Is the Confederate flag racist?

My point has been that without slavery, you have no civil war. The other factors alone would have been insuffcient to cause the schism; in short slavery was the CENTRAL issue, not the only issue. I posted earlier about revisionism, and how the myth of a north going out to on a moral crusade was pure bull. I can quote that now if you like? You're accusing me of position I explicity rejected pages ago, and of omitting points I included... pages ago. If you want to continue in this vein, I'm going to start quoting those posts instead of formulating new responses, which is NOT something I would normally want to do with you.

I respect your intelligence and education, but this is getting to a point where I'm willing to overlook that in this limited case. I had hoped the point about "Rhetoric" would have been illustrative... it seems not. By the way, did you know that a "rhetorical question" is a noun that has an origin a few hundred years LATER than the word "Rhetoric"?Frame_Dragger

I did not accuse you of saying anything about the norths morality. I merely stated the north didn't do what it do for moral reasons. It seems you assume because I speak of events in the 1860s I'm attributing that to you. That is not true.:|

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]The Scottish flag I provided isn't the official flag. It's a Scottish banner that dates to the early 1300s.

Scotland is a region of the UK. There is Scottish pride just like there is Southern pride in the U.S.

Are you now arguing southern heritage and pride doesn't exist?

KC_Hokie

As for Southern pride, I'm not arguing AGAINST it or FOR it... I've been asking for pages what that phrase MEANS. Pride in WHAT? What heritage? What does this flag represent that is not already under the aegis of the American Flag?! To quote myself from earlier (because I can see that one way or another, I might as well get used to that now, rather than retype old points and arguments):

Heritage and pride exist all across the world. Are you saying a group of people are required to have their own coutry in order to fly a flag of heritage and pride?

Are you pulling my leg? Is this some kind of trolling/joke and I'm just not getting it? Scotland is a non-sovereign entity that forms one of the four countries of the Unitied Kingom. If you want to get technical it's considered a Kingdom consisting of a devolved government under an existing monarchy, or to quote the first sentence (with multiple included citations) from Wikipedia:

Scotland... is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.[8][9][10]Wikipedia

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Scotland can have a dozen flags... it is, in addition to being part of the UK, a country in its own right. If you don't beleive me, use this miracle of the internet and check. Their symbols are actual national symbols; that is, symbols belonging to an existing nation and ethnic group.

As for Southern pride, I'm not arguing AGAINST it or FOR it... I've been asking for pages what that phrase MEANS. Pride in WHAT? What heritage? What does this flag represent that is not already under the aegis of the American Flag?! To quote myself from earlier (because I can see that one way or another, I might as well get used to that now, rather than retype old points and arguments):Frame_Dragger

Heritage and pride exist all across the world. Are you saying a group of people are required to have their own coutry in order to fly a flag of heritage and pride?

Are you pulling my leg? Is this some kind of trolling/joke and I'm just not getting it? Scotland is a non-sovereign entity that forms one of the four countries of the Unitied Kingom. If you want to get technical it's considered a Kingdom consisting of a devolved government under an existing monarchy, or to quote the first sentence (with multiple included citations) from Wikipedia:

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

[Scotland can have a dozen flags... it is, in addition to being part of the UK, a country in its own right. If you don't beleive me, use this miracle of the internet and check. Their symbols are actual national symbols; that is, symbols belonging to an existing nation and ethnic group.

As for Southern pride, I'm not arguing AGAINST it or FOR it... I've been asking for pages what that phrase MEANS. Pride in WHAT? What heritage? What does this flag represent that is not already under the aegis of the American Flag?! To quote myself from earlier (because I can see that one way or another, I might as well get used to that now, rather than retype old points and arguments):

IMO, the confederate flag as it's used today is less about pride, heritage, racism, or anything like that, than it is about trying to establish some special identity to justify current conditions and a sense of inferiority. Tracing that back to the civil war is, in my opinion, laughable, but hey... there it is. More than racism, the common thread you'll find among non-civil war buffs who are into this flag, are:

I don't believe the south considers themselves inferior. From living in the south....I'd say they are just proud to be from "home".

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Scotland isn't a country.

Heritage and pride exist all across the world. Are you saying a group of people are required to have their own coutry in order to fly a flag of heritage and pride?

