If Texas were to secede...

The government can't go after them because they have the right to secede...well they could..but yeah..

Hell yeah they would. Tanks would be rolling over Texas cities faster than in Iraq.

The government can't go after them because they have the right to secede...well they could..but yeah..

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Tell that to the Confederate States of America.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

The government can't go after them because they have the right to secede...well they could..but yeah..

Wasdie

Tell that to the Confederate States of America.

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

The government can't go after them because they have the right to secede...well they could..but yeah..

Wasdie

Tell that to the Confederate States of America.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="Xx_Hopeless_xX"]

The government can't go after them because they have the right to secede...well they could..but yeah..

shakmaster13

Tell that to the Confederate States of America.

Can't Texas legally join Mexico at any time? I thought it was the only state that had that right.Fried_Shrimp

Does anyone know where it says in the constitution that states cannot secederawsavon

Explicitly speaking, nowhere. And because the Constitution makes no outright mention of secession, the Supreme Court has the authority to interpret the Constitution, and in doing so, it was decided in a 5-3 vote in 1869 in Texas v. White that unilateral secession is unconstitutional, while suggesting that consensual agreement between states could promote a successful secession.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Zyrokin"] I could very well see them having a better standard of living. Pending a US/Texas war obviously. But, I think they would do better by themselves, just saying.Zyrokin

Put it in this perspective.. China and the US are close partners, they really can't flourish economically without oen another.. Now put in perspective, Texas and the US.. Texas depends like every state off multiple states for raw resources, plants, products etc etc.. Texas can not flourish.. They would go bankrupt because they are not autnomous, they wer enever developed tha way (like any state) and depend off the industries of other states.. The US would not trade with them, and they would blockade their ports.. As well as put political pressure on neighboring nations not trade with them.. Then put in perspective, that things like our electircal grid, water systems etc etc go cross state, and the US federal government would cut them off.. So no, I am sorry guys it would take them decades to become autonomous at best..

This goes for ANY state, they were never developed to do this.. Its baffling really that some how people magically think Texas would succeed :lol:.. I would love when this happens and the entire borders just flood with immigrants.. And Rav your argument is pretty pointless.. Yeah you right it is possible for people to live ina desert, but is there a point? Nope.. And yet again no the woudl not live better.. They have no government able to do things like defense, mailing, social services.. Whats going to happen to all the old people in the state that are depending on social services like medicare and social security? Thats one of many programs.. Furthermore I guess people arn't aware that their food comes from multiple states, and very few states actually produce enough food to feed themselves..

[QUOTE="Zyrokin"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] I very seriously doubt that, for reasons already stated.sSubZerOo

Put it in this perspective.. China and the US are close partners, they really can't flourish economically without oen another.. Now put in perspective, Texas and the US.. Texas depends like every state off multiple states for raw resources, plants, products etc etc.. Texas can not flourish.. They would go bankrupt because they are not autnomous, they wer enever developed tha way (like any state) and depend off the industries of other states.. The US would not trade with them, and they would blockade their ports.. As well as put political pressure on neighboring nations not trade with them.. Then put in perspective, that things like our electircal grid, water systems etc etc go cross state, and the US federal government would cut them off.. So no, I am sorry guys it would take them decades to become autonomous at best..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="Zyrokin"] I think everyone gives the U.S. too much credit. But honestly the "have" states hold up the rest. Texas is one of those haves. This is from a non-Texan btw, I'm not some Texas homer, I just wouldn't put anything past them.

Zyrokin

Put it in this perspective.. China and the US are close partners, they really can't flourish economically without oen another.. Now put in perspective, Texas and the US.. Texas depends like every state off multiple states for raw resources, plants, products etc etc.. Texas can not flourish.. They would go bankrupt because they are not autnomous, they wer enever developed tha way (like any state) and depend off the industries of other states.. The US would not trade with them, and they would blockade their ports.. As well as put political pressure on neighboring nations not trade with them.. Then put in perspective, that things like our electircal grid, water systems etc etc go cross state, and the US federal government would cut them off.. So no, I am sorry guys it would take them decades to become autonomous at best..

