Is the west fascist?

Based on those criteria, I'd still say "no."Elraptor

[QUOTE="Elraptor"]Based on those criteria, I'd still say "no."lord_mordain

America? Fascist? what the hell are you people talking about? I can say anything I want about anyone in this country as long as its not a threat, and I will not go to jail or get shot. You must draw the lines between fascism and nationalism. its perfectly fine to display your countries flag at elections, 4th of July cookouts, and so on.KrayzieJ

No the west isn't fascist. End of topic.EboyLOL

a little explanation?

It's not truly fascist yet....America and France are turning to fascism for their own defense.....

Fascism isnt necessarily a bad thing in some occations

[QUOTE="Elraptor"]Based on those criteria, I'd still say "no."lord_mordain

Most of those points don't apply to either France or the US.sonicare

name some...

1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9 goes for both nations

argue if you think otherwise

[QUOTE="lord_mordain"][QUOTE="Elraptor"]Based on those criteria, I'd still say "no."LJS9502_basic

ok guys a lot of you seems to say no, though i've given some points that will fit France and the US perfectly....

What's your definition of fascism?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="lord_mordain"][QUOTE="Elraptor"]Based on those criteria, I'd still say "no."lord_mordain

No we're not fascist.  greeneye59

explain!....geeze.....

Why do you think it's called off-topic DISCUSSION ?

ok guys a lot of you seems to say no, though i've given some points that will fit France and the US perfectly....

What's your definition of fascism?

jointed

One party.  One cause.  One leader.

And as for those points fitting the US or France, many of them are vague, generalizing and poorly worded and any nation could fit into those criteria.

1.)  Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays

2.)  Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3.)  Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc

4.)  Supremacy of the Military 

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5.)  Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6.)  Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7.)  Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses

8.)  Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9.)  Corporate Power is Protected:

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10.)  Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed

11.)  Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12.)  Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations

13.)  Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. 

14.  Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

jointed

1.  Nationalism - Nationalism is not a quality of fascism alone.  Most people from most nations tend to be patriotic and have pride in their home countries.  As for your flag analogy, I lived in Philadelphia for 10 years and saw plenty of people waving US flags, but also plenty of americans burning us flags as well.

2.  The US and France both have better human rights records than most other nations on earth.  If you think that nations such as China, North Korea, Iran, Israel, Sudan, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. have better human rights records than the west, you need a cat scan of your head.   The US has been a champion for such causes as amnesty international.  The US constitution was founded on human rights.  The ACLU goes to court for even the rights of hated organizations like the KKK.

3.  Scapegoats - everyone does it.  Look at the US in the middle east.  Blamed for everything.

4. The amount of money spent on seniors in this country far outspends any military issues.  Programs such as Medicare, social security,etc. outspend the military.

5.  The tolerance for gays has been steadily increasing in this country and is far better than any nation in the middle east, china, or most far eastern countries.  We have openly gay celebrities, gay centered shows, etc.  As for sexism, yes it exists in this country - but it exists the world over.  I would much rather be a woman in the US than a woman in Iran.  P.S., there is a high chance our next president may either be a minority or a woman.

6.  Controlled Mass Media?  LOLOLOLOL.  Are you kidding?  Most of the press is antiestablishment.  It's always been..  There are thousands upon thousands of shows, columns, blogs, etc. bashing Bush, Cheney, etc.  The press is free in this country unlike some other nations where it is STATE CONTROLLED.  You could argue that the media is heavily influenced by corporate desires, but with freedom of expression and easy access to the web, the truth is always assured of being posted.

7.  National Security - who isn't concerned about national security when you are a target for attack?

8.  The US was founded on separation of church and state. I would argue that our press and politicians at times are anti religion.  But regardless, the US and France have far more practice of separation of church and state than some of the religous theocracies of the middle east.

9.  Yes, I agree that some corporations are given unfair treatment.  That is more a problem with capitalism than an inherent problem with the US.

10.  Big Labor is still a massive force in the US.  We have tons of unions and union protected jobs.  Look in the papers for all the strikes and union negotitations to see this.  Plus big labor has always been a big supporter of the dems.

11.  Disdain for the arts?  What are you talking about?  The US has an incredible artistic community, huge endowments for arts and educations, some of the best universities in the world which draw on students from across the world.  There is no basis for this point.

12.  The police are constantly monitored by the press, government, and people.  Police brutality is chronicled and offenders are suspended or fired.  Certainly there are those that get away with it, but it is far from tolerated or condoned.

13.  Cronyism is rampant in almost all governments to some degrees.  But the people only tolerate so much. 

14.  The US elections are not fradulent.  There was some controversy about the Bush-Gore election but that had more to do with technology than some overall conspiracy.  Unlike Chavez, the US candidates don't need to stuff the boxes.

