LOL at trying to apply modern sensibilities to 2500 year old laws of desert nomadsxaosMe? Oh my yes It's not nice to scoff. It's an honest endeavor, and there's nothing wrong with respecting it.
How does this make sense?
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Weird, because the Bible itself says he's a jealous vengeful God. Wrath and envy, of course, being two of the seven deadly sins. That's a Catholic view which summarizes the outcome of sin by the people, and are BASED off why people sin. However, they are not directly addressed as sins in the scriptures. Sin is based off it, but not sins themselves. Wherefore, God has wrath and jealousy, yet does not carry it out into a sinful manner.[QUOTE="JinjonatorX"][QUOTE="J-man45"] Of course not. God does not lie, because God is sinless.wiifan001
For example, lust leads to wicked thoughts of, as explained in Matthew 5: 28, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her committeth adultery with her already in his heart"
Not carried out in a sinful manner? Have you even READ the Bible? He spends the whole first half killing people, or else telling other people to go around killing people. We're evidently working under vastly different definitions of what constitutes sinful.[QUOTE="wiifan001"]That's a Catholic view which summarizes the outcome of sin by the people, and are BASED off why people sin. However, they are not directly addressed as sins in the scriptures. Sin is based off it, but not sins themselves. Wherefore, God has wrath and jealousy, yet does not carry it out into a sinful manner.[QUOTE="JinjonatorX"] Weird, because the Bible itself says he's a jealous vengeful God. Wrath and envy, of course, being two of the seven deadly sins. JinjonatorX
For example, lust leads to wicked thoughts of, as explained in Matthew 5: 28, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her committeth adultery with her already in his heart"
Not carried out in a sinful manner? Have you even READ the Bible? He spends the whole first half killing people, or else telling other people to go around killing people. We're evidently working under vastly different definitions of what constitutes sinful.The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Those who do not live by the Lord, shall die by the Lord. It's justice; that's what it is.
Could you provide an example of the Lord telling people to go kill other people?
[QUOTE="Lockedge"]
I've always heard this issue of pride brought up. Personally, I'm agnostic. I don't believe because I cannot know that there is a god. If, by some strange luck, I was graced with some miraculous event, I'd flip on a dime. I don't understand why people 2000 years ago got the son of god, or even some proof that God is real through real-life events, while today it's off faith alone that people must believe. When 90% of pastors/reverends/etc. skew scripture and lie to and/or mislead their followers, leading their flock astray, how can I possibly trust the word of these religious leaders? How can I possibly trust the written word of God after humanity has defiled with through poor translation, revisionist methods, cutting out fragments of scripture that weren't applicable, etc.? Why must I have faith in both God, and in the forever sinful humanity, in order to be granted access to God's kingdom?
wiifan001
whoa whoa whoa slow down. Slow down the questions. I'll address this as best I can.
We don't have just faith, we have churches and temples and prophets and seers and revelators and priests, etc. who have the power and authority. We also have the scriptures. It is not just on faith alone, but also the very character of ourselves that factor. We have all these things, and not only do we have them, but we can build on them.
How can you trust the words of the religious leaders? Turn to James Chapter 1 verse 5: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him" Hopefully that helps clear that up to some extent
Now, about the translations, I will present this: The book of John chapter 10 verse 35, and this is Jesus Christ who says this: "Scripture cannot be broken." . If the scripture is broken, then Jesus's prophesy is hereby false, and Jesus is not the son of God. Don't confuse mistranslation with broken scripture, for they are 2 separate things.
Last question to answer: no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven, but if ye will repent of thy sins with an open mind and open heart, and confess all your sins, ye shall be clean before the Lord on the last day of judgment
We, us people, do not everything, but we know enough. Take the resources and scripture that we DO have, rather than what we don't have, and apply once you've gained the strength and testimony of it. Where do you start? Try applying James 1:5 (see above)
Thanks for your patience.
As a kid growing up in a relatively religious household(dad wasn't interested, mom is devout, grandparents are all rather strict believers), I was around church a lot, and my grandmother would give me a bible(usually each year with a different cover, KJV translation) at christmas each year to read with her. Lots of things happened in my childhood medically, and I could understand that everyone has obstacles to overcome in life. That's one lesson I hold onto firmly.
