This topic is locked from further discussion.
I was thinking about the sins people do and the Ten Commandments. And what doesn't make sense is some of the Commandments.
One of them is not lusting over a woman. Now how is that fair? If you have sex with a person your not lusting them? And also lying can also send you to hell. Now, I am sure that everybody has lied once. Does that mean everyone will go to hell, or at least be sent to Purgatory? What do you think?
Hell, we're all hellbound.
The correct commandment is "Lusting after they neighbors wife".
cd_rom
Does this mean I can lust aftera stranger's wife?
I was thinking about the sins people do and the Ten Commandments. And what doesn't make sense is some of the Commandments.
One of them is not lusting over a woman. Now how is that fair? If you have sex with a person your not lusting them? And also lying can also send you to hell. Now, I am sure that everybody has lied once. Does that mean everyone will go to hell, or at least be sent to Purgatory? What do you think?
Rutzfuz
Lust is considered fornication with the woman in your heart. Think about it, that woman you just fantasized over is someone's future wife.
And yes, a lie is a sin just like every other sin. And no, that does not mean that everyone will be sent to Hell, because believe it or not, there's a way to stand right before God.
So if your God likes to test people, how can one be certain that he didn't send Jesus to test people?
Because most of the New Testament talks about Jesus and what he did for us. And in the Bible, when God tested people, it outright said he was testing them.So if your God likes to test people, how can one be certain that he didn't send Jesus to test people?
jerk-o-tron2000
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
So if your God likes to test people, how can one be certain that he didn't send Jesus to test people?
J-man45
Because most of the New Testament talks about Jesus and what he did for us. And in the Bible, when God tested people, it outright said he was testing them.
So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
So if your God likes to test people, how can one be certain that he didn't send Jesus to test people?
Because most of the New Testament talks about Jesus and what he did for us. And in the Bible, when God tested people, it outright said he was testing them.
So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.Jesus always extends his arm for forgiveness, always merciful Jesus is. He helps forgive sins so that we may come clean before the Lord.So if your God likes to test people, how can one be certain that he didn't send Jesus to test people?
jerk-o-tron2000
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
Because most of the New Testament talks about Jesus and what he did for us. And in the Bible, when God tested people, it outright said he was testing them.
J-man45
So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
jerk-o-tron2000
Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
Judaism is based on the belief of the one god...actually the same God as the Christians believe, but do not believe Jesus to be the Son of God, and that either A) was an ordinary prophet and not a song of God or B) never existed in the first placeIt's controversial within the Judaism religion.
The Ten Commandments were put in place for jewish laws, but christians believe that they are not bound by those laws because of the new covenant that Jesus made. That doesn't mean that one can be a christian while sinning as much as they want. Being a christian is not a license to sin; the apostle Paul talks about this in Romans chapter six. The New Testament says that forgiveness for things like lying is available once someone genuinely repents, but catholics and protestants don't agree with the notion that puragtory awaits a person who died before repenting of a sin. Purgatory is a catholic tradition, so protestants obviously don't believe in it.
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
jerk-o-tron2000
Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.
J-man45
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
Will your God terminate all the non-believers regardless on how they led their lives?
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.
J-man45
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
What about people who have never heard of Jesus, who have never heard of Christianity or any of the other major religions? If they are idolaters, are they at fault? Even though God has not graced them with messengers and prophets? If they do not follow the ten commandments out of ignorance, are they exempt? Is there purgatory, or, do they just get sent to hell like other non-believers?[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
jerk-o-tron2000
Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
Will your God terminate all the non-believers regardless on how they led their lives?
The two biggest sins: The shedding of innocent blood and denying the Holy Ghost. If ye won't believe in God, then how can ye repent of thy sins? Everyone has sinned, for if they do not repent of their sins and cry out to God, ye shall not come clean before the Lord on the last day, and thus be judged unclean. Behold, no unclean thing shall enter the kingdom of heaven.[QUOTE="J-man45"][QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
Lockedge
Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
What about people who have never heard of Jesus, who have never heard of Christianity or any of the other major religions? If they are idolaters, are they at fault? Even though God has not graced them with messengers and prophets? If they do not follow the ten commandments out of ignorance, are they exempt? Is there purgatory, or, do they just get sent to hell like other non-believers? It says in the scriptures that ALL will have a chance to repent and learn of the gospel, Jesus, etc. in the time in between physical death and resurrection, the unity of body and spirit and and all can repent of thy sins through yourself and guidance of Jesus (if ye will extend yourself to his arm) before the last day of judgment. ALL will get that chance, a gracious time before the last day.[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
wiifan001
Will your God terminate all the non-believers regardless on how they led their lives?