1. Nationalism - Nationalism is not a quality of fascism alone...... sonicare

[QUOTE="Raeget"]I do have to admit, America is a mildly fascist country. I'm so disappointed how my own country that was supposed to be founded on liberty and equality is in this current mess with the Bush administration That's why I plan on moving to Europe as soon as I graduate.


I should raster this poster and put it up at my school. ^^^sidler88

i think you are getting your political parties mixed up,, Fascism is on the Far left, near socialism, Marxizm, and Communism.. the farthest Right you can go is Libertarianism, which is about as opposite as you can get from Fascism

i dont hold it against you,, i just assume you are an ignorant Bush-hater who doesnt know what they stand for... 

oh.. and socialism has NEVER worked,, and NEVER will,, take that Hillary 

[QUOTE="sidler88"]

[QUOTE="Raeget"]I do have to admit, America is a mildly fascist country. I'm so disappointed how my own country that was supposed to be founded on liberty and equality is in this current mess with the Bush administration That's why I plan on moving to Europe as soon as I graduate.


I should raster this poster and put it up at my school. ^^^Artosa

i think you are getting your political parties mixed up,, Fascism is on the Far left, near socialism, Marxizm, and Communism.. the farthest Right you can go is Libertarianism, which is about as opposite as you can get from Fascism

i dont hold it against you,, i just assume you are an ignorant Bush-hater who doesnt know what they stand for...

oh.. and socialism has NEVER worked,, and NEVER will,, take that Hillary

I'm willing to bet that 9/10 of the people on this board don't even know what fascism is.KrayzieJ

[QUOTE="KrayzieJ"]America? Fascist? what the hell are you people talking about? I can say anything I want about anyone in this country as long as its not a threat, and I will not go to jail or get shot. You must draw the lines between fascism and nationalism. its perfectly fine to display your countries flag at elections, 4th of July cookouts, and so on.lord_mordain

[QUOTE="jointed"]

1.)  Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays

2.)  Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3.)  Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc

4.)  Supremacy of the Military 

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5.)  Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6.)  Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7.)  Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses

8.)  Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9.)  Corporate Power is Protected:

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10.)  Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed

11.)  Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12.)  Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations

13.)  Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. 

14.  Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

sonicare

1.  Nationalism - Nationalism is not a quality of fascism alone.  Most people from most nations tend to be patriotic and have pride in their home countries.  As for your flag analogy, I lived in Philadelphia for 10 years and saw plenty of people waving US flags, but also plenty of americans burning us flags as well.

2.  The US and France both have better human rights records than most other nations on earth.  If you think that nations such as China, North Korea, Iran, Israel, Sudan, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. have better human rights records than the west, you need a cat scan of your head.   The US has been a champion for such causes as amnesty international.  The US constitution was founded on human rights.  The ACLU goes to court for even the rights of hated organizations like the KKK.

3.  Scapegoats - everyone does it.  Look at the US in the middle east.  Blamed for everything.

4. The amount of money spent on seniors in this country far outspends any military issues.  Programs such as Medicare, social security,etc. outspend the military.

5.  The tolerance for gays has been steadily increasing in this country and is far better than any nation in the middle east, china, or most far eastern countries.  We have openly gay celebrities, gay centered shows, etc.  As for sexism, yes it exists in this country - but it exists the world over.  I would much rather be a woman in the US than a woman in Iran.  P.S., there is a high chance our next president may either be a minority or a woman.

6.  Controlled Mass Media?  LOLOLOLOL.  Are you kidding?  Most of the press is antiestablishment.  It's always been..  There are thousands upon thousands of shows, columns, blogs, etc. bashing Bush, Cheney, etc.  The press is free in this country unlike some other nations where it is STATE CONTROLLED.  You could argue that the media is heavily influenced by corporate desires, but with freedom of expression and easy access to the web, the truth is always assured of being posted.

7.  National Security - who isn't concerned about national security when you are a target for attack?

8.  The US was founded on separation of church and state. I would argue that our press and politicians at times are anti religion.  But regardless, the US and France have far more practice of separation of church and state than some of the religous theocracies of the middle east.

9.  Yes, I agree that some corporations are given unfair treatment.  That is more a problem with capitalism than an inherent problem with the US.

10.  Big Labor is still a massive force in the US.  We have tons of unions and union protected jobs.  Look in the papers for all the strikes and union negotitations to see this.  Plus big labor has always been a big supporter of the dems.