Yet, as I aged, and read more and more scripture, I started paying attention to my church reverend's sermons...and it seemed the more political they got, the more out of context his usage of the scripture was. I was 14 or 15 spending my free time studying scripture trying to see how he could justify using scripture in such a way. I'd ask him and I'd get a totally unrelated answer. I'd ask God to show me the truth and I just couldn't find it. I didn't have a head for politics, I still don't, but the longer I remained in his church, the more metaphor was stripped from the scripture in my mind(at the time). The lessons I'd been taught through my grandmother and through reading the book on my own were suddenly competing with these rather extreme tie-ins that didn't fit the lessons in the scripture. They were sometimes not at all related, yet he was a leader? He held service for over a hundred people. So I quit that church. It was the beginning of the end for me and organized religion. I haven't stumbled onto a church that was so poorly led as my first, but I've often been quick to leave at any sign of unwarranted extremity.
I can ask God all the questions in the world, and the only conduit for answering them is scripture. The print press hasn't always been around, modern language hasn't always been around. Words have since been born, vanished, taken new meanings, lost old ones....parts of the Bible have been removed entirely and labeled outside of official canon, with hardly a hiccup of outrage. If it was a group of humans that compiled the Bible, and a group of humans emoved parts of the bible from canon, who is to say that upon the initial or subsequent compilations that parts weren't removed or added or changed? Am I to have as much faith in humanity as in God, because it's humanity who is dictating what God wants from me. It's humanity that tells me the way to Heaven. Jesus may have said scripture cannot be broken. That much is likely to be true, but with evidence that God does not speak directly to the Pope or other high-standing religious officials, how can one say humans have not went against Jesus' word? God used humans to write the Bible, but there's certainly enough proof that humans have taken liberties with the texts.
I know what I've done wrong in life, I beg forgiveness for those errors in judgement as always. My issue has never been with repentance directly, but with religion. I can't trust humanity. I can't trust in religious leaders or their churches, because the bible is subjective under their understanding of it and personal beliefs. Some specific things aren't covered in the bible because they didn't exist in that culture or time period, and to propose the Bible has an answer for every little thing involves people stretching the scripture to fit personal beliefs.
It's a struggle between my belief in God, and my understanding of what I am to do in this life(through religion, thus affecting my understading of God as well, which brings about this issue). In my 24 years, I've gone through periods of belief, and questioning, and non belief, and back again because of religion. I've almost always held out some belief that there's a deity, but at the same time it's hard to trust that humanity has kept truth in place for so many years without altering the message.
In the end, I suppose I'm just conflicted, and hopefully along the way I'll figure something out.
Thanks for your patience.
As a kid growing up in a relatively religious household(dad wasn't interested, mom is devout, grandparents are all rather strict believers), I was around church a lot, and my grandmother would give me a bible(usually each year with a different cover, KJV translation) at christmas each year to read with her. Lots of things happened in my childhood medically, and I could understand that everyone has obstacles to overcome in life. That's one lesson I hold onto firmly.
Yet, as I aged, and read more and more scripture, I started paying attention to my church reverend's sermons...and it seemed the more political they got, the more out of context his usage of the scripture was. I was 14 or 15 spending my free time studying scripture trying to see how he could justify using scripture in such a way. I'd ask him and I'd get a totally unrelated answer. I'd ask God to show me the truth and I just couldn't find it. I didn't have a head for politics, I still don't, but the longer I remained in his church, the more metaphor was stripped from the scripture in my mind(at the time). The lessons I'd been taught through my grandmother and through reading the book on my own were suddenly competing with these rather extreme tie-ins that didn't fit the lessons in the scripture. They were sometimes not at all related, yet he was a leader? He held service for over a hundred people. So I quit that church. It was the beginning of the end for me and organized religion. I haven't stumbled onto a church that was so poorly led as my first, but I've often been quick to leave at any sign of unwarranted extremity.
