If there is no God then how come there's music like this?

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alphamale1989

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#1 alphamale1989
Member since 2008 • 3134 Posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6g5X2hGab0 (My college choir is performing that piece at orchestra hall in Minneapolis)

When I hear music like that I feel that there must be a god somewhere...

Can anyone else relate to that? Have you ever beheld something that just takes your breath away, and it sort of makes you think?

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USSJAndrew

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#2 USSJAndrew
Member since 2004 • 5042 Posts

No. It doesn't make me too happy.

 

It pretty much reminds me there isn't one.

 

Sorry for the conflicting opinion. 

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espoac

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#3 espoac
Member since 2005 • 4346 Posts
That certainly is beautiful but why attribute it to a higher power? Are we humans not intelligent, special or good enough to create it on our own? I think we are.
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R0cky_Racc00n

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#4 R0cky_Racc00n
Member since 2006 • 5088 Posts
No, i just think that the song was very good and the people that did it had talent because they "practiced". Even if there was a God, he wouldn't have anything to do with the song.
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deactivated-5a79221380856

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#5 deactivated-5a79221380856
Member since 2007 • 13125 Posts
What is up with these threads that try to prove a god through the most illogical and most irrelevant means necessary? I'm sorry, but it ultimately boils down to perception. Either you see the glass of water with a designer or without. It's either half-full or half-empty. It matters not.
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CodingGenius

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#6 CodingGenius
Member since 2004 • 8118 Posts
I think it's great that you've found music you like, and I know that some music moves me incredibly. However, the counter argument to that proving God is how can there be a benevolent God that allowed the genocide in Rwanda to happen?
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JML897

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#7 JML897
Member since 2004 • 33134 Posts
Would God have allowed this to exist, though?
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deactivated-5a79221380856

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#8 deactivated-5a79221380856
Member since 2007 • 13125 Posts
"I do not see how it is possible for an intelligent human being to conclude that the Song of Solomon is the work of God, and that the tragedy of Lear was the work of an uninspired man." -John Adams
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bededog

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#9 bededog
Member since 2005 • 8579 Posts
That certainly is beautiful but why attribute it to a higher power? Are we humans not intelligent, special or good enough to create it on our own? I think we are.espoac
Exactly. Is it not a more wonderful thing to realize that humans have the power to do beautiful things from their own intelligence and not attribute it to some fanatical metaphysical being?
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EMOEVOLUTION

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#10 EMOEVOLUTION
Member since 2008 • 8998 Posts
Not buying it.
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SavageM2

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#11 SavageM2
Member since 2005 • 10800 Posts
It actually makes me sad...:?
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espoac

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#12 espoac
Member since 2005 • 4346 Posts
[QUOTE="espoac"]That certainly is beautiful but why attribute it to a higher power? Are we humans not intelligent, special or good enough to create it on our own? I think we are.bededog
Exactly. Is it not a more wonderful thing to realize that humans have the power to do beautiful things from their own intelligence and not attribute it to some fanatical metaphysical being?

The biggest difference between religion and a humanist atheist perspective is this: in humanism we are responsible for all things, good and bad. But in religion (at least most of them) only humans are responsible for evil and all goodness is attributed to a God. And as such I'm really left wondering why people find atheism to be depressing. I think it's uplifting.
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tbone29

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#13 tbone29
Member since 2004 • 5552 Posts

Would God have allowed this to exist, though?JML897

Maybe Soulja Boy prayed for easy money?

 

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Hewkii

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#15 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts

Would God have allowed this to exist, though?JML897

yes, but not this.

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SavageM2

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#16 SavageM2
Member since 2005 • 10800 Posts

[QUOTE="JML897"]Would God have allowed this to exist, though?Hewkii

yes, but not this.

Oh..God..No.. That was horrible. Truly horrible. I wonder if she even knew the lyrics...?

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-Jiggles-

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#17 -Jiggles-
Member since 2008 • 4356 Posts
This is not proof to whether the Christian god exists or not. It is simply music--thing more, nothing less.
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R0cky_Racc00n

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#18 R0cky_Racc00n
Member since 2006 • 5088 Posts

[QUOTE="JML897"]Would God have allowed this to exist, though?Hewkii

yes, but not this.

That slideshow was funny at the begginning, then it got stale.
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UnrighteousFury

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#19 UnrighteousFury
Member since 2008 • 2764 Posts

"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph: THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD WAS MUSIC"

I think Vonnegut had the right idea.

