism (which are the only religions I feel even remotely comfortable discussing) are little more than an afterthought in religious texts - things like creation, death, heaven, and hell - because they're not the focus of the faiths themselves.
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frostybanana

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#164 frostybanana
Member since 2010 • 5523 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="ColdP1zza"]

Okay, so if christians don't do everything the bible tells them to get into heaven, why do they worship god?

ColdP1zza

Jesus says on one occasion - and it confuses the heck out of me how often this is swept under the rug - that the Golden Rule basically is the whole of the Hebrew Bible (Matthew 7:12). At another point, Jesus says that whatever one does for a human in need, he does for God (Matthew 25:40). The idea that the ideal Christian life is just sitting around telling God how awesome he is in the hopes that he'll let you into heaven in return is about as far away from the example set by Jesus as one can get.

Okay so if your "helping" people or doing something for them as you say, the only motivation behind it is still to go to heaven, do you really think that people are christian for any reason other than wanting to go to heaven?

You're generalizing. There are people like that, sure. But there are people in this world, Christian or not, who want to help other people. Being Christian means you believe Jesus is the son of god and he was sent down as an example of what we should strive to be. It doesn't mean any more nor does it mean any less.
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angeldeb82

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#165 angeldeb82
Member since 2005 • 1739 Posts

[QUOTE="bachilders"]It is impossible to be sure of anything 100% Plus I have too much of a skeptical heart to be excited about death.ColdP1zza

Okay, but how do you explain people who say they have "full faith" or are "100% believers"? That's the point I have made.

Hey, Coldp1zza, just seeing your avatar about the Crossroads Ferryman from Tales of Monkey Island just gets people in the mood about what death is like, or what it's like to die. :)

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mattbbpl

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#166 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23350 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="ColdP1zza"]

Okay, so if christians don't do everything the bible tells them to get into heaven, why do they worship god?

ColdP1zza

Jesus says on one occasion - and it confuses the heck out of me how often this is swept under the rug - that the Golden Rule basically is the whole of the Hebrew Bible (Matthew 7:12). At another point, Jesus says that whatever one does for a human in need, he does for God (Matthew 25:40). The idea that the ideal Christian life is just sitting around telling God how awesome he is in the hopes that he'll let you into heaven in return is about as far away from the example set by Jesus as one can get.

Okay so if your "helping" people or doing something for them as you say, the only motivation behind it is still to go to heaven, do you really think that people are christian for any reason other than wanting to go to heaven?

I think that's where a lot of misunderstanding come into play. Christianity isn't merely a dusty tome laying out rules that must be followed to get into Heaven - it's focus (at least in my eyes), is to instruct and show how to properly live a good life.
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alexside1

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#167 alexside1
Member since 2006 • 4412 Posts

[QUOTE="RexHoles"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Though many people have found solace in religion in the wake of a loved one dying, it is really not historically accurate to say that religion was designed with that purpose in mind.

GabuEx

No the purpose was control, I was wrong. What better way to get someone to live their life by a book than to promise them either an eternity in Heaven or an eternity in Hell. Fear = control.

No, though many people have used religion for the purpose of controlling people, that was not what provided the impetus for their creation, either. As I said to another, the first book in the Hebrew Bible to be written was probably Exodus, and looking at it through historical eyes, it is effectively an account of a primitive people struggling to understand things that had happened to it. The plagues of Egypt were probably fallout from a volcanic eruption, and the God described in the book was probably a volcano, the likes of which the people had never seen before.

None of this has anything to do with control.

I don't remember any volcanoes that is around Egypt.
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Atheos-Arkhaios

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#168 Atheos-Arkhaios
Member since 2008 • 880 Posts

[QUOTE="Atheos-Arkhaios"]

You mistakenly separated Christians and Catholics in the title...as a Catholic, I AM a Christian.

ColdP1zza

That is actually very debatable.

It's debated by people who do not understand Catholicism.
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GabuEx

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#169 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="ColdP1zza"]

Okay, so if christians don't do everything the bible tells them to get into heaven, why do they worship god?

ColdP1zza

Jesus says on one occasion - and it confuses the heck out of me how often this is swept under the rug - that the Golden Rule basically is the whole of the Hebrew Bible (Matthew 7:12). At another point, Jesus says that whatever one does for a human in need, he does for God (Matthew 25:40). The idea that the ideal Christian life is just sitting around telling God how awesome he is in the hopes that he'll let you into heaven in return is about as far away from the example set by Jesus as one can get.

Okay so if your "helping" people or doing something for them as you say, the only motivation behind it is still to go to heaven, do you really think that people are christian for any reason other than wanting to go to heaven?

