Israel bomb hospital among other things

If you don't think civilian casualties are going to be inevitable in war, especially when one side is using body shields and hiding their weapons in mosques and hospitals, then you're hopelessly naive and you don't know anything about how war works. I don't understand your sticks and stones comment. Hamas isn't fighting fair, they're blindly firing rockets into Israel civilian populated areas. I'm gonna have to refer to the get you head out of your ass comment.

I think you need to read about WW2 where the U.S. and it's allies purposely killed hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese civilians to undermine the economic base. In the modern world. Intentionally targeting civilians is banned. I think you need to read about the Geneva and Hague conventions. No Hamas does not have the right to life, their atrocities do not justify their living by any twisted logic.

...Everything after the second sentence in the second paragraph just seems to be rambling.

From my position it's quite obvious that there is such a thing as greater evil, to say otherwise unfairly equivocates the IDF to Hamas.

As for the killing of civilians being unacceptable, while the IDF is guilty of war crimes and it is not a perfect institution, it is not as if Israel's intent is to purposefully and indiscriminately massacre Gazan's, these deaths are a byproduct of a larger conflict. I'm not dismissing these deaths as "collateral damage", but if you factor in the axiom that killing civilians is always unacceptable into your moral calculus when judging any given military action, you end up with pacifism being the only morally justifiable position by default. Many people do in fact take this position but not only are there moral issues specific to pacifism, as a practical matter pacifism is not much more than a pipe dream.

I don't think it's useful to get self-righteous about war.

Israel shouldn't fight back?

Right, so all those hundreds of Palestinian women and children we've seen murdered and injured by Israel are not civilians... All the international reporters must be lying, all those pictures must be photoshopped, and all those videos of murdered/injured women and children must be Arab actors... It's all an Anti-Semitic conspiracy!

There are not hundreds of dead women and children in Gaza. Unless you have some type of proof that shows otherwise.

Would you shoot through several innocent people