The two biggest sins: The shedding of innocent blood and denying the Holy Ghost. If ye won't believe in God, then how can ye repent of thy sins? Everyone has sinned, for if they do not repent of their sins and cry out to God, ye shall not come clean before the Lord on the last day, and thus be judged unclean. Behold, no unclean thing shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
So your God will send me to hell if I don't believe in him......I don't think I like your God, and I'm sure as hell not going toworship him....I'd rather go to hell with the rest of the "Uncivilized" world.
[QUOTE="Lockedge"][QUOTE="J-man45"]What about people who have never heard of Jesus, who have never heard of Christianity or any of the other major religions? If they are idolaters, are they at fault? Even though God has not graced them with messengers and prophets? If they do not follow the ten commandments out of ignorance, are they exempt? Is there purgatory, or, do they just get sent to hell like other non-believers? It says in the scriptures that ALL will have a chance to repent and learn of the gospel, Jesus, etc. in the time in between physical death and resurrection, the unity of body and spirit and and all can repent of thy sins through yourself and guidance of Jesus (if ye will extend yourself to his arm) before the last day of judgment. ALL will get that chance, a gracious time before the last day. Hrm. Interesting. Is this Catholicism, or other sects of Christianity?Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
wiifan001
I've never understood the concept of hell. I don't get how someone who lives a just, good life without God, can be sentenced to eternal punishment for not putting God first in life. I just don't get it. If a non-religious person did some wrong in his or her life and absolutely regretted those wrongs, apologized wholeheartedly and worked to right those wrongs...why does that person get Hell? I don't get it. Some compare it to judges, but no judge would give a life sentence for jaywalking or driving with outdated insurance papers. God, as many claim him to be, sees things too polarized, and that's a flaw. There are almost always exceptions.Lockedge
That's the issue right there though, because I believe that you can't live a just, good life without God. Sin has already contaminated us, sin is what has already condemned us. There is no getting to God by works, because that is impossible. Man, in his imperfect state, will fail repeatedly to get to a perfect God. But that's why God made the way. God knows that works are useless to becoming righteous, so he sent his son to take the penalty of sin so that he is the one and only perfect way to Heaven. God has given us an infinite amount of love and grace to us, so that we can get to him and seen as righteous by faith in his grace alone. That's the beauty of it.
It says in the scriptures that ALL will have a chance to repent and learn of the gospel, Jesus, etc. in the time in between physical death and resurrection, the unity of body and spirit and and all can repent of thy sins through yourself and guidance of Jesus (if ye will extend yourself to his arm) before the last day of judgment. ALL will get that chance, a gracious time before the last day. Hrm. Interesting. Is this Catholicism, or other sects of Christianity? I am a Christian (not a Catholic specifically), and is directly in the scriptures.[QUOTE="wiifan001"][QUOTE="Lockedge"] What about people who have never heard of Jesus, who have never heard of Christianity or any of the other major religions? If they are idolaters, are they at fault? Even though God has not graced them with messengers and prophets? If they do not follow the ten commandments out of ignorance, are they exempt? Is there purgatory, or, do they just get sent to hell like other non-believers? Lockedge
[QUOTE="Lockedge"]I've never understood the concept of hell. I don't get how someone who lives a just, good life without God, can be sentenced to eternal punishment for not putting God first in life. I just don't get it. If a non-religious person did some wrong in his or her life and absolutely regretted those wrongs, apologized wholeheartedly and worked to right those wrongs...why does that person get Hell? I don't get it. Some compare it to judges, but no judge would give a life sentence for jaywalking or driving with outdated insurance papers. God, as many claim him to be, sees things too polarized, and that's a flaw. There are almost always exceptions.J-man45
That's the issue right there though, because I believe that you can't live a just, good life without God. Sin has already contaminated us, sin is what has already condemned us. There is no getting to God by works, because that is impossible. Man, in his imperfect state, will fail repeatedly to get to a perfect God. But that's why God made the way. God knows that works are useless to becoming righteous, so he sent his son to take the penalty of sin so that he is the one and only perfect way to Heaven. God has given us an infinite amount of love and grace to us, so that we can get to him and seen as righteous by faith in his grace alone. That's the beauty of it.