No they wouldn't, there would be nothing to gain.. Thats why the people who suggest it are loony extreme conservatives.

Also, Texas is bigger than most countries, so I don't see why they are so reliant on everyone one else in the US.

Size is irrelevent.. Texas doesn't have every industry it needs.. To me you seem to lack basic understanding of our economy.

Lastly, I don't think the Us would end up doing much.

Hell YES they would.. Not only is it a act of treason, but they would lose a large contributor to their economy..

To many would oppose any opposition.

No yet again they wouldn't, becuase its a act of treason.. And would end up hurting more poeple then actually helping..

Don't get me wrong, I know it wouldn't be easy.

No inless the US became unstable and civil war was breaking out it would be impossible.

But I don't agree that it is unlikely. I see it as a real possibility.

Reality seems to point otherwise.

For one thing, I don't think Texas would go by themselves.

No they wouldn't, there would be nothing to gain.. Thats why the people who suggest it are loony extreme conservatives.

Also, Texas is bigger than most countries, so I don't see why they are so reliant on everyone one else in the US.

Size is irrelevent.. Texas doesn't have every industry it needs.. To me you seem to lack basic understanding of our economy.

Lastly, I don't think the Us would end up doing much.

Hell YES they would.. Not only is it a act of treason, but they would lose a large contributor to their economy..

To many would oppose any opposition.

No yet again they wouldn't, becuase its a act of treason.. And would end up hurting more poeple then actually helping..

Don't get me wrong, I know it wouldn't be easy.

No inless the US became unstable and civil war was breaking out it would be impossible.

But I don't agree that it is unlikely. I see it as a real possibility.

Reality seems to point otherwise.

sSubZerOo

You saying they are to stupid to build their economy and the things they need? People find a way. I don't lack a basic understanding of our economy, I just don't live in your fake little fantasy world. No it is not impossible, we are the people, and people do what the heck they want. They have before. It wouldn't take a civil war for Texas to try and leave, or anyone else for that matter I just think Texas would be the most likely to do it, just more US going in the way the state does not want.

Ok scooter, why don't you explain this reality to me and why it would be so gosh darn impossible. All you are spouting is that reality would prevent it, yet you prove nothing at all. And I take back my first statement, Texas COULD go by themselves and would have plenty to gain.

idk what would happen, what i do know is that less drug trafficking would happen there.

Wait, so Texes wants to split from America?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

For one thing, I don't think Texas would go by themselves.

No they wouldn't, there would be nothing to gain.. Thats why the people who suggest it are loony extreme conservatives.

Also, Texas is bigger than most countries, so I don't see why they are so reliant on everyone one else in the US.

Size is irrelevent.. Texas doesn't have every industry it needs.. To me you seem to lack basic understanding of our economy.

Lastly, I don't think the Us would end up doing much.

Hell YES they would.. Not only is it a act of treason, but they would lose a large contributor to their economy..

To many would oppose any opposition.

No yet again they wouldn't, becuase its a act of treason.. And would end up hurting more poeple then actually helping..

Don't get me wrong, I know it wouldn't be easy.

No inless the US became unstable and civil war was breaking out it would be impossible.

But I don't agree that it is unlikely. I see it as a real possibility.

Reality seems to point otherwise.

Zyrokin

You saying they are to stupid to build their economy and the things they need? People find a way.

This is pointless blather that proves nothing.. Yet again you have yet to prove how they will be more successful..

I don't lack a basic understanding of our economy,

It seems like you do.. Or you would realize why it would be a bad idea why they would leave.. Seeing as they depend off multiple other states for their electronics, food, tools etc etc.

I just don't live in your fake little fantasy world.

Your the one claiming they will live a better life when they leave the US not I.. So who is living the fantasy?

No it is not impossible,

Yes seeing as the US has a overpowering military, and a easy boycott can bring Texas down to its knees.

we are the people, and people do what the heck they want.

Texas does not represent the majority of the US sorry.

They have before.