...No, no, it isn't. For the first five hundred years or so of Christianity - before men with power dug their claws into it, in other words - the majority belief in Christian schools of thought was that everyone was saved, without question. There was nothing that one could do to attain salvation, because everyone, through one path or through another, would reach God. Attaining heaven was not the point, nor a concern. Loving and helping other people is not a means to an end; it is itself the end. As Jean Valjean so eloquently puts it in the epilogue of Les Misérables, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

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GabuEx

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#170 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="RexHoles"]

No the purpose was control, I was wrong. What better way to get someone to live their life by a book than to promise them either an eternity in Heaven or an eternity in Hell. Fear = control.

alexside1

No, though many people have used religion for the purpose of controlling people, that was not what provided the impetus for their creation, either. As I said to another, the first book in the Hebrew Bible to be written was probably Exodus, and looking at it through historical eyes, it is effectively an account of a primitive people struggling to understand things that had happened to it. The plagues of Egypt were probably fallout from a volcanic eruption, and the God described in the book was probably a volcano, the likes of which the people had never seen before.

None of this has anything to do with control.

I don't remember any volcanoes that is around Egypt.

Santorini is a volcanic island whose volcano erupted around the time of the exodus.

The most compelling evidence in my view, though, is the description itself of God within Exodus. God is described as "by day... in a pillar of cloud ... and by night in a pillar of fire" (Exodus 13:21). Then when Moses is to meet with God, the mountain at the top of which he is to do this is described as "covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire", and is said to have "trembled violently" (Exodus 19:18 ), and there was "thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain" (Exodus 19:16). It is said that one "cannot see (God's) face, for no one may see (God) and live" (Exodus 33:20).

I mean it might just be me, but God sounds an awful lot like an active volcano there.

There is also the fact that all of the plagues of Egypt have been observed in one form or another following a volcanic eruption or its accompanying seismic activity.

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Rekunta

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#171 Rekunta
Member since 2002 • 8275 Posts

I have a question that's been gnawing on my for a while, and maybe some Christians/believers can lend me a hand in understanding...

We're all natural sinners, or that's what I continually hear over and over. You naughty, naughty children, shame on you! Basically, you follow and embrace a belief system that tells you off the bat that you are scum from birth. You're worthless. Worse than worthless...you have no validation except the one God imparts unto you IF you accept his terms under coercion, (masked and claimed as "mercy" and "love"), and in fact are so loathsome and contemptuous as to warrant an ETERNITY in the flames of hell burning in agony if you do not do so. No good deeds can change this, only by faith. My question is simply: why, would anybody, in their right mind embrace this notion? Is it some sort of masochistic compulsion? Low self-esteem? I'd like to hear reasons, not just, "well, it's part of my faith". I know it is. I'm looking for the logic behind it.

Now, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and often miss the obvious, so help me out here. I'm not familiar with the Bible aside from a few passages. It's really not the belief or how it came to be, it's why any person would find something like this an acceptable position to take in relation to themselves. I see no sense and no benefit in it, aside from setting up a pretense to "choose" to be forgiven by such a merciful God who put you in the predicament in the first place. And another question: if you had (or have) children, would you not tell them from the earliest age that they are terrible people? Why not? You find it perfectly acceptable to have your faith do the same to you.

What's the difference, and how do you come to justify such a perspective?

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GabuEx

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#172 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I have a question that's been gnawing on my for a while, and maybe some Christians/believers can lend me a hand in understanding...

We're all natural sinners, or that's what I continually hear over and over. You naughty, naughty children, shame on you! Basically, you follow and embrace a belief system that tells you off the bat that you are scum from birth. You're worthless. Worse than worthless...you have no validation except the one God imparts unto you IF you accept his terms under coercion, (masked and claimed as "mercy" and "love"), and in fact are so loathsome and contemptuous as to warrant an ETERNITY in the flames of hell burning in agony if you do not do so. No good deeds can change this, only by faith. My question is simply: why, would anybody, in their right mind embrace this notion? Is it some sort of masochistic compulsion? Low self-esteem? I'd like to hear reasons, not just, "well, it's part of my faith". I know it is. I'm looking for the logic behind it.

Now, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and often miss the obvious, so help me out here. I'm not familiar with the Bible aside from a few passages. It's really not the belief or how it came to be, it's why any person would find something like this an acceptable position to take in relation to themselves. I see no sense and no benefit in it, aside from setting up a pretense to "choose" to be forgiven by such a merciful God who put you in the predicament in the first place. And another question: if you had (or have) children, would you not tell them from the earliest age that they are terrible people? Why not? You find it perfectly acceptable to have your faith do the same to you.