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jimmyjammer69

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#20 jimmyjammer69
Member since 2008 • 12239 Posts
Sure, it's a moving piece. On a side note, it's composer, Camille Saint-Saens, was an atheist.
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sAndroid17

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#21 sAndroid17
Member since 2005 • 8715 Posts

hahahaha, NO. 

it just makes me think of a bunch of talented people who practised there buts off, to get that good at playing singing and writing.

GOD has nothing to do with it. and it doesn't make me think he exists in the slightest.

this is possibly the stupidest way to prove god exists i have ever read on OT 

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LikeHaterade

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#22 LikeHaterade
Member since 2007 • 10645 Posts

What is up with these threads that try to prove a god through the most illogical and most irrelevant means necessary? I'm sorry, but it ultimately boils down to perception. Either you see the glass of water with a designer or without. It's either half-full or half-empty. It matters not.Genetic_Code

It didn't seem like the TC was trying to prove anything... 

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gbpman630

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#23 gbpman630
Member since 2003 • 2795 Posts

"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph: THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD WAS MUSIC"

I think Vonnegut had the right idea.

UnrighteousFury
He was an atheist, though....
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sAndroid17

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#24 sAndroid17
Member since 2005 • 8715 Posts

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]What is up with these threads that try to prove a god through the most illogical and most irrelevant means necessary? I'm sorry, but it ultimately boils down to perception. Either you see the glass of water with a designer or without. It's either half-full or half-empty. It matters not.LikeHaterade

It didn't seem like the TC was trying to prove anything... 

topic title?
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DJSAV_101

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#25 DJSAV_101
Member since 2008 • 3701 Posts

[QUOTE="JML897"]Would God have allowed this to exist, though?Hewkii

yes, but not this.

that makes children cry.

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LikeHaterade

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#26 LikeHaterade
Member since 2007 • 10645 Posts
[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]What is up with these threads that try to prove a god through the most illogical and most irrelevant means necessary? I'm sorry, but it ultimately boils down to perception. Either you see the glass of water with a designer or without. It's either half-full or half-empty. It matters not.sAndroid17

It didn't seem like the TC was trying to prove anything... 

topic title?

It didn't say "proof" that God exists. It coincided with the message within the topic. That's what I got out of it anyway. 

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UnrighteousFury

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#27 UnrighteousFury
Member since 2008 • 2764 Posts
[QUOTE="UnrighteousFury"]

"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph: THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD WAS MUSIC"

I think Vonnegut had the right idea.

gbpman630

He was an atheist, though....

True. I think that quote has less to do with religion and more to do with the power behind music, but I saw the thread title and had to use it.

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OfficialBed

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#28 OfficialBed
Member since 2005 • 17668 Posts
sure...it sounds nice
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stevenk4k5

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#29 stevenk4k5
Member since 2005 • 5608 Posts

So because some people can sing a song then there must be a God?  Er... quite the logic. :?

 

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alphamale1989

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#30 alphamale1989
Member since 2008 • 3134 Posts
[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]What is up with these threads that try to prove a god through the most illogical and most irrelevant means necessary? I'm sorry, but it ultimately boils down to perception. Either you see the glass of water with a designer or without. It's either half-full or half-empty. It matters not.sAndroid17

It didn't seem like the TC was trying to prove anything...

topic title?

In retrospect I probably should have chosen a less provoking topic title. It took the topic in a different direction than I intended. The actual post I made was more just a thought I was looking for opinions on (and I admit I wanted an excuse to show off that song).

I don't consider music to be actual proof of Gods existence. That said, the very concept of 'music' and the emotions it can provoke is something that I choose to credit to God, and personally I don't see how an appriciation for music could have just 'evolved'.

The only proof of Gods existence is either when you die, or if He makes Himself real to you.

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btaylor2404

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#31 btaylor2404
Member since 2003 • 11353 Posts
Yeah I've heard music that made me feel great and all, but no God there. Sorry miss the correlation.
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pianist

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#32 pianist
Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6g5X2hGab0 (My college choir is performing that piece at orchestra hall in Minneapolis)

When I hear music like that I feel that there must be a god somewhere...

Can anyone else relate to that? Have you ever beheld something that just takes your breath away, and it sort of makes you think?

alphamale1989

Because there are gifted musical composers.  It in no way proves there's a deity.  If humans exist, music can exist. But I completely understand having your 'breath taken away' by beautiful music.