I have trouble with faith. I understand he needed physical entities to spread the word and show proof of his existence early on, because it was a fledgling religion with a small tribe. But to rely on faith alone these days? God gives free will, he doesn't intersect with life, because everyone has challenges and will be rewarded in the afterlife. That means "miracles" and the praying that coincides with it...they're just words without substance. Just a way of social/emotional comforting. I'm fine with knowing God doesn't affect people's decisions or lives in a direct way...to a point. Personally, I'm aware of Christianity, Islam, etc. I've read them all. I still don't believe, and that's on me. Fully. I accept that. I don't accept that a flawless god would send a person who was ignorant to the scripture and the gospel to Hell. I can't accept that someone could be sent to hell without having the chance to know God. That's why I cannot take evangelism seriously, because it is absolutely a flaw in the design. There's very little ways one could argue the justification. The best I've ever heard was that the lord lives in everyone's heart and guides them indirectly and innately, and in lives affected by gods other than the "one, true god", and void of that one god, the person's life would indeed be assessed in a more complex way at the heavenly gates. I can, to a point, accept that we're all sinners from the get go. It irks me a bit because by that logic, even the unborn are sinful, and miscarriages = that soul's gone to hell. No gospel knowledge or repentance there. They're not innocent of sin if sin is innate. If they are innocent, then sin cannot be innate, and that would be a flaw in the design. But most of all, I can't accept the translations. There's so much evidence that parts of the new testament have been altered, edited, re-written, and thrown out entirely, that I cannot take it as the honest face of God's message. I just can't. All religion is inherently flawed due to this issue, IMHO.And that is why I don't like releigon very much. You do such a mild thing and you are considered evil.the_phenom_Sinning makes you unclean, not evil. But all are given the chance to repent of thy sins and come clean, both now and all throughout the time before the last day of final judgment.
I refuse to listen to a book that describes even masturbation as evil. It's just sillyhillelslovak
Are we not as humans to carry on the race by having sex? Now if we can't masturbate to control ourselves does that make raping good? The Bible does not address masturbation in any way that would suggest that it is condemned[QUOTE="hillelslovak"]I refuse to listen to a book that describes even masturbation as evil. It's just sillyRutzfuz
[QUOTE="Lockedge"]
I've never understood the concept of hell. I don't get how someone who lives a just, good life without God, can be sentenced to eternal punishment for not putting God first in life. I just don't get it. If a non-religious person did some wrong in his or her life and absolutely regretted those wrongs, apologized wholeheartedly and worked to right those wrongs...why does that person get Hell? I don't get it. Some compare it to judges, but no judge would give a life sentence for jaywalking or driving with outdated insurance papers. God, as many claim him to be, sees things too polarized, and that's a flaw. There are almost always exceptions.
J-man45
That's the issue right there though, because I believe that you can't live a just, good life without God. Sin has already contaminated us, sin is what has already condemned us. There is no getting to God by works, because that is impossible. Man, in his imperfect state, will fail repeatedly to get to a perfect God. But that's why God made the way. God knows that works are useless to becoming righteous, so he sent his son to take the penalty of sin so that he is the one and only perfect way to Heaven. God has given us an infinite amount of love and grace to us, so that we can get to him and seen as righteous by faith in his grace alone. That's the beauty of it.
So we can't be righteous without your God, eh? That sounds kind of.....off.
