Is piracy/torrenting unethical?

@bulby_g: And what about something that is not buyable in stores anymore, like a really old movie?

Yeah I guess that's a bit more of a grey area but I can't say I've ever had the problem. In the end though nobody has the right to own it so if they can't get it, tough turds I suppose. I think at that point though I personally wouldn't give a crap.

TBH I've had music released myself and if someone isn't inclined to buy their music I'd still be happy they enjoyed it enough to DL it from somewhere. Plus if they tell people about it one of them might buy it through official channels. That's just me though and people shouldn't assume they have the right to own anything they want.

@KHAndAnime I agree that we should be able to test-play a completed game before buying it too, or at least be able to return it. Mainstream retailers, to my knowledge, don't let you return games just because you took off the plastic from the case. O_O And if you get a $60 game from GameStop and return it, have fun getting only $6 back. O_______________________________________O

And demos aren't really reliable because that's only a small portion of the game, and it's not even a part of the finished game either. :(

it's not stealing, it's sharing with all your friends, present, past and future

Entitled much?

I dont see piracy being any worse than buying secondhand games. The end result is the same, the creator gets no money. That being said I also think its ridiculous how far some people go to get access to some really old media like movies or games, even buying old consoles just to be able to play 1 game. It makes no difference if you buy it or pirate it, the creator once again gets no money.

Not anything just anything that can be stored in the form of digital files. Unless we get that teleportation thing worked out, then omg sooooo much petty crime is going to happen. It will be awesome.

Or I suppose when more people finally own a 3d printer, then we could potentially pirate anything.

Sarcasm?

It's unethical for sure. Stealing/piracy/whatever is considered wrong by most members of society because people want to be payed when someone uses their product.

No. There is no right to demo anything.

Sorry, but I think developers who release unfinished games (and day one DLC for that matter) are screwing people over. They either fucking test the game until it functions properly or they don't release it at all. Day one DLC is a rip off too because devs are then just trying to make even more money off something they could have put in the vanilla game.

And there's nothing entitled about wanting to return a game either. Unfortunately, retailers just say, "Well, you took off the plastic, so tough shit". And don't get me started on GameStop.

I'm curious - to you, what exactly grants games developers and publishers immunity from fair business practice? I'm speaking ethically, not legally. You're essentially saying businesses have a right to steal if they have the right to sell people an nonreturnable product that may or may not be broken. If you buy a game that doesn't work with your specific set of PC hardware, for example, and you didn't use Origin - you're absolutely shit out of luck. That sounds ethical to you? If so, to me it sounds like you have a crooked idea of ethics.

For everything else in the world, we have guarantees (promising our money back if the item doesn't live up to expectations) and/or usually the ability to fully examine and test before buying; expensive speakers, expensive monitors, PC hardware, cars, houses, instruments, shoes, clothes, etc. - need I go on? It doesn't make a ton of sense that games are exempt from the usual consumer rights that we expect. It's not like we're in an age with no copy-protection, you can't just buy a PS4 game, copy it, and play it on your own system.

Sure, they have the legal right, no arguing there - but if the majority of people here on the internet respected their legal rights and agreed that their business practices are ethical, perhaps piracy wouldn't even exist and it would be a lot more stigmatized than it really is. Sometimes it's not always about getting free shit. Sometimes cracked versions of games work better than the real versions - I've lost count of how many times I had to illegally download a game I own and have paid for because I was getting ridiculous DRM issues.

Please. I understand that some publishers are dirt bags, but that doesn't mean I will condone torreting because of that.

There is no right to demo.

It's stealing, it's wrong, it's certainly unethical. Piracy is stealing.

That friend's justification is downright pathetic and very old way to justify stealing. Borrowing is not wrong nor has it been wrong/unethical for centuries.

Lending =/= Stealing.

I'm disappointed with modern day parenting but maybe it's just people want to believe the lies they tell themselves daily.

There is no right to legitimate consumer rights? lol.

Do you not understand why everything else in the world is sold with a guarantee and money-back policies?

I mean - I'm not saying anyone should condone illegal torrenting. But I think the existence of piracy is completely justified. Which means I just think it's difficult to condone the business practices that exist in the gaming industry. People shouldn't have to worry about getting ripped off - there's no justifiable reason. But it happens *all the time*. There are numerous ways that things can be pirated and torrented in an ethical manner that would only be beneficial to everyone, so it's difficult to say people who pirate things are automatically dirt bags.

People who pirate everything, never buy anything, share everything they can get their hands on, etc. - yea those people are dirt bags, but that's not every pirate out there. I'm not trying to justify all piracy, I'm just saying it's not entirely worth condemning. To a degree, it can have a positive effect on the industry by letting people support good game development while punishing poor game development. I'd encourage as much transparency as possible when it comes to buying and sell products, whether they're digital or physical. I just wish people didn't have to pirate games to figure out if they're actually working as advertised and worth the money.

Wonder if he's just trolling us.

So torreting is now a consumer right?

I think you're approaching this wrong. If both sides could profit from having access to a product before buying it, then nobody looses, right?

Car dealerships offer test drives on that logic alone because it has been shown to increase sales. People are more comfortable having actually used said product before buying it, and the cost of increasing the sale of a five digit car far outweighs the cons of a measly tank of gas.

And this is coming from someone who may or may not procure a lot of stuff and may or may not do it with the intention to "demoing" stuff.

I'm not against publisher providing demos to the public. Or taking them to task for putting out broken unworkable stuff. Or against the possibility of having the opportunity that if the game is broken for the consumer to take it back for a refund.

But I'm not making the Indiana Jones jump that somehow torreting is a consumer right.

@Master_Live: wait wtf? I think I'm going blind, I thought you were responding to gamerguru100. I meant to comment on that string of posts.

LOL

First sale doctrine allows you the right to lend or sell the game to anyone of your choosing. When you pirate/torrent off someone, you didn't pay for the copy, thus you have no rights. It's ethically wrong.

That's actually a sort of fair point, but I'd like to point out that there's a big difference between "this game is broken" and "I just don't like this game." If all pirates restricted their non-payment to games that were literally defective, then I don't think that piracy would have as much of a stigma against it. But we know that's not the case. People routinely pirate MOVIES and MUSIC. And with those things, it's a lot more rare to argue that it's actually broken. Sure, the movie or song might SUCK, but how often is it that you go to the movie theater and the projector stops working halfway through the movie? How often does a DVD or Blu-Ray disc just stop playing the movie (in new condition, not after you've beaten it up)? You could maybe make this argument with GAMES being commonly "broken". But movies and music are overwhelmingly presented in ways that at least ensure that it works and "isn't broken", and people STILL pirate the hell out of them.

So yeah, I agree...it isn't ALWAYS about getting free shit. But can we agree that a hell of a lot of the time it is PRECISELY about getting free shit?

Is it ACTUALLY the case that "everything else in the world is sold with a guarantee and money-back policies?"

And if so, what are the TERMS of those money-back policies? As in, is a tomato vendor legally or ethically obligated to give you your money back if the tomatoes that he sells to you are rotten or smashed? If so, is that same tomato vendor in ANY way obligated to give you your money back if he provided perfect tomatoes and you just plain don't like tomatoes? If "everything else in the world" has "a guarantee and money-back policies", then can we at least agree that the actual TERMS of the money-back policy are often extremely limited in scope?

And also, is "all sales final" not actually a thing? Because I could have sworn that I've seen things (other than video games) being sold with an "all sales final" disclaimer. Was I just imagining that? Was that just something that I saw in a dream?

It's not illegal torrenting if you have a cable TV but living in a strict moslem world full of censorship (like nude scenes, vulgarity, puffing cigarettes, skimpy cloth or same sex kissing)

If others do it, it's way below my ethics threshold called "giving a single ****". There are plenty of advantages to pirating - you make a risk-free time investment and if you don't think the game is worth your time or money you just drop the game and that's it. If you paid for it upfront and you didn't like it you'd feel ripped off because you couldn't just un-buy it at the press of a button and assuming that you COULD get a refund you'd still have to go through lengths to get it.

If on the other hand you already know what you're putting down your money for that's the best move you can make, because it is a fully informed decision.

As far as I am concerned, I'll just say that I always pay for games when I think their price is worth it, even if I'm not planning to play them again anytime soon.

This entire situation has definitely come about from the anti-consumer practices of developers and publishers. I don't think that justifies illegally downloading a product in the end, though.

Yeah, I'm of a similar mindset. I actually deal in IP (software developer) and for years I was a huge advocate of copyright protections. I suppose in some ways I still am, but....

I saw the attempts to eliminate our free use rights, our education rights, and the attempts to hamstring open source efforts, and it became clear that many of the industry forces aren't playing the same game.

That's exactly right, and it's the reason that purchasing a used game is not the same as piracy.

I've always wondered why it's fine for Youtube to host tens of thousands of unauthorized music albums and how it's fine to listen to those albums for free but if you download an album on a different website then it's suddenly wrong.

i pay for hbo. I don't feel bad for torrenting those 4 leaked episodes of game of thrones

You don't actually possess the songs when you're listening to them on youtube. A user is just letting you listen to it. When you download an album, those sound files are actually in your possession.

Piracy is indeed unethical.

That sounds incredibly arbitrary to me.

Not to mention, by that logic I assume it's perfectly fine for me to stream the new Game of Thrones episodes as long as I don't download them onto my HDD?

I have no idea. I'm not a copyrights expert. I was just pointing out the difference between watching a video on youtube and illegally downloading a file.

Its only illegal if you get caught ;3

I don't really care much about pirating/torrenting and is not really on my agenda on being something very wrong and illegal. Besides, some companies deserve it (of having some stuff pirated) considering some companies are doing more illegal/disgusting activities than the piraters/torrenters.

@Toph_Girl250: Two wrongs don't make a right

Ignoring the legal side of things (which is pretty clear-cut)...

I believe that the producers of an entertainment product have the right to distribute that product as they wish (with consumer protections and whatnot applying, of course). The public does nothave a default right to those products, but can gain that right via the methods authorised by the producers.

Piracy is the unauthorised downloading of those products. Piracy is a violation of their rights, and thus piracy is unethical in all but exceptional circumstances (such as...I don't know, suffering from cancer or something).

Oh, and this applies even if the publishers are themselves unethical. If you hate EA or Ubisoft or whatever, that doesn't entitle you to use their products for free. Just avoid them, wait for them to reform, or wait for prices to drop to a point where you are happy buying it.

^Oh please you sound like a corporate yes man, violating their rights don't make me laugh, like certain companies out there aren't finding sneaky/shady ways to violate consumer/citizen rights, in worse ways, oh wait...

See, here's the thing:you have a right to not buy the content, but you do not have a right to have access to the content. If you really think that a company is violating consumer rights, then you have the right to boycott that company and then just plain not get to hear/watch/play the content.

And that's my problem with this argument. You can talk all day about rights, but the second that you act like you have a right to that content, you've just reduced the CREATORS of that content to fucking NOTHING.

Me? I like to show a little bit more fucking respect to the people who create the content that I enjoy.

You sound even WORSE than the corporate yes man, because at least the corporate yes man will convince the artist to sign a contract before acting like he has a right to that artist's work. With (a hell of a lot of piracy), it's more like, "you artists INHERENTLY owe me access to your shit, then MAYBE I'll pay you if I fucking like it. Dance for me, work monkey, because I fucking own you and you are nothing!"

That's enough internet for today, please go to bed, you're hallucinating.

Well it is highly illegal. Ethically it is relative. The thing is that most corporations do not spend their resources prosecuting because so many do it.