Yes in the 1800s when all states were basically autonomous where they had to grow their own food and make their own products... This alone shows your view point is quite nieve if you some how think Texas back then is the same it was now..

It wouldn't take a civil war for Texas to try and leave,

Nor did I ever say that.. But to succeed hell yes it would be.

or anyone else for that matter

That would even harder for many other states seeing as they are landlocked with the rest of the country.

I just think Texas would be the most likely to do it,

No you said they are the most likely to succeed.. I disagree compeltely.

just more US going in the way the state does not want.

Thats great, where in this equation does this mean they leave?

Ok scooter, why don't you explain this reality to me and why it would be so gosh darn impossible.

Overpowering military, Texas depends of industries of other states to not only be successful in economics but to feed themselves.. We all depend off of social services brought to by the government.. Not to mention the fact that Texas doesn't have the infastructure build already for government or services.. The US wouldn't even need to invade, becuase thier military is already THERE in multipel bases.. FURTHERMORE a simple blockade would starve the country.

All you are spouting is that reality would prevent it, yet you prove nothing at all.And I take back my first statement, Texas COULD go by themselves and would have plenty to gain.

No they wouldn't because they are not autonomous.. And the US would cut them off from all trade.

I'm not sure about all out war, but the American government would fight to keep Texas in the Union.meetroid8

There wouldn't be a war, nor would they ever be able to secede.. The moment there is a chance of civil unrest, the military moves in with 50k soldiers and declares martial law.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Does anyone know where it says in the constitution that states cannot secedeChiSoxBombers

Explicitly speaking, nowhere. And because the Constitution makes no outright mention of secession, the Supreme Court has the authority to interpret the Constitution, and in doing so, it was decided in a 5-3 vote in 1869 in Texas v. White that unilateral secession is unconstitutional, while suggesting that consensual agreement between states could promote a successful secession.

That's what I thought as well.
I got this from an obviously biased website...but I would still like your thoughts on the matter

Didn't the U.S. Supreme Court decision inTexas v. Whiteprove that secession is unconstitutional?

No. For space considerations, here are the relevant portions of the Supreme Court's decision inTexas v. White:

"When Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

"...The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union ...remained perfect and unimpaired. ...the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union.

"...Our conclusion therefore is, that Texas continued to be a State, and a State of the Union."

— Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700, 703 (1868)

It is noteworthy that two years after that decision, President Grant signed an act entitling Texas to U.S. Congressional representation, readmitting Texas to the Union.

What's wrong with this picture? Either the Supreme Court was wrong in claiming Texas never actually left the Union (they were — see below), or the Executive (President Grant) was wrong in "readmitting" a state that, according to the Supreme Court, had never left. Both can't be logically or legally true.

To be clear: Within a two year period, two branches of the same government took action with regard to Texas on the basis of two mutually exclusive positions — one, a judicially contrived "interpretation" of the US Constitution, argued essentially from silence, and the other a practical attempt to remedy the historical fact that Texas had indeed left the Union, the very evidence for which was that Texas had recently met the demands imposed by the same federal government as prerequisite conditions for readmission. If the Supreme Court was right, then the very notion of prerequisites for readmission would have been moot — a state cannot logically be readmitted if it never left in the first place.

This gross logical and legal inconsistency remains unanswered and unresolved to this day.

Now to the Supreme Court decision in itself...

The Court, led by Chief Justice Salmon Chase (a Lincoln cabinet member and leading Union figure during the war against the South) pretended to be analyzing the case through the lens of the Constitution, yet not a single element of their logic or line of reasoning came directly from the Constitution — precisely because the Constitution is wholly silent on whether the voluntary association of a plurality of states into a union may be altered by the similarly voluntary withdrawal of one or more states.

It's no secret that more than once there had been previous rumblings about secession among many U.S. states (and not just in the South), long before the South seceded. These rumblings met with no preemptive quashing of the notion from a "constitutional" argument, precisely because there was (and is) no constitutional basis for either allowing or prohibiting secession.