KC_Hokie

Are you pulling my leg? Is this some kind of trolling/joke and I'm just not getting it? Scotland is a non-sovereign entity that forms one of the four countries of the Unitied Kingom. If you want to get technical it's considered a Kingdom consisting of a devolved government under an existing monarchy, or to quote the first sentence (with multiple included citations) from Wikipedia:

To quote Wiki again (valuing once again the citations included, not the word of the masses)

Although the United Kingdom, as a sovereign state, is a country, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are also referred to as countries, whether or not they are sovereign states or have devolved or other self-government.[29][30] The British Prime Minister's website has used the phrase "countries within a country" to describe the United Kingdom.[11] With regard to Northern Ireland, the descriptive name used "can be controversial, with the choice often revealing one's political preferences."[31] Other terms used for Northern Ireland include "region" and "province".[32][33]Wikipedia

If you really think you're going to make a decent argument in the face of that, including the British PM's own description, I think I'm in for some excellent entertainment. A bit of advice for you... don't make declarations when you don't know the facts, the history, or have a leg to stand on.

For there to be pride in a group, it has to be distinct from the general population and have in common those elements which are the basis of that pride. For Scots, it's both their nationality, ethnicity, and history. For gay people, a shared history and struggle, and obviously... being gay For Southern americans, what is the shared experience that unifies them and what distinguishes them from the general populace?

If the confederate flag is JUST symbolizing "We're south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Period. Full Stop" then I'd say that's nothing to be ashamed or proud of. It certainly doesn't justify using the confederate flag as the symbol. As for your next post, yeah, the slavery issue was indeed coming to a head. Accepting that you're not claiming I attributed a moral cause to the North, then I have to ask... why mention it? You're asserting an uncontested point in a direct debate... yeah, this was not about good vs. evil. By the same token, as you say slavery WAS going to come to head, and it did in the civil war. Is it any wonder then that the greatest symbol of that war is associated with such a massive issue that helped to drive a country to schism?!Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]For there to be pride in a group, it has to be distinct from the general population and have in common those elements which are the basis of that pride. For Scots, it's both their nationality, ethnicity, and history. For gay people, a shared history and struggle, and obviously... being gay For Southern americans, what is the shared experience that unifies them and what distinguishes them from the general populace?

If the confederate flag is JUST symbolizing "We're south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Period. Full Stop" then I'd say that's nothing to be ashamed or proud of. It certainly doesn't justify using the confederate flag as the symbol. As for your next post, yeah, the slavery issue was indeed coming to a head. Accepting that you're not claiming I attributed a moral cause to the North, then I have to ask... why mention it? You're asserting an uncontested point in a direct debate... yeah, this was not about good vs. evil. By the same token, as you say slavery WAS going to come to head, and it did in the civil war. Is it any wonder then that the greatest symbol of that war is associated with such a massive issue that helped to drive a country to schism?!

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]For there to be pride in a group, it has to be distinct from the general population and have in common those elements which are the basis of that pride. For Scots, it's both their nationality, ethnicity, and history. For gay people, a shared history and struggle, and obviously... being gay For Southern americans, what is the shared experience that unifies them and what distinguishes them from the general populace?

If the confederate flag is JUST symbolizing "We're south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Period. Full Stop" then I'd say that's nothing to be ashamed or proud of. It certainly doesn't justify using the confederate flag as the symbol. As for your next post, yeah, the slavery issue was indeed coming to a head. Accepting that you're not claiming I attributed a moral cause to the North, then I have to ask... why mention it? You're asserting an uncontested point in a direct debate... yeah, this was not about good vs. evil. By the same token, as you say slavery WAS going to come to head, and it did in the civil war. Is it any wonder then that the greatest symbol of that war is associated with such a massive issue that helped to drive a country to schism?!Frame_Dragger

Well, the Stars and Bars originally symbolized a political entity whose primary raison d'etre was the preservation of slavery. Though the flag may stand for other things today, one can hardly be blamed if one finds it offensive for its association with slavery. In a word (actually two), "arguably yes" would be my answer.

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

The north didnt treat blacks any better than the south, they just didnt force them to work under slave labor.

JML897

Um

I'm not saying the north was perfect but isn't that a HUGE difference?