I have trouble with faith. I understand he needed physical entities to spread the word and show proof of his existence early on, because it was a fledgling religion with a small tribe. But to rely on faith alone these days? God gives free will, he doesn't intersect with life, because everyone has challenges and will be rewarded in the afterlife. That means "miracles" and the praying that coincides with it...they're just words without substance. Just a way of social/emotional comforting. I'm fine with knowing God doesn't affect people's decisions or lives in a direct way...to a point. Personally, I'm aware of Christianity, Islam, etc. I've read them all. I still don't believe, and that's on me. Fully. I accept that. I don't accept that a flawless god would send a person who was ignorant to the scripture and the gospel to Hell. I can't accept that someone could be sent to hell without having the chance to know God. That's why I cannot take evangelism seriously, because it is absolutely a flaw in the design. There's very little ways one could argue the justification. The best I've ever heard was that the lord lives in everyone's heart and guides them indirectly and innately, and in lives affected by gods other than the "one, true god", and void of that one god, the person's life would indeed be assessed in a more complex way at the heavenly gates. I can, to a point, accept that we're all sinners from the get go. It irks me a bit because by that logic, even the unborn are sinful, and miscarriages = that soul's gone to hell. No gospel knowledge or repentance there. They're not innocent of sin if sin is innate. If they are innocent, then sin cannot be innate, and that would be a flaw in the design. But most of all, I can't accept the translations. There's so much evidence that parts of the new testament have been altered, edited, re-written, and thrown out entirely, that I cannot take it as the honest face of God's message. I just can't. All religion is inherently flawed due to this issue, IMHO.Lockedge
Would love to address more in detail via PM, but for now, the thing you say about someone could be sent to Hell without having the chance to know God...the Bible does address this very issue, believe it or not:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(Romans 1:18-22)
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="Lockedge"]
I've never understood the concept of hell. I don't get how someone who lives a just, good life without God, can be sentenced to eternal punishment for not putting God first in life. I just don't get it. If a non-religious person did some wrong in his or her life and absolutely regretted those wrongs, apologized wholeheartedly and worked to right those wrongs...why does that person get Hell? I don't get it. Some compare it to judges, but no judge would give a life sentence for jaywalking or driving with outdated insurance papers. God, as many claim him to be, sees things too polarized, and that's a flaw. There are almost always exceptions.
jerk-o-tron2000
That's the issue right there though, because I believe that you can't live a just, good life without God. Sin has already contaminated us, sin is what has already condemned us. There is no getting to God by works, because that is impossible. Man, in his imperfect state, will fail repeatedly to get to a perfect God. But that's why God made the way. God knows that works are useless to becoming righteous, so he sent his son to take the penalty of sin so that he is the one and only perfect way to Heaven. God has given us an infinite amount of love and grace to us, so that we can get to him and seen as righteous by faith in his grace alone. That's the beauty of it.
So we can't be righteous without your God, eh? That sounds kind of.....off.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) which is why there is no one righteous (Romans 3:10).
[QUOTE="Lockedge"][QUOTE="wiifan001"] Jesus always extends his arm for forgiveness, always merciful Jesus is. He helps forgive sins so that we may come clean before the Lord.wiifan001Even after life has ended? While in the clutches of hell? Does his arm reach that far? It is the people who did not extend themselves to Jesus, and never would have. If they haven't done so by the time of the last day, they would never have, even in the clutches of hell, their pride would still be too uplifted to reach out to God / Jesus even then. The ultimate downfall of pride, cast by the people, who brought it upon themselves. I've always heard this issue of pride brought up. Personally, I'm agnostic. I don't believe because I cannot know that there is a god. If, by some strange luck, I was graced with some miraculous event, I'd flip on a dime. I don't understand why people 2000 years ago got the son of god, or even some proof that God is real through real-life events, while today it's off faith alone that people must believe. When 90% of pastors/reverends/etc. skew scripture and lie to and/or mislead their followers, leading their flock astray, how can I possibly trust the word of these religious leaders? How can I possibly trust the written word of God after humanity has defiled with through poor translation, revisionist methods, cutting out fragments of scripture that weren't applicable, etc.? Why must I have faith in both God, and in the forever sinful humanity, in order to be granted access to God's kingdom?
There are so many questions that the scripture just can't answer because it's been defiled, and religious leaders can't answer because they just don't know, or they don't feel like answering. If those questions were answered, I'd switch over. But I'm an insignificant human and don't deserve to question God as if I'm worthy of answers directly from Him, so I've been told. If that's the pride element you speak of, then I don't know what to say. I find religion to be twisted. Faith would be fine by me if religion wasn't involved.