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pianist

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#33 pianist
Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

Sure, it's a moving piece. On a side note, it's composer, Camille Saint-Saens, was an atheist.jimmyjammer69

Saint-Saens?  I think this is a Lloyd Weber work... from his Requiem.  Could be wrong, though.  I don't know Weber or Saint-Saens's repertoire that well.

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btaylor2404

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#34 btaylor2404
Member since 2003 • 11353 Posts

[QUOTE="jimmyjammer69"]Sure, it's a moving piece. On a side note, it's composer, Camille Saint-Saens, was an atheist.pianist

Saint-Saens?  I think this is a Lloyd Weber work... from his Requiem.  Could be wrong, though.  I don't know Weber or Saint-Saens's repertoire that well.

Trust the Pianist.  I have no clue, but I'd bet he's right.

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Acemaster27

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#35 Acemaster27
Member since 2004 • 4482 Posts

That certainly is beautiful but why attribute it to a higher power? Are we humans not intelligent, special or good enough to create it on our own? I think we are.espoac

It's not that we humans aren't capable of creating really good music on our own, its the idea of really good music. Where does that come from? What separates different slightly oscillating waves of air pressure into annoying sound, bad music, and good music? Where do theses ideas come from. And all cultures around the world have developed their own kind of music (as they have their own morals and ideals of good and evil), but how can this idea of good music and bad music exist on its own?

This idea of good and bad music is in everyone and every culture so much that people assume that it exists outside the self. And it exists outside the self, then there must be something greater than us capable of creating the idea of good and bad  and giving it to us.

So the only way you can argue with my statements is to try and either argue that that no music is good (or bad), or else that somehow human all over the world have evolved the same idea of good and bad music on their own. To make your argument convincing you are going to have to figure out how music appreciation and composition fits into survival of the fittest.

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HAL5000

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#36 HAL5000
Member since 2005 • 99 Posts
Well.........it reminds me that I need to stay away from the catholic church esp. with all the weird crap going on behind closed doors. Hearing that doesn't bring me closer to God or even comes close. Playing Dead space and running out of ammo does a better job at that....
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pianist

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#37 pianist
Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

So the only way you can argue with my statements is to try and either argue that that no music is good (or bad), or else that somehow human all over the world have evolved the same idea of good and bad music on their own. To make your argument convincing you are going to have to figure out how music appreciation and composition fits into survival of the fittest.

Acemaster27

The problem is this - not everybody likes the same music.  What is beautiful to some is boring to others.  And as you mention, people tend to be most easily drawn to the music of their own culture - or that which at least resembles the music from their own culture.

If we were created by a deity, it stands to reason that we would have much more similar concepts of what constitutes good music.  It would be an absolute, in the same way that religious morality tends to be absolute (i.e. something is either right or it is wrong, according to what God thinks of it).

As for why we like music at all... you could ask the same question about why we like anything that we do.  Music is ordered sound.  Our brains like order, whether it be a clean room, math, rhythm, or logic.  We're naturally fascinated with order.  And not surprisingly, our ability to reason and order is one of our chief strengths as a species... and a BIG reason why we were able to survive given all our other natural weaknesses in comparison to other animals.

Those who wish to prove God is behind great music must first prove that God exists at all.  Something which does not exist can not be behind great music.  Humans can.  And it's really quite interesting that very few of them claim they were taking dictation from God.  They were actually quite proud of their own work.  I can say that with experience, since I compose, too.  There's no God there telling me what notes to write - it's my own reasoning and work that results in the final product.

And for the record, music can't be 'good' or 'bad' as those are subjective labels.  We can, however, distinguish between well-crafted music and music which is poorly crafted, just as we can distinguish between music which is complex and music which is simplistic.  That's nothing special.  Again... our capacity for reason is more than enough to make such distinctions.

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Acemaster27

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#38 Acemaster27
Member since 2004 • 4482 Posts
[QUOTE="Acemaster27"]

So the only way you can argue with my statements is to try and either argue that that no music is good (or bad), or else that somehow human all over the world have evolved the same idea of good and bad music on their own. To make your argument convincing you are going to have to figure out how music appreciation and composition fits into survival of the fittest.

pianist

The problem is this - not everybody likes the same music.  What is beautiful to some is boring to others.  And as you mention, people tend to be most easily drawn to the music of their own culture - or that which at least resembles the music from their own culture.