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

The north didnt treat blacks any better than the south, they just didnt force them to work under slave labor.

Um

I'm not saying the north was perfect but isn't that a HUGE difference?

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

Are you pulling my leg? Is this some kind of trolling/joke and I'm just not getting it? Scotland is a non-sovereign entity that forms one of the four countries of the Unitied Kingom. If you want to get technical it's considered a Kingdom consisting of a devolved government under an existing monarchy, or to quote the first sentence (with multiple included citations) from Wikipedia:

Frame_Dragger

To quote Wiki again (valuing once again the citations included, not the word of the masses)

If you really think you're going to make a decent argument in the face of that, including the British PM's own description, I think I'm in for some excellent entertainment. A bit of advice for you... don't make declarations when you don't know the facts, the history, or have a leg to stand on.

Again, don't trust what you read from there.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"]

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Scotland isn't a country. Here is some advice...don't believe everything you read in Wikipedia.

To quote Wiki again (valuing once again the citations included, not the word of the masses)

If you really think you're going to make a decent argument in the face of that, including the British PM's own description, I think I'm in for some excellent entertainment. A bit of advice for you... don't make declarations when you don't know the facts, the history, or have a leg to stand on.

Again, don't trust what you read from there.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Actually the UK has regional flags and all sorts of regional banners. This is one of many examples:

It's an ancient Scottish flag still used to represent Scotland.

KC_Hokie

That's actually the Royal Standard of Scotland. Considering that Queen Elizabeth happens to be the monarch of Scotland it's perfectly logical that Scots would still use this emblem.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] I don't, but I respect and DO believe the three inline citations provided. I'm familiar with the argument about its inclusion as a country, but the general consesus is that it is a country. If you want to put forward an opposing view, by all means, cite away, but please at least begin with ones equal to the task of those citations referenced in my quote. You see, I'm taking even more basic advice: don't just listen to random people on a gaming forum in the face of international consesus.

To quote Wiki again (valuing once again the citations included, not the word of the masses)

If you really think you're going to make a decent argument in the face of that, including the British PM's own description, I think I'm in for some excellent entertainment. A bit of advice for you... don't make declarations when you don't know the facts, the history, or have a leg to stand on.

Again, don't trust what you read from there.

Not necessarly. It could be because the confederate flag symbolized many things things that confederates supported. Slavery being one of those. If someone has a confederate flag in their home doesn't mean they support slavery or even their racist.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Based on that Wikipedia entry all 50 U.S. states are now 'countries'.

Again, don't trust what you read from there.

KC_Hokie

Done: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page823 Mind you, I already mentioned this as one of the citations. I'm not playing 'move the goal posts' anymore though... if this doesn't satisfy you... be unsatisfied.

@monkeytoes61: OK... what was the main issue?

it is racist, because its a flag that stands for nothing today, thus it represents everything that was confederate, by choosing to wave one, that person is knowingly admitting that they support what that flag stood for. i mean what kind of people do you see with confederate flags? white people, sometimes bald driving pick up trucks. your lying to yourself if you think racism doesn't exist anymore, or have the "get over it already" attitude. the thing is these racists are the biggest hypocrites, when latino's go on the streets and march with mexican flags, they start crying, yet they wave a flag that supposedly represents their heritage. If you want to wave a confederate flag to support your heritage, don't start crying when a mexican american waves a mexican flag to support their heritage.

it is racist, because its a flag that stands for nothing today, thus it represents everything that was confederate, by choosing to wave one, that person is knowingly admitting that they support what that flag stood for. i mean what kind of people do you see with confederate flags? white people, sometimes bald driving pick up trucks. your lying to yourself if you think racism doesn't exist anymore, or have the "get over it already" attitude. the thing is these racists are the biggest hypocrites, when latino's go on the streets and march with mexican flags, they start crying, yet they wave a flag that supposedly represents their heritage. If you want to wave a confederate flag to support your heritage, don't start crying when a mexican american waves a mexican flag to support their heritage.

lostfan132

The flag is not inherently racist though for many, not all, it does indeed have racist connotations. When someone waves the flag the intended meaning put forth is not, "Hello people, I'm waving this flag with the intention of showing that I am above all else to be characterized by racism, intolerance towards the North, a lack of education, and general ideas associated with Rednecks." At the least for those who wave the Confederate flag, they are merely expressing their loyalties to their state government and the "union" between other like-minded state governments.