An objective reading of the relevant portions of the White decision reveals that it is largely arbitrary, contrived, and crafted to suit the agenda which it served: presumably (but unconstitutionally) to award to the U.S. federal government, under color of law, sovereignty over the states, essentially nullifying their right to self-determination and self-rule, as recognized in the Declaration of Independence, as well as the current Texas Constitution (which stands unchallenged by the federal government).

Where the Constitution does speak to the issue of powers, they resolve in favor of the states unless expressly granted to the federal government or denied to the states. No power to prevent or reverse secession is granted to the federal government, and the power to secede is not specifically denied to the states; therefore that power is retained by the states, as guaranteed by the 10th Amendment.

TheTexas v. Whitecase is often trotted out to silence secessionist sentiment, but on close and contextual examination, it actually exposes the unconstitutional, despotic, and tyrannical agenda that presumes to award the federal government, under color of law, sovereignty over the people and the states.

Zyrokin

[QUOTE="entropyecho"]I want to visit Texas some day.

I hear everything is bigger in Texas.

Especially the women's disappointment. BOOM!

SeraphimGoddess

As a Texan who hasn't heard that joke before, unlike all the other abused stereo-types and whatnot out there, I found it hilarious. :lol:

lol same here

but i highly doubt Tecas would secede

I'm not all that knowledgable on the constitution in terms of secession, or Texas in general.

However, let's there's a legal way to secede obviously the federal government would not get in the way of a legal secession. The problem is that the federal government would more than likely use every legal way possible to block the secession. Like in Canada, Quebec certainly has the right to secede. However, the federal government has put so many (though fair) regulations on a legal secession that it would be pretty much impossible for it to happen, legally at least.

The federal government would demand a return of government investments and property, a payment of a portion of public debt, probably country-wide consent through referendum, guarantees in terms of freedom of transport and trade, and all kinds of stuff. I can't really see both sides ever coming to an agreement on such a wide variety of things. Which would either lead to a failure to secede, or the Texas government saying "Well we have the consent of our own people so we're doing anyways" which would indeed lead to some potentially lethal conflict.

But let's say they do secede. Texas could get by, however both parties would be worse off without one another so I don't see the point. And Texas is worse off without America than America is worse off without Texas.

I hope Texas doesn't secede D:

Sub- We are not going to agree on this. All I know is that it is possible given the right circumstances. I believe the world is controlled chaos, and therefor it always changes and we adapt, that is why I think there is a possible reality to them seceding. Just saying.

[QUOTE="Zyrokin"]rawsavon

If it were any state other than Texas they might.

I'm going to say no. I just cant imagine liberal democrats supporting going to war if Texas decided to leave the union over economic reasons. The right wing, while gung ho about a strong US, would probably be hesitant about killing fellow Americans on anything that isnt considered a gross human rights violations like genocide or slavery. Realistically, the red states would probably see it as an opportunity for them as it would shake up things. Governors and Republicans would probably use the issue as a way to leverage concessions from the federal government.

majwill24

Well, you see, liberal democrats aren't in control of the democratic party, centrists are. And it states in the constitution that no state can secede, therefore there will be a war.

[QUOTE="shakmaster13"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Tell that to the Confederate States of America.

Xx_Hopeless_xX

Texas cannot legally secede, that is a myth.

[QUOTE="ChiSoxBombers"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]Does anyone know where it says in the constitution that states cannot secederawsavon

Explicitly speaking, nowhere. And because the Constitution makes no outright mention of secession, the Supreme Court has the authority to interpret the Constitution, and in doing so, it was decided in a 5-3 vote in 1869 in Texas v. White that unilateral secession is unconstitutional, while suggesting that consensual agreement between states could promote a successful secession.

That's what I thought as well.
I got this from an obviously biased website...but I would still like your thoughts on the matter

Didn't the U.S. Supreme Court decision inTexas v. Whiteprove that secession is unconstitutional?