I can ask God all the questions in the world, and the only conduit for answering them is scripture. The print press hasn't always been around, modern language hasn't always been around. Words have since been born, vanished, taken new meanings, lost old ones....parts of the Bible have been removed entirely and labeled outside of official canon, with hardly a hiccup of outrage. If it was a group of humans that compiled the Bible, and a group of humans emoved parts of the bible from canon, who is to say that upon the initial or subsequent compilations that parts weren't removed or added or changed? Am I to have as much faith in humanity as in God, because it's humanity who is dictating what God wants from me. It's humanity that tells me the way to Heaven. Jesus may have said scripture cannot be broken. That much is likely to be true, but with evidence that God does not speak directly to the Pope or other high-standing religious officials, how can one say humans have not went against Jesus' word? God used humans to write the Bible, but there's certainly enough proof that humans have taken liberties with the texts.
I know what I've done wrong in life, I beg forgiveness for those errors in judgement as always. My issue has never been with repentance directly, but with religion. I can't trust humanity. I can't trust in religious leaders or their churches, because the bible is subjective under their understanding of it and personal beliefs. Some specific things aren't covered in the bible because they didn't exist in that culture or time period, and to propose the Bible has an answer for every little thing involves people stretching the scripture to fit personal beliefs.
It's a struggle between my belief in God, and my understanding of what I am to do in this life(through religion, thus affecting my understading of God as well, which brings about this issue). In my 24 years, I've gone through periods of belief, and questioning, and non belief, and back again because of religion. I've almost always held out some belief that there's a deity, but at the same time it's hard to trust that humanity has kept truth in place for so many years without altering the message.
In the end, I suppose I'm just conflicted, and hopefully along the way I'll figure something out.
Lockedge
Maybe you are putting too much weight on organized religion. No, seriously hear me out.
You say you started just reading the Bible on your own, just you and your grandmother. What was wrong with that? Listen, finding the right church can be so difficult, but do you know what God is concerned about? The relationship. He wants you, and he doesn't need organized religion to get to you. You've read the Bible and you want to believe. Why not take a leap of faith and try to build back a relationship with God? Just you and God. You don't need a pastor interfering at this point. In a way your right, many authority faith figures can misinterpret and mess things up. I think you should worry more about searching for truth on your own. I think you will find it.
I don't know, I guess I'm just fortunate to be with and to have grown up in the church I am with. Sorry if I am no help. :?
The correct commandment is "Lusting after they neighbors wife".cd_romGay people won't go to hell then
[QUOTE="J-man45"][QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]
So, why are there people that believe in God that have yet to accept Jesus?
Lockedge
Many reasons. My guess would be either they have yet to understand who Jesus is and what he did, or they believe in salvation by works, such as in other religions different from Christianity. I can believe there's a God up there, but that doesn't mean I have to care. That's another reason.
What about people who have never heard of Jesus, who have never heard of Christianity or any of the other major religions? If they are idolaters, are they at fault? Even though God has not graced them with messengers and prophets? If they do not follow the ten commandments out of ignorance, are they exempt? Is there purgatory, or, do they just get sent to hell like other non-believers?Duh, read Dante's Inferno. They go to the good part of hell and sing songs around a camp fire :P
The Ten Commandments were not created to make sense. They were designed as guidelines (as ludicrous as some are), and to condemn people who simply do what they were born to do (lust), so the only avenue out is to believe. There's no way to follow all of them, if we did we wouldn't be human. It's theological entrapment.
Some compare it to judges, but no judge would give a life sentence for jaywalking or driving with outdated insurance papers. God, as many claim him to be, sees things too polarized, and that's a flaw. There are almost always exceptions.Lockedge
What gets me is that believers claim God to be the "perfect judge". I don't understand this. Hypothetical.....you believe in God. Now, if I lie and you lie, I'll be condemned and you'll be rewarded, because you believe in God and I don't. How exactly is that just? If His judgement were perfect and completely fair, we'd both be thrown in the slammer regardless of whether or not we worshipped the ground He walked on.
Not carried out in a sinful manner? Have you even READ the Bible? He spends the whole first half killing people, or else telling other people to go around killing people. We're evidently working under vastly different definitions of what constitutes sinful.[QUOTE="JinjonatorX"][QUOTE="wiifan001"] That's a Catholic view which summarizes the outcome of sin by the people, and are BASED off why people sin. However, they are not directly addressed as sins in the scriptures. Sin is based off it, but not sins themselves. Wherefore, God has wrath and jealousy, yet does not carry it out into a sinful manner.