11.  Disdain for the arts?  What are you talking about?  The US has an incredible artistic community, huge endowments for arts and educations, some of the best universities in the world which draw on students from across the world.  There is no basis for this point.

12.  The police are constantly monitored by the press, government, and people.  Police brutality is chronicled and offenders are suspended or fired.  Certainly there are those that get away with it, but it is far from tolerated or condoned.

13.  Cronyism is rampant in almost all governments to some degrees.  But the people only tolerate so much. 

14.  The US elections are not fradulent.  There was some controversy about the Bush-Gore election but that had more to do with technology than some overall conspiracy.  Unlike Chavez, the US candidates don't need to stuff the boxes.

ehm mate....I were not assaulting the US nor France in thoes points....They're (the points) the official ones......and your arguements are shallow....and you resort in comparing yourself with the middle east.......human rights....Look what you're doing in Guantanamo Bay that's condemned by the UN......scapegoats...such as terrorists....

I'm not saying that all thoes points fits the west, I were merly asking you guys to debate which ones did...

Hilary Clinton is not socialist by any standards -doubutsuteki

:lol:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1162267/posts

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/ireland/040706

http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/2006/10/31/hillary-clinton-and-socialisms-common-good-path-to-communism-in-america/

http://www.counterbias.com/577.html

her plans for healthcare, the (already socialist) education system, and the war disagree with you

[QUOTE="Raeget"]I do have to admit, America is a mildly fascist country. I'm so disappointed how my own country that was supposed to be founded on liberty and equality is in this current mess with the Bush administration That's why I plan on moving to Europe as soon as I graduate.


I should raster this poster and put it up at my school. ^^^sidler88

i think you are getting your political parties mixed up,, Fascism is on the Far left, near socialism, Marxizm, and Communism.. the farthest Right you can go is Libertarianism, which is about as opposite as you can get from Fascism

i dont hold it against you,, i just assume you are an ignorant Bush-hater who doesnt know what they stand for...

oh.. and socialism has NEVER worked,, and NEVER will,, take that Hillary

Your mom is a fascist.ACESandElGHTS

I forgot to add one thing:

The UK isn't the 51st state for three reasons:

The US likes the term Finlandization.

We like round numbers.  Fifty looks and sounds so nice.

We appreciate symbolism.  This is why beloved celebrities are given honorary degrees.  Sure, he's fairly uneducated, but he deserves an honorary Harvard degree for his work in human rights.  Hence, the United Kingdom is the honorary 51st state in the USA.

Enjoy your status.  We'll be here to help when Birmingham and Sheffield become Birmingstan and Shef-al-Ahmed-Field.

[QUOTE="ACESandElGHTS"]Your mom is a fascist.ACESandElGHTS

I forgot to add one thing:

The UK isn't the 51st state for three reasons:

The US likes the term Finlandization.

We like round numbers.  Fifty looks and sounds so nice.

We appreciate symbolism.  This is why beloved celebrities are given honorary degrees.  Sure, he's fairly uneducated, but he deserves an honorary Harvard degree for his work in human rights.  Hence, the United Kingdom is the honorary 51st state in the USA.

Enjoy your status.  We'll be here to help when Birmingham and Sheffield become Birmingstan and Shef-al-Ahmed-Field.

LOL everything in your post is pretty funny.,.,,

truth tho

[QUOTE="sidler88"]

[QUOTE="Raeget"]I do have to admit, America is a mildly fascist country. I'm so disappointed how my own country that was supposed to be founded on liberty and equality is in this current mess with the Bush administration That's why I plan on moving to Europe as soon as I graduate.


I should raster this poster and put it up at my school. ^^^Raeget

i think you are getting your political parties mixed up,, Fascism is on the Far left, near socialism, Marxizm, and Communism.. the farthest Right you can go is Libertarianism, which is about as opposite as you can get from Fascism

i dont hold it against you,, i just assume you are an ignorant Bush-hater who doesnt know what they stand for...

oh.. and socialism has NEVER worked,, and NEVER will,, take that Hillary

 the fact that he is wearing an elephant kinda is stating something about a particular party........

its cool tho everyone has an opinion,, i dont judge :)

[QUOTE="doubutsuteki"]
Hilary Clinton is not socialist by any standards -sidler88

:lol:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1162267/posts

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/ireland/040706

http://bsimmons.wordpress.com/2006/10/31/hillary-clinton-and-socialisms-common-good-path-to-communism-in-america/

http://www.counterbias.com/577.html

her plans for healthcare, the (already socialist) education system, and the war disagree with you

[QUOTE="MattUD1"][QUOTE="KrayzieJ"]I'm willing to bet that 9/10 of the people on this board don't even know what fascism is.doubutsuteki