Basically, the court decision promoted the idea that States can talk a big game and say they are going to secede from the Union, but even if they break away from the US and take action against them, the true fact of the matter is that when they originally agreed to being a State, they were forever a State(hence the "indissoluble union").So, their actions were basically ignored and seen as having no basis in law whatsoever. The Civil War is seen as a war of rebellion, not a war of conquest, suggesting that the South was still a part of the US when they went to war, rather than a foreign nation looking to take over the US. In that, i agree.

So,Texas v. White denies secession only on the basis that States cannot secede because of the perpetual union of the states and because there is no basis for it in law. BUT, because there is no basis in law, by order of the 10th Amendment, Texas can freely secede from the United States because those unmentioned powers are thusly enumerated to the states to handle.

Texas can secede, it is just that the United States will not recognize it. They do not, however, have the authority to stop it, unless of course it represents a"clear and present danger" to the nation. And that is my opinion.

[QUOTE="Zyrokin"]rawsavon

I thought his assertion that the Federal Government would cease all business in between the states and Texas to be odd. It wouldn't be in the interest of the U.S. to do so, if all means of preventing secession are exhausted. The U.S. would suffer a bit from lost trade with Texas.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="ChiSoxBombers"]

Explicitly speaking, nowhere. And because the Constitution makes no outright mention of secession, the Supreme Court has the authority to interpret the Constitution, and in doing so, it was decided in a 5-3 vote in 1869 in Texas v. White that unilateral secession is unconstitutional, while suggesting that consensual agreement between states could promote a successful secession.

ChiSoxBombers

That's what I thought as well.
I got this from an obviously biased website...but I would still like your thoughts on the matter

Didn't the U.S. Supreme Court decision inTexas v. Whiteprove that secession is unconstitutional?

Basically, the court decision promoted the idea that States can talk a big game and say they are going to secede from the Union, but even if they break away from the US and take action against them, the true fact of the matter is that when they originally agreed to being a State, they were forever a State(hence the "indissoluble union").So, their actions were basically ignored and seen as having no basis in law whatsoever. The Civil War is seen as a war of rebellion, not a war of conquest, suggesting that the South was still a part of the US when they went to war, rather than a foreign nation looking to take over the US. In that, i agree.

So,Texas v. White denies secession only on the basis that States cannot secede because of the perpetual union of the states and because there is no basis for it in law. BUT, because there is no basis in law, by order of the 10th Amendment, Texas can freely secede from the United States because those unmentioned powers are thusly enumerated to the states to handle.

Texas can secede, it is just that the United States will not recognize it. They do not, however, have the authority to stop it, unless of course it represents a"clear and present danger" to the nation. And that is my opinion.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Zyrokin"]coolbeans90

I thought his assertion that the Federal Government would cease all business in between the states and Texas to be odd. It wouldn't be in the interest of the U.S. to do so, if all means of preventing secession are exhausted. The U.S. would suffer a bit from lost trade with Texas.

Texas wouldn't be able to survive as an independent nation.

Sub- We are not going to agree on this. All I know is that it is possible given the right circumstances. I believe the world is controlled chaos, and therefor it always changes and we adapt, that is why I think there is a possible reality to them seceding. Just saying.

Zyrokin

Yeah I never said it was impossible but the current circumstnaces? Heck no! In the current situation there is no way in hell Texas could ever secede.. Let alone survive.. And I am mainly going after your claim the fact you actually think it will be better then it is now.. I mean really? If anything it wil get worse seeing as based upon Texas adminstration, it probably wouldn't be secular anymore.. Not to mention the other obvious points I mentioned.. Texas is very much like a body part of yours such as a leg.. Its extremely important and is specialized to help you move.. But if it seceded, it wouldn't survive due to depending off numerous functions of organ and other body parts to survive.. Take for instance my home state Michigan.. One of our big industries is the auto industry.. But where do they get the parts and resources for it? Other states.. From the steel, to the numerous electronics.. But we have farms we could support our selves! Nope infact most of the farm equipment and fertilizer often times is made out state.. The economy doesn't like it does in the 1800s.. If China collapsed as a nation, the United States will be feeling it..