If we were created by a deity, it stands to reason that we would have much more similar concepts of what constitutes good music.  It would be an absolute, in the same way that religious morality tends to be absolute (i.e. something is either right or it is wrong, according to what God thinks of it).

As for why we like music at all... you could ask the same question about why we like anything that we do.  Music is ordered sound.  Our brains like order, whether it be a clean room, math, rhythm, or logic.  We're naturally facinated with order.  And not surprisingly, our ability to reason and order is one of our chief strengths as a species... and a BIG reason why we were able to survive given all our other natural weaknesses in comparison to other animals.

Those who wish to prove God is behind great music must first prove that God exists at all.  Something which does not exist can not be behind great music.  Humans can.  And it's really quite interesting that very few of them claim they were taking dictation from God.  They were actually quite proud of their own work.  I can say that with experience, since I compose, too.  There's no God there telling me what notes to write - it's my own reasoning and work that results in the final product.

There are some absolutes about music. Out of tune music is bad. Period. You can listen to music from another culture and not just enjoy it, but also think of it as very good.

I'm not arguing that good music came from God. I'm arguing that God created such crazy things as the idea of good and bad music. That doesn't mean that everyone is going to like the same kind of music. God created everyone to be a little bit diffferent and unique, however, there are general ideas about good and bad music that most people share. When God set the Homo sapiens apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, one thing he gave us was ideas of good and bad. Different groups of people created different kinds of music, but every group created their own and kept progressing music that they felt was good. 

Music does not come from God. Composers don't listen for God to just come down and tell them what to write. I never argued that, nor would I. What I am arguing is that the very idea of good and bad music was given to us by God. Then we make what we can with it. Good composers are can produce good music, and good musicians can play good music. Since the idea of good and bad music exists in every culture (remember that music is just organized sound, which is just waves varying amounts of air pressure) then this idea must have come from somewhere. I am suggesting that the idea came from a higher power. If you have some other reasonable explanation I would like to hear it.

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pianist

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#39 pianist
Member since 2003 • 18900 Posts

There are some absolutes about music. Out of tune music is bad. Period. You can listen to music from another culture and not just enjoy it, but also think of it as very good.

Then how do you explain ethnic Asian music which employs microtones?  It sounds horribly out of tune to Western ears.  Asians like it and have been writing it for centuries.

I'm not arguing that good music came from God. I'm arguing that God created such crazy things as the idea of good and bad music. That doesn't mean that everyone is going to like the same kind of music. God created everyone to be a little bit diffferent and unique, however, there are general ideas about good and bad music that most people share. When God set the Homo sapiens apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, one thing he gave us was ideas of good and bad. Different groups of people created different kinds of music, but every group created their own and kept progressing music that they felt was good. 

Except there is no good or bad music.  Again... subjective labels.  I think Brahms is good music.  Lots of people hate Brahms... including people who know a great deal about music.  I hate 50 cent.  Apparently, millions of people think he's a great musician.   That's not 'a little bit different,' dude.  We're talking about EXTREME differences in the approach to music, and I maintain that the differences are the result of the creative process undertaken by the individual artists and their individual skill.  I like Brahms because he writes complex music, and that is precisely why many people feel his music is boring.

Again, the fact that different cultures developed very different kinds of music is more an argument against the existence of God than it is for God if your point is that people have the same idea of what constitutes good or bad music.  

Music does not come from God. Composers don't listen for God to just come down and tell them what to write. I never argued that, nor would I. What I am arguing is that the very idea of good and bad music was given to us by God. Then we make what we can with it. Good composers are can produce good music, and good musicians can play good music. Since the idea of good and bad music exists in every culture (remember that music is just organized sound, which is just waves varying amounts of air pressure) then this idea must have come from somewhere. I am suggesting that the idea came from a higher power. If you have some other reasonable explanation I would like to hear it.

But music is not 'good' or 'bad.'  I hate 50 cent.  But I can't say his music is 'bad.'  I can just say it's unsophisticated, which it is.  But clearly, it's great music for a lot of people.  The idea of good and bad music is entirely a personal issue, not a societal one.  A lot of people may like a certain kind of music, but you can't say an entire SOCIETY thinks one type of music is good and another is bad.  I dislike most of the music that most of the people in my society love.  And that didn't come from a higher power.  It came from my training and background... just as people like the music they like because of their background (and training, if applicable).  Ever wonder why people tend to identify most with music they heard as children and teens?  Ever wonder why people of advanced years have more trouble accepting new kinds of music?