It is the people who did not extend themselves to Jesus, and never would have. If they haven't done so by the time of the last day, they would never have, even in the clutches of hell, their pride would still be too uplifted to reach out to God / Jesus even then. The ultimate downfall of pride, cast by the people, who brought it upon themselves. I've always heard this issue of pride brought up. Personally, I'm agnostic. I don't believe because I cannot know that there is a god. If, by some strange luck, I was graced with some miraculous event, I'd flip on a dime. I don't understand why people 2000 years ago got the son of god, or even some proof that God is real through real-life events, while today it's off faith alone that people must believe. When 90% of pastors/reverends/etc. skew scripture and lie to and/or mislead their followers, leading their flock astray, how can I possibly trust the word of these religious leaders? How can I possibly trust the written word of God after humanity has defiled with through poor translation, revisionist methods, cutting out fragments of scripture that weren't applicable, etc.? Why must I have faith in both God, and in the forever sinful humanity, in order to be granted access to God's kingdom?[QUOTE="wiifan001"][QUOTE="Lockedge"] Even after life has ended? While in the clutches of hell? Does his arm reach that far?Lockedge
There are so many questions that the scripture just can't answer because it's been defiled, and religious leaders can't answer because they just don't know, or they don't feel like answering. If those questions were answered, I'd switch over. But I'm an insignificant human and don't deserve to question God as if I'm worthy of answers directly from Him, so I've been told. If that's the pride element you speak of, then I don't know what to say. I find religion to be twisted. Faith would be fine by me if religion wasn't involved.
Actually, salvation was always by faith. "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Romans 4:3) Just because early believers did see Jesus, there salvation was always by their faith, because after Jesus was gone, they still had faith. It's always been by faith.
And you seem to be claiming a lot about the Bible being totally wrong because of errors when translating, revising, etc. But I can't accept your claims, because many verses and sometimes whole books have been discovered many a time. There's been more than enough. And I believe God has guided through the early translations, revisions, etc, to preserve his word adaquately for his followers.
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
Because most of the New Testament talks about Jesus and what he did for us. And in the Bible, when God tested people, it outright said he was testing them.
So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless. Weird, because the Bible itself says he's a jealous vengeful God. Wrath and envy, of course, being two of the seven deadly sins.I've always heard this issue of pride brought up. Personally, I'm agnostic. I don't believe because I cannot know that there is a god. If, by some strange luck, I was graced with some miraculous event, I'd flip on a dime. I don't understand why people 2000 years ago got the son of god, or even some proof that God is real through real-life events, while today it's off faith alone that people must believe. When 90% of pastors/reverends/etc. skew scripture and lie to and/or mislead their followers, leading their flock astray, how can I possibly trust the word of these religious leaders? How can I possibly trust the written word of God after humanity has defiled with through poor translation, revisionist methods, cutting out fragments of scripture that weren't applicable, etc.? Why must I have faith in both God, and in the forever sinful humanity, in order to be granted access to God's kingdom?
Lockedge
whoa whoa whoa slow down. Slow down the questions. I'll address this as best I can.
We don't have just faith, we have churches and temples and prophets and seers and revelators and priests, etc. who have the power and authority. We also have the scriptures. It is not just on faith alone, but also the very character of ourselves that factor. We have all these things, and not only do we have them, but we can build on them.
How can you trust the words of the religious leaders? Turn to James Chapter 1 verse 5: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him" Hopefully that helps clear that up to some extent
Now, about the translations, I will present this: The book of John chapter 10 verse 35, and this is Jesus Christ who says this: "Scripture cannot be broken." . If the scripture is broken, then Jesus's prophesy is hereby false, and Jesus is not the son of God. Don't confuse mistranslation with broken scripture, for they are 2 separate things.
Last question to answer: no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven, but if ye will repent of thy sins with an open mind and open heart, and confess all your sins, ye shall be clean before the Lord on the last day of judgment
We, us people, do not everything, but we know enough. Take the resources and scripture that we DO have, rather than what we don't have, and apply once you've gained the strength and testimony of it. Where do you start? Try applying James 1:5 (see above)
[QUOTE="Lockedge"]I have trouble with faith. I understand he needed physical entities to spread the word and show proof of his existence early on, because it was a fledgling religion with a small tribe. But to rely on faith alone these days? God gives free will, he doesn't intersect with life, because everyone has challenges and will be rewarded in the afterlife. That means "miracles" and the praying that coincides with it...they're just words without substance. Just a way of social/emotional comforting. I'm fine with knowing God doesn't affect people's decisions or lives in a direct way...to a point. Personally, I'm aware of Christianity, Islam, etc. I've read them all. I still don't believe, and that's on me. Fully. I accept that. I don't accept that a flawless god would send a person who was ignorant to the scripture and the gospel to Hell. I can't accept that someone could be sent to hell without having the chance to know God. That's why I cannot take evangelism