For example, lust leads to wicked thoughts of, as explained in Matthew 5: 28, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her committeth adultery with her already in his heart"
wiifan001
The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Those who do not live by the Lord, shall die by the Lord. It's justice; that's what it is.
Could you provide an example of the Lord telling people to go kill other people?
Believe in me or die...
That's not justice, that's extortion.
Not carried out in a sinful manner? Have you even READ the Bible? He spends the whole first half killing people, or else telling other people to go around killing people. We're evidently working under vastly different definitions of what constitutes sinful.[QUOTE="JinjonatorX"][QUOTE="wiifan001"] That's a Catholic view which summarizes the outcome of sin by the people, and are BASED off why people sin. However, they are not directly addressed as sins in the scriptures. Sin is based off it, but not sins themselves. Wherefore, God has wrath and jealousy, yet does not carry it out into a sinful manner.
For example, lust leads to wicked thoughts of, as explained in Matthew 5: 28, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her committeth adultery with her already in his heart"
wiifan001
The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Those who do not live by the Lord, shall die by the Lord. It's justice; that's what it is.
Could you provide an example of the Lord telling people to go kill other people?
I could give plenty of examples, but it clearly wouldn't do any good since you seem to be perfectly fine with the notion of God killing people (which negates the hell out of the whole idea that we're supposed to be able to have a choice; being held at the point of a gun does not equal being given a choice).True, all of the Law found in the first five books (called thhe Torah by the Jews) were meant as what you said above. The Ten Commandments, however, are meant to be followed. Man will fail, obviously, but if every one were to strive to live by them more often, I believe the world would be a better place.The Ten Commandments were not created to make sense. They were designed as guidelines (as ludicrous as some are), and to condemn people who simply do what they were born to do (lust), so the only avenue out is to believe. There's no way to follow all of them, if we did we wouldn't be human. It's theological entrapment.
Rekunta
[QUOTE="Lockedge"] Some compare it to judges, but no judge would give a life sentence for jaywalking or driving with outdated insurance papers. God, as many claim him to be, sees things too polarized, and that's a flaw. There are almost always exceptions.Rekunta
What gets me is that believers claim God to be the "perfect judge". I don't understand this. Hypothetical.....you believe in God. Now, if I lie and you lie, I'll be condemned and you'll be rewarded, because you believe in God and I don't. How exactly is that just? If His judgement were perfect and completely fair, we'd both be thrown in the slammer regardless of whether or not we worshipped the ground He walked on.
The difference is not that I believe in God and worship him, the difference is I have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I have repented of my sins. I have been enternally sealed, and nothing I can do will condemn me. God offers his grace to a people who have no chance of getting to God on their own. Since he offers it to all people, he is still just.are you looking for a jewish or christian perspective ?surrealnumber5Here's the jewish one: (1) it's "do not bear false testimony"- as opposed to "do not lie". (2) most commentaries regarding the "do not lust" bit are, usually, concerend with acting out according to the lust. (2) is a great oversimplification, though. what I wrote is based on a premise, accepted by the bulk of "Judaism", that you cannot "Forbid a man what's in his heart". Also- Jews, usually, do not regard the existence of hell.
[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]are you looking for a jewish or christian perspective ?grape_of_wrathHere's the jewish one: (1) it's "do not bear false testimony"- as opposed to "do not lie". (2) most commentaries regarding the "do not lust" bit are, usually, concerend with acting out according to the lust. (2) is a great oversimplification, though. what I wrote is based on a premise, accepted by the bulk of "Judaism", that you cannot "Forbid a man what's in his heart". Also- Jews, usually, do not regard the existence of hell.
Why do Jews not believe in hell?