I'm not entirely certain what is taught elsewhere, but in places such as the South the schools teach that the war was fought over state's rights, high taxation of the South's economy, etc. I do not know the truth of it but many I know are under the impression that the North's fight against the South had little to do with the abolition of slavery and that this abolition was more of an afterthought than a major motive.

In all of this I am not advocating slavery, racism, or anything other the sort. But rather, I am merely advocating that those who win the wars write the history books.mindstorm

Did not know you were from the south....

And I think Morgan Freeman said it best: "The best way to end racism is to stop talking about it."foxhound_fox

Why do black people throw around the race card so much? Why does white people hating Obama and wanting him out of office automatically make us racist? We're not allowed to just think he's a garbage president and a complete waste of time?(He really is) What about black people that don't like white presidents? Do you see every other white person calling those black people racists? :roll: It's so funny how many double standards exist in our society these days.

And what about all of the black people who voted for Obama just because he was black and not because of his politics? Why wasn't anyone calling them racist at the time? Instead they were saluted for "supporting their people"... Okay what about all of the people who voted for McCain because he was white? Were they just "supporting their people"? rofl Why are white people the only people on the world allowed to be labeled racist anymore?

Next time we have a white president and I'm talking about politics to a bunch of black people and they're hating on the white president I'm going to ask them if they're racist and see how they react. LOL Should be priceless...

Did not know you were from the south....

LJS9502_basic

I myself have never been one to publicly display the Confederate Flag though I certainly do know many who have.

it is racist, because its a flag that stands for nothing today, thus it represents everything that was confederate, by choosing to wave one, that person is knowingly admitting that they support what that flag stood for. i mean what kind of people do you see with confederate flags? white people, sometimes bald driving pick up trucks. your lying to yourself if you think racism doesn't exist anymore, or have the "get over it already" attitude. the thing is these racists are the biggest hypocrites, when latino's go on the streets and march with mexican flags, they start crying, yet they wave a flag that supposedly represents their heritage. If you want to wave a confederate flag to support your heritage, don't start crying when a mexican american waves a mexican flag to support their heritage.

The flag is not inherently racist though for many, not all, it does indeed have racist connotations. When someone waves the flag the intended meaning put forth is not, "Hello people, I'm waving this flag with the intention of showing that I am above all else to be characterized by racism, intolerance towards the North, a lack of education, and general ideas associated with Rednecks." At the least for those who wave the Confederate flag, they are merely expressing their loyalties to their state government and the "union" between other like-minded state governments. I'm not entirely certain what is taught elsewhere, but in places such as the South the schools teach that the war was fought over state's rights, high taxation of the South's economy, etc. I do not know the truth of it but many I know are under the impression that the North's fight against the South had little to do with the abolition of slavery and that this abolition was more of an afterthought than a major motive. In all of this I am not advocating slavery, racism, or anything other the sort. But rather, I am merely advocating that those who win the wars write the history books.mindstorm

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="lostfan132"] I find this post a bit ironic.....Frame_Dragger

The flag is not inherently racist though for many, not all, it does indeed have racist connotations. When someone waves the flag the intended meaning put forth is not, "Hello people, I'm waving this flag with the intention of showing that I am above all else to be characterized by racism, intolerance towards the North, a lack of education, and general ideas associated with Rednecks." At the least for those who wave the Confederate flag, they are merely expressing their loyalties to their state government and the "union" between other like-minded state governments. I'm not entirely certain what is taught elsewhere, but in places such as the South the schools teach that the war was fought over state's rights, high taxation of the South's economy, etc. I do not know the truth of it but many I know are under the impression that the North's fight against the South had little to do with the abolition of slavery and that this abolition was more of an afterthought than a major motive. In all of this I am not advocating slavery, racism, or anything other the sort. But rather, I am merely advocating that those who win the wars write the history books.mindstorm

Often times its on the claim for "states rights" when these very same states wanted to force the northern states to enforce the Fugitive slave act.. In the end of the day that was the main reason for the secession by the people in charge.. The rich controlled the South's government and they saw a potential threat on their way of life.. The common people had their own agenda and ideas.. We see this all the time in history, take for instance Nazi Germany.. The majority of german soldiers who fought did not believe or even know about the entirity of Hitlers plan with the SS when it came to the holocaust.. Instead they were fighting for the Motherland.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Did not know you were from the south....

mindstorm

I myself have never been one to publicly display the Confederate Flag though I certainly do know many who have.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Did not know you were from the south....