What's the difference, and how do you come to justify such a perspective?

Rekunta

Everything in the world is bad when taken to excess or to its extreme, and I think what you describe is more or less the extreme version of it. I mean Jesus didn't constantly go around telling everyone that they were terrible, terrible people and the scum of the Earth. He did certainly sometimes put those with oversized heads in their place, though. It's not, in my view, so much a matter of humans being horrible, terrible people, but rather an acceptance of the fact that we are imperfect, and that we will always be imperfect no matter how much we improve, and that, as such, we should never be content with the way we are, but rather should always strive for self-improvement and humility in the presence of others. And, as a corollary to that, we must also be mindful of the fact that God loves everyone, no matter how imperfect they are - so who are we to judge them, and to point our finger at them, and to call them "bad", when we ourselves, given the right circumstances, are no better than they?

I think one thing that one should keep in mind is the sort of person for whom Jesus reserved his more barbed language - it was always, without fail, those who thought themselves the most pious and upstanding members of society. Jesus embraced those who were poor and miserable, while attacking those who parade themselves around town with their peacock tailfeathers held high. In this way I believe Jesus was setting the example for the rest in how we too should act.

I do recognize that there are people who do take it to the extreme you mention, though. I feel, at least from my experience, that this is more or less exactly the sort of thing that Jesus would attack mercilessly, as whenever people act like that, I can't help but notice that their barbs are always directed at everyone else... never themselves.

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Rekunta

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#173 Rekunta
Member since 2002 • 8275 Posts

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

I have a question that's been gnawing on my for a while, and maybe some Christians/believers can lend me a hand in understanding...

We're all natural sinners, or that's what I continually hear over and over. You naughty, naughty children, shame on you! Basically, you follow and embrace a belief system that tells you off the bat that you are scum from birth. You're worthless. Worse than worthless...you have no validation except the one God imparts unto you IF you accept his terms under coercion, (masked and claimed as "mercy" and "love"), and in fact are so loathsome and contemptuous as to warrant an ETERNITY in the flames of hell burning in agony if you do not do so. No good deeds can change this, only by faith. My question is simply: why, would anybody, in their right mind embrace this notion? Is it some sort of masochistic compulsion? Low self-esteem? I'd like to hear reasons, not just, "well, it's part of my faith". I know it is. I'm looking for the logic behind it.

Now, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and often miss the obvious, so help me out here. I'm not familiar with the Bible aside from a few passages. It's really not the belief or how it came to be, it's why any person would find something like this an acceptable position to take in relation to themselves. I see no sense and no benefit in it, aside from setting up a pretense to "choose" to be forgiven by such a merciful God who put you in the predicament in the first place. And another question: if you had (or have) children, would you not tell them from the earliest age that they are terrible people? Why not? You find it perfectly acceptable to have your faith do the same to you.

What's the difference, and how do you come to justify such a perspective?

GabuEx

Everything in the world is bad when taken to excess or to its extreme, and I think what you describe is more or less the extreme version of it. I mean Jesus didn't constantly go around telling everyone that they were terrible, terrible people and the scum of the Earth. He did certainly sometimes put those with oversized heads in their place, though. It's not, in my view, so much a matter of humans being horrible, terrible people, but rather an acceptance of the fact that we are imperfect, and that we will always be imperfect no matter how much we improve, and that, as such, we should never be content with the way we are, but rather should always strive for self-improvement and humility in the presence of others. And, as a corollary to that, we must also be mindful of the fact that God loves everyone, no matter how imperfect they are - so who are we to judge them, and to point our finger at them, and to call them "bad", when we ourselves, given the right circumstances, are no better than they?

I think one thing that one should keep in mind is the sort of person for whom Jesus reserved his more barbed language - it was always, without fail, those who thought themselves the most pious and upstanding members of society. Jesus embraced those who were poor and miserable, while attacking those who parade themselves around town with their peacock tailfeathers held high. In this way I believe Jesus was setting the example for the rest in how we too should act.

I do recognize that there are people who do take it to the extreme you mention, though. I feel, at least from my experience, that this is more or less exactly the sort of thing that Jesus would attack mercilessly, as whenever people act like that, I can't help but notice that their barbs are always directed at everyone else... never themselves.

Those are who I'm directing my question at, although I do appreciate your feedback as always, and I agree with you on most of your points. I would like to hear from a certain member of the CWU, I think you probably know who I'm referring to, unfortunately he doesn't seem to frequent these forums anymore.