Different cultures respond differently to music.  The only real universal link between all cultures is an affinity for rhythm.  It is inherent to all music of all cultures.  It is supported by dance, which is known to exist in all cultures.  And it is the most obvious thing that makes music ordered by comparison to sound which is not ordered.  Our brains like order in any form, because we can understand order better than we can understand disorder.  And our survival depended very much on our sense of order.  That's the plain truth of it.  No deities required.  This, of course, is not a refutation of God, but rather a refutation of the claim that music is in any way connected to God, or that our appreciation of it requires God.

Acemaster27
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TSNAKE617

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#40 TSNAKE617
Member since 2008 • 5494 Posts

[QUOTE="JML897"]Would God have allowed this to exist, though?tbone29

Maybe Soulja Boy prayed for easy money?

 

I hate that song. Why did you make me hear it!!!   

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linkinpark494

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#41 linkinpark494
Member since 2007 • 466 Posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6g5X2hGab0 (My college choir is performing that piece at orchestra hall in Minneapolis)

When I hear music like that I feel that there must be a god somewhere...

Can anyone else relate to that? Have you ever beheld something that just takes your breath away, and it sort of makes you think?

alphamale1989

Then explain this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3G2BQVrcOs

(Not a bad song like his others. This one was in San Andreas.)

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123625

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#42 123625
Member since 2006 • 9035 Posts
I can't watch the video right now, but whenever I do hear beautiful music it does give me the sense of God out there, and gives me great pleasure.
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Hewkii

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#43 Hewkii
Member since 2006 • 26339 Posts

There are some absolutes about music. Out of tune music is bad. Period.Acemaster27

ever heard Dylan?

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DeeJayInphinity

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#44 DeeJayInphinity
Member since 2004 • 13415 Posts
Wow, I had actually never seen this argument out in the wild. I've herd other people say that they've herd other people say that they have herd someone use it, but I've never experienced it myself. This is groundbreaking for me!!
"Or, more ignobly, perhaps it's a sort of jealousy of genius. How dare another human being make such beautiful music/poetry/art, when I can't? It must be God that did it."
--Richard Dawkins,
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Funky_Llama

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#45 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
That argument doesn't make sense. >_>
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Funky_Llama

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#46 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
Wow, I had actually never seen this argument out in the wild. I've herd other people say that they've herd other people say that they have herd someone use it, but I've never experienced it myself. This is groundbreaking for me!!
"Or, more ignobly, perhaps it's a sort of jealousy of genius. How dare another human being make such beautiful music/poetry/art, when I can't? It must be God that did it."
--Richard Dawkins,DeeJayInphinity
Indeed. I do believe we've sighted the rare striped musical non-sequitur.
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GeForce2187

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#47 GeForce2187
Member since 2006 • 2963 Posts
This reminds me of at my work, theres always this one church chior singer who comes to my line and is singing the whole time. Its really annoying. The first time he came I thought he was joking around I was thinking of "don't quit the day job" but then he had the shirt on saying he was in the church chior and so I guess that is his day job.
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SaintLeonidas

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#48 SaintLeonidas
Member since 2006 • 26735 Posts
Pretty sad when people cant even contribute great talent/art to humans, it has to be some divine being....here's a thought, have a little faith in your fellow man. Is it so hard to believe humans can do great things on their own?
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HardQuor

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#49 HardQuor
Member since 2007 • 1282 Posts

The biggest difference between religion and a humanist atheist perspective is this: in humanism we are responsible for all things, good and bad. But in religion (at least most of them) only humans are responsible for evil and all goodness is attributed to a God. And as such I'm really left wondering why people find atheism to be depressing. I think it's uplifting.espoac

If my sig weren't already cluttered, i'd quote you in it. It's the thought that counts. promise :P

On-topic: Isn't it a Christian idea, stated in Psalms, that all music comes from god, and thus any music that doesn't praise him is a slight against him?

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11Marcel

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#50 11Marcel
Member since 2004 • 7241 Posts
[QUOTE="tbone29"]

[QUOTE="JML897"]Would God have allowed this to exist, though?TSNAKE617

Maybe Soulja Boy prayed for easy money?

 

I hate that song. Why did you make me hear it!!!   

Wow.... I don't live in the USA, so I was never forced to hear it, and judging from everyone, I didn't want to hear it. Just now, I saw the link and thought "how bad could it be?". That was the most worthless music I've ever heard. Well, ok. Second to Avril lavigne's cover of chop suey of course.Â