Here's the jewish one: (1) it's "do not bear false testimony"- as opposed to "do not lie". (2) most commentaries regarding the "do not lust" bit are, usually, concerend with acting out according to the lust. (2) is a great oversimplification, though. what I wrote is based on a premise, accepted by the bulk of "Judaism", that you cannot "Forbid a man what's in his heart". Also- Jews, usually, do not regard the existence of hell.[QUOTE="grape_of_wrath"][QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]are you looking for a jewish or christian perspective ?J-man45
Why do Jews not believe in hell?
Because it's not attested in the Torah?[QUOTE="J-man45"][QUOTE="grape_of_wrath"] Here's the jewish one: (1) it's "do not bear false testimony"- as opposed to "do not lie". (2) most commentaries regarding the "do not lust" bit are, usually, concerend with acting out according to the lust. (2) is a great oversimplification, though. what I wrote is based on a premise, accepted by the bulk of "Judaism", that you cannot "Forbid a man what's in his heart". Also- Jews, usually, do not regard the existence of hell.xaos
Why do Jews not believe in hell?
Because it's not attested in the Torah?I was merely wanting a geniune answer from a Jewish perspective.
Because it's not attested in the Torah?[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="J-man45"]
Why do Jews not believe in hell?
J-man45
I was merely wanting a geniune answer from a Jewish perspective.
I'm not Jewish, but I'm not sure what the problem with the factual answer I gave you is Edit: If there is a problem; looking back at your response, I'm not sure if you find my response acceptable or notHere's the jewish one: (1) it's "do not bear false testimony"- as opposed to "do not lie". (2) most commentaries regarding the "do not lust" bit are, usually, concerend with acting out according to the lust. (2) is a great oversimplification, though. what I wrote is based on a premise, accepted by the bulk of "Judaism", that you cannot "Forbid a man what's in his heart". Also- Jews, usually, do not regard the existence of hell.[QUOTE="grape_of_wrath"][QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]are you looking for a jewish or christian perspective ?J-man45
Why do Jews not believe in hell?
Judaism has a habit of dealing mainly with the mundane, day to day life. It's not preoccupied with the apocalypse and the end-of-days like the other two abrahamic religions. I am also not aware of any mentioning of hell in the old testament. I am, seriously, fuzzy about how Judasim feels regarding the existence of hell, though. It's not something discussed- the religious people I asked usually didn't have an answer.[QUOTE="J-man45"][QUOTE="xaos"] Because it's not attested in the Torah?xaos
I was merely wanting a geniune answer from a Jewish perspective.
I'm not Jewish, but I'm not sure what the problem with the factual answer I gave you is Edit: If there is a problem; looking back at your response, I'm not sure if you find my response acceptable or notWell I mainly said that because of the tone of the response (which I may have imagined, but still)
I was thinking about the sins people do and the Ten Commandments. And what doesn't make sense is some of the Commandments.
One of them is not lusting over a woman. Now how is that fair? If you have sex with a person your not lusting them? And also lying can also send you to hell. Now, I am sure that everybody has lied once. Does that mean everyone will go to hell, or at least be sent to Purgatory? What do you think?
Rutzfuz
You obviously don't know too much about it... there is a thing called forgivness.
Let's use an analogy. If you punch someone once in the face, you may get sent to prison for a few months. If you punch several people and kill a few of them, you will spend many years in jail. Basically, you have to try to not commit the sins because it is impossible for a man to be sinless.
If the ten commandments were all things that nobody wanted to do what would be the point of having them?
[QUOTE="cd_rom"]
The correct commandment is "Lusting after they neighbors wife".
jerk-o-tron2000
Does this mean I can lust aftera stranger's wife?
*sigh* in other words, dont sleep with an other mans wife or cheat.
The difference is not that I believe in God and worship him, the difference is I have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I have repented of my sins. I have been enternally sealed, and nothing I can do will condemn me. God offers his grace to a people who have no chance of getting to God on their own. Since he offers it to all people, he is still just.J-man45
So could you present me with an analogy in RL that would allow one person who is guilty and believes and gets saved vs. one that is also guilty but doesn't believe or repent and gets condemned, while still maintaining that judge to be perfectly just? A judge's job is to (try to) be completely impartial and as objective as possible. That one accepts the "grace" of the judge does not absolve them of guilt nor the punishment, if you claim Him to be a perfect judge.
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