Everything can be taken to extremes, but I don't see how this can be seen as such. If one's a Christian, sin and eternal damnation are fundamental and central tenets of the faith. You sin and warrant eternal torture unless you believe, period. And the way I see it, the extent and ferocity of the punishment caused by these imperfections is a direct implication of one's worth. Just like how a murderer is viewed and sentenced as opposed to someone who just steals a T.V. We are imperfect, yes, but that means endless torment. Would such punishment be handed out by someone that does not despise the offender to the highest degree possible?

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GabuEx

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#174 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

Those are who I'm directing my question at, although I do appreciate your feedback as always, and I agree with you on most of your points. I would like to hear from a certain member of the CWU, I think you probably know who I'm referring to, unfortunately he doesn't seem to frequent these forums anymore.

Everything can be taken to extremes, but I don't see how this can be seen as such. If one's a Christian, sin and eternal damnation are fundamental and central tenets of the faith. You sin and warrant eternal torture unless you believe, period. And the way I see it, the extent and ferocity of the punishment caused by these imperfections is a direct implication of one's worth. Just like how a murderer is viewed and sentenced as opposed to someone who just steals a T.V. We are imperfect, yes, but that means endless torment. Would such punishment be handed out by someone that does not despise the offender to the highest degree possible?

Rekunta

Oh, well if you're specifically asking the question towards those who do hold that belief, then yeah, I couldn't answer it. Maybe the same reason people perform self-flagellation. :P

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GTbiking4life

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#175 GTbiking4life
Member since 2010 • 490 Posts

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

I have a question that's been gnawing on my for a while, and maybe some Christians/believers can lend me a hand in understanding...

We're all natural sinners, or that's what I continually hear over and over. You naughty, naughty children, shame on you! Basically, you follow and embrace a belief system that tells you off the bat that you are scum from birth. You're worthless. Worse than worthless...you have no validation except the one God imparts unto you IF you accept his terms under coercion, (masked and claimed as "mercy" and "love"), and in fact are so loathsome and contemptuous as to warrant an ETERNITY in the flames of hell burning in agony if you do not do so. No good deeds can change this, only by faith. My question is simply: why, would anybody, in their right mind embrace this notion? Is it some sort of masochistic compulsion? Low self-esteem? I'd like to hear reasons, not just, "well, it's part of my faith". I know it is. I'm looking for the logic behind it.

Now, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and often miss the obvious, so help me out here. I'm not familiar with the Bible aside from a few passages. It's really not the belief or how it came to be, it's why any person would find something like this an acceptable position to take in relation to themselves. I see no sense and no benefit in it, aside from setting up a pretense to "choose" to be forgiven by such a merciful God who put you in the predicament in the first place. And another question: if you had (or have) children, would you not tell them from the earliest age that they are terrible people? Why not? You find it perfectly acceptable to have your faith do the same to you.

What's the difference, and how do you come to justify such a perspective?

GabuEx

Everything in the world is bad when taken to excess or to its extreme, and I think what you describe is more or less the extreme version of it. I mean Jesus didn't constantly go around telling everyone that they were terrible, terrible people and the scum of the Earth. He did certainly sometimes put those with oversized heads in their place, though. It's not, in my view, so much a matter of humans being horrible, terrible people, but rather an acceptance of the fact that we are imperfect, and that we will always be imperfect no matter how much we improve, and that, as such, we should never be content with the way we are, but rather should always strive for self-improvement and humility in the presence of others. And, as a corollary to that, we must also be mindful of the fact that God loves everyone, no matter how imperfect they are - so who are we to judge them, and to point our finger at them, and to call them "bad", when we ourselves, given the right circumstances, are no better than they?

I think one thing that one should keep in mind is the sort of person for whom Jesus reserved his more barbed language - it was always, without fail, those who thought themselves the most pious and upstanding members of society. Jesus embraced those who were poor and miserable, while attacking those who parade themselves around town with their peacock tailfeathers held high. In this way I believe Jesus was setting the example for the rest in how we too should act.

I do recognize that there are people who do take it to the extreme you mention, though. I feel, at least from my experience, that this is more or less exactly the sort of thing that Jesus would attack mercilessly, as whenever people act like that, I can't help but notice that their barbs are always directed at everyone else... never themselves.

I agree with Gabu here.

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foxhound_fox

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#176 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
There might be a tiny seed of doubt in that there may actually be no "Heaven" after death. Ironically, there is a tenet against suicide in Christianity, making so people wouldn't be tempted to just kill themselves to get to Heaven quicker. Though, considering how Jesus at one point said that the "Kingdom of Heaven" is both here on Earth, and in the human heart, I'd be more willing to say that a lot of Christians may think that "Heaven" is where you try to be as good a person as you can be here and now, not waiting to repent on your death bed just to gain access to Heaven, no matter how sinful a life you lead.