[QUOTE="Zyrokin"]

Sub- We are not going to agree on this. All I know is that it is possible given the right circumstances. I believe the world is controlled chaos, and therefor it always changes and we adapt, that is why I think there is a possible reality to them seceding. Just saying.

sSubZerOo

Yeah I never said it was impossible but the current circumstnaces? Heck no! In the current situation there is no way in hell Texas could ever secede.. Let alone survive.. And I am mainly going after your claim the fact you actually think it will be better then it is now.. I mean really? If anything it wil get worse seeing as based upon Texas adminstration, it probably wouldn't be secular anymore.. Not to mention the other obvious points I mentioned.. Texas is very much like a body part of yours such as a leg.. Its extremely important and is specialized to help you move.. But if it seceded, it wouldn't survive due to depending off numerous functions of organ and other body parts to survive.. Take for instance my home state Michigan.. One of our big industries is the auto industry.. But where do they get the parts and resources for it? Other states.. From the steel, to the numerous electronics.. But we have farms we could support our selves! Nope infact most of the farm equipment and fertilizer often times is made out state.. The economy doesn't like it does in the 1800s.. If China collapsed as a nation, the United States will be feeling it..

HUGE assumption. Major economic barriers are imposed between Texas and the U.S. following the secession. There are far too many variables too even begin to predict either way on that. It would not be in the interests of the U.S. to cut itself off from it's second largest state. In a similar way to how the U.S. would feel the loss of China, it would also feel the loss of Texas.

[QUOTE="Zyrokin"]

Sub- We are not going to agree on this. All I know is that it is possible given the right circumstances. I believe the world is controlled chaos, and therefor it always changes and we adapt, that is why I think there is a possible reality to them seceding. Just saying.

sSubZerOo

Yeah I never said it was impossible but the current circumstnaces? Heck no! In the current situation there is no way in hell Texas could ever secede.. Let alone survive.. And I am mainly going after your claim the fact you actually think it will be better then it is now.. I mean really? If anything it wil get worse seeing as based upon Texas adminstration, it probably wouldn't be secular anymore.. Not to mention the other obvious points I mentioned.. Texas is very much like a body part of yours such as a leg.. Its extremely important and is specialized to help you move.. But if it seceded, it wouldn't survive due to depending off numerous functions of organ and other body parts to survive.. Take for instance my home state Michigan.. One of our big industries is the auto industry.. But where do they get the parts and resources for it? Other states.. From the steel, to the numerous electronics.. But we have farms we could support our selves! Nope infact most of the farm equipment and fertilizer often times is made out state.. The economy doesn't like it does in the 1800s.. If China collapsed as a nation, the United States will be feeling it..

This is all hypothetical, but there are many possibilities that could happen that you don't think are reality. I'm just looking at what has happened through history. Things change, countries change, little things spark separation, people adapt, etc... Our world is very global, and I can guarantee you that the whole world would get involved if the US and Texas got a bloody divorce. Some countries would side with US, and others Texas. This could lead to a World War again and I don't think any of us want that. There are so many factors in play here, but the fact remains, when man is pushed too far, they revolutionize. It could be a rather mild change and a simple split. Texas loves their state, and if the government keeps taking away more and more state rights, I'm thinking that Texas won't be alone in their feelings. Leading as many cultures as their are in the US is difficult, and what applies to you doesn't apply to me. The Federal Government likes their power and people are trying to give them more power. So, I could see just about anything happening, who knows what the future might hold. Maybe a Republic of the World? Just takes one small act to spur change.

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="Sajo7"] The drug cartels would overrun them within the week.Sajo7

Not really.. texans are armed to the teeth..

And? Authorities tip toe around the situation alot, texans would just execute them all.

Most of you who aren't from Texas may not know this, but Texas is the only state that CAN legally secede from the Union. It would be completely illegal for the federal government to start a war over it.UT_Wrestler

Any group of people CAN survive on their own...it is arrogant to say otherwise. The question becomes what standard of living that group of people is willing to accept in exchange for 'freedom'rawsavon

Texas ftw.

Texas could make it, and if it was for a good reason, other states would support.