seriously, because it is absolutely a flaw in the design. There's very little ways one could argue the justification. The best I've ever heard was that the lord lives in everyone's heart and guides them indirectly and innately, and in lives affected by gods other than the "one, true god", and void of that one god, the person's life would indeed be assessed in a more complex way at the heavenly gates. I can, to a point, accept that we're all sinners from the get go. It irks me a bit because by that logic, even the unborn are sinful, and miscarriages = that soul's gone to hell. No gospel knowledge or repentance there. They're not innocent of sin if sin is innate. If they are innocent, then sin cannot be innate, and that would be a flaw in the design. But most of all, I can't accept the translations. There's so much evidence that parts of the new testament have been altered, edited, re-written, and thrown out entirely, that I cannot take it as the honest face of God's message. I just can't. All religion is inherently flawed due to this issue, IMHO.J-man45
Would love to address more in detail via PM, but for now, the thing you say about someone could be sent to Hell without having the chance to know God...the Bible does address this very issue, believe it or not:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(Romans 1:18-22)
I've read that passage before, and while it touches on the issue, it's very vague and falls in line with the "God lives in you, so you have an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong by God's moral code". What if they knew God, but used a different name, and different rituals to thank him, and other cultural constructs to follow what they felt was their understanding of his code? What happened when Jesus passed the new covenant? Were existing tribes of people who held no knowledge of Jesus suddenly filled with knowledge of what had changed? And the frustrating part is that all I have is a book to draw what answers I can from. It's not even all that big, a lot of things are written without full context(Paul's parts, for instance), and it's all we're ever going to get. All my life, I've seen what damage "black and white"/"polarized" thinking can do in this world, and I've witnessed very little good. There's always a little gray in the spectrum, at least a little on each end. When I read religious texts, I see black and white thinking throughout, and it troubles me. Humanity is, under religious context, already full of sin. For God to bestow a method of teaching and thinking that's flawed onto a sinful group, to teach and spread awareness of His work...it's baffling and possibly self-defeating. Most religious people I know have never read the bible. They listen to their preachers and log mental notes on what is said. If these are the people who are spreading the word, how is one to honestly see such a religion in a good light? If these people are contorting the scripture to bring it in line with their personal beliefs, how can one truly find honest faith in such a deity through tainted scripture? Sorry for the rant. I'd like to believe, but I've seen so much damage in polarized thinking, in what it does to religion and faith, in what it does to people. I've seen the scriptures bent and twisted to the whims of humanity, not under the watchful eyes of a deity. For me to have to follow such a twisted path to be accepted is beyond me. All I see down that path is ruin and confusion, and if that's perceived as pride if judgment day happens, then I suppose that will be what it will be, but I can only put my faith in humanity when it comes to science/knowledge, not faith. So I remain agnostic. If I were to be graced by a holy presence in some form offering such proof or answers to my questions of faith, then that would fiz everything, but then it wouldn't be faith in religion. It would be knowledge. I don't believe I'm entitled to such knowledge outside of scripture.... :([QUOTE="J-man45"][QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless. Weird, because the Bible itself says he's a jealous vengeful God. Wrath and envy, of course, being two of the seven deadly sins.So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
JinjonatorX
God's wrath and God's jealousy are vastly different from the wrath and envy considered sins.
God's wrath is against sinners and sin, so it is justified. Wrath in the sinful man sense can be described as "inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger."
God's jealousy is not envy, is rightful longing for a return of what is his. God's deserves mans devotion, so when man is devoted to something other than God, He becomes jealous for what is rightfully his. Envy is want for something that is not rightfully yours.
[QUOTE="J-man45"][QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless. Weird, because the Bible itself says he's a jealous vengeful God. Wrath and envy, of course, being two of the seven deadly sins. That's a Catholic view which summarizes the outcome of sin by the people, and are BASED off why people sin. However, they are not directly addressed as sins in the scriptures. Sin is based off it, but not sins themselves. Wherefore, God has wrath and jealousy, yet does not carry it out into a sinful manner.So your God wouldn't lie to people just to test them?
JinjonatorX
For example, lust leads to wicked thoughts of, as explained in Matthew 5: 28, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her committeth adultery with her already in his heart"
You have toconfess for your sins so that you won't go to hell
Weird, because the Bible itself says he's a jealous vengeful God. Wrath and envy, of course, being two of the seven deadly sins. That's a Catholic view which summarizes the outcome of sin by the people, and are BASED off why people sin. However, they are not directly addressed as sins in the scriptures. Sin is based off it, but not sins themselves. Wherefore, God has wrath and jealousy, yet does not carry it out into a sinful manner.[QUOTE="JinjonatorX"][QUOTE="J-man45"] Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.wiifan001
Well, they are addressed, in a sense. I'm not Catholic, so I have trouble with that also, but whichever way you look at it, God's wrath and jealousy is different, which is what you said also.
[QUOTE="J-man45"][QUOTE="Lockedge"]I have trouble with faith. I understand he needed physical entities to spread the word and show proof of his existence early on, because it was a fledgling religion with a small tribe. But to rely on faith alone these days? God gives free will, he doesn't intersect with life, because everyone has challenges and will be rewarded in the afterlife. That means "miracles" and the praying that coincides with it...they're just words without substance. Just a way of social/emotional comforting. I'm fine with knowing God doesn't affect people's decisions or lives in a direct way...to a point. Personally, I'm aware of Christianity, Islam, etc. I've read them all. I still don't believe, and that's on me. Fully. I accept that. I don't accept that a flawless god would send a person who was ignorant to the scripture and the gospel to Hell. I can't accept that someone could be sent to hell without having the chance to know God. That's why I cannot take evangelism seriously, because it is absolutely a flaw in the design. There's very little ways one could argue the justification. The best I've ever heard was that the lord lives in everyone's heart and guides them indirectly and innately, and in lives affected by gods other than the "one, true god", and void of that one god, the person's life would indeed be assessed in a more complex way at the heavenly gates. I can, to a point, accept that we're all sinners from the get go. It irks me a bit because by that logic, even the unborn are sinful, and miscarriages = that soul's gone to hell. No gospel knowledge or repentance there. They're not innocent of sin if sin is innate. If they are innocent, then sin cannot be innate, and that would be a flaw in the design. But most of all, I can't accept the translations. There's so much evidence that parts of the new testament have been altered, edited, re-written, and thrown out entirely, that I cannot take it as the honest face of God's message. I just can't. All religion is inherently flawed due to this issue, IMHO.Lockedge
Would love to address more in detail via PM, but for now, the thing you say about someone could be sent to Hell without having the chance to know God...the Bible does address this very issue, believe it or not:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(Romans 1:18-22)
I've read that passage before, and while it touches on the issue, it's very vague and falls in line with the "God lives in you, so you have an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong by God's moral code". What if they knew God, but used a different name, and different rituals to thank him, and other cultural constructs to follow what they felt was their understanding of his code? What happened when Jesus passed the new covenant? Were existing tribes of people who held no knowledge of Jesus suddenly filled with knowledge of what had changed? And the frustrating part is that all I have is a book to draw what answers I can from. It's not even all that big, a lot of things are written without full context(Paul's parts, for instance), and it's all we're ever going to get. All my life, I've seen what damage "black and white"/"polarized" thinking can do in this world, and I've witnessed very little good. There's always a little gray in the spectrum, at least a little on each end. When I read religious texts, I see black and white thinking throughout, and it troubles me. Humanity is, under religious context, already full of sin. For God to bestow a method of teaching and thinking that's flawed onto a sinful group, to teach and spread awareness of His work...it's baffling and possibly self-defeating. Most religious people I know have never read the bible. They listen to their preachers and log mental notes on what is said. If these are the people who are spreading the word, how is one to honestly see such a religion in a good light? If these people are contorting the scripture to bring it in line with their personal beliefs, how can one truly find honest faith in such a deity through tainted scripture? Sorry for the rant. I'd like to believe, but I've seen so much damage in polarized thinking, in what it does to religion and faith, in what it does to people. I've seen the scriptures bent and twisted to the whims of humanity, not under the watchful eyes of a deity. For me to have to follow such a twisted path to be accepted is beyond me. All I see down that path is ruin and confusion, and if that's perceived as pride if judgment day happens, then I suppose that will be what it will be, but I can only put my faith in humanity when it comes to science/knowledge, not faith. So I remain agnostic. If I were to be graced by a holy presence in some form offering such proof or answers to my questions of faith, then that would fiz everything, but then it wouldn't be faith in religion. It would be knowledge. I don't believe I'm entitled to such knowledge outside of scripture.... :(I still don't see how it's flawed. Man, of course, being flawed, will make mistakes, but all are capable of searching for truth, and finding it. I do understand where you are coming from though, and I really hope, one day, that you will come to believe.
Me? Oh my yes[QUOTE="xaos"]LOL at trying to apply modern sensibilities to 2500 year old laws of desert nomadsRutzfuz
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