I myself have never been one to publicly display the Confederate Flag though I certainly do know many who have.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Did not know you were from the south....

LJS9502_basic

I myself have never been one to publicly display the Confederate Flag though I certainly do know many who have.

[QUOTE="BranKetra"][QUOTE="JIT93"] That's what I thought initially, because if my US history is correct, wasn't the civil war fought for State Rights?JIT93

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="lostfan132"] I find this post a bit ironic.....Frame_Dragger

The flag is not inherently racist though for many, not all, it does indeed have racist connotations. When someone waves the flag the intended meaning put forth is not, "Hello people, I'm waving this flag with the intention of showing that I am above all else to be characterized by racism, intolerance towards the North, a lack of education, and general ideas associated with Rednecks." At the least for those who wave the Confederate flag, they are merely expressing their loyalties to their state government and the "union" between other like-minded state governments. I'm not entirely certain what is taught elsewhere, but in places such as the South the schools teach that the war was fought over state's rights, high taxation of the South's economy, etc. I do not know the truth of it but many I know are under the impression that the North's fight against the South had little to do with the abolition of slavery and that this abolition was more of an afterthought than a major motive. In all of this I am not advocating slavery, racism, or anything other the sort. But rather, I am merely advocating that those who win the wars write the history books.mindstorm

And what about all of the black people who voted for Obama just because he was black and not because of his politics? Why wasn't anyone calling them racist at the time? Instead they were saluted for "supporting their people"... Okay what about all of the people who voted for McCain because he was white? Were they just "supporting their people"? rofl Why are white people the only people on the world allowed to be labeled racist anymore?Messiahbolical-

Please provide evidence that many blacks voted for Obama because he was black and not because of his politics. Keep in mind that blacks tend to overwelmingly vote Democratic even when the candidate is white.

[QUOTE="Messiahbolical-"]And what about all of the black people who voted for Obama just because he was black and not because of his politics? Why wasn't anyone calling them racist at the time? Instead they were saluted for "supporting their people"... Okay what about all of the people who voted for McCain because he was white? Were they just "supporting their people"? rofl Why are white people the only people on the world allowed to be labeled racist anymore?worlock77

Please provide evidence that many blacks voted for Obama because he was black and not because of his politics. Keep in mind that blacks tend to overwelmingly vote Democratic even when the candidate is white.

Yeah, I honestly doubt you'd have too many blacks voting for Herman Cain.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Heh... I'm thrilled to unconditionally agree with your point here.[QUOTE="mindstorm"]The flag is not inherently racist though for many, not all, it does indeed have racist connotations. When someone waves the flag the intended meaning put forth is not, "Hello people, I'm waving this flag with the intention of showing that I am above all else to be characterized by racism, intolerance towards the North, a lack of education, and general ideas associated with Rednecks." At the least for those who wave the Confederate flag, they are merely expressing their loyalties to their state government and the "union" between other like-minded state governments. I'm not entirely certain what is taught elsewhere, but in places such as the South the schools teach that the war was fought over state's rights, high taxation of the South's economy, etc. I do not know the truth of it but many I know are under the impression that the North's fight against the South had little to do with the abolition of slavery and that this abolition was more of an afterthought than a major motive. In all of this I am not advocating slavery, racism, or anything other the sort. But rather, I am merely advocating that those who win the wars write the history books.dsmccracken

[QUOTE="Messiahbolical-"]And what about all of the black people who voted for Obama just because he was black and not because of his politics? Why wasn't anyone calling them racist at the time? Instead they were saluted for "supporting their people"... Okay what about all of the people who voted for McCain because he was white? Were they just "supporting their people"? rofl Why are white people the only people on the world allowed to be labeled racist anymore?worlock77

Please provide evidence that many blacks voted for Obama because he was black and not because of his politics. Keep in mind that blacks tend to overwelmingly vote Democratic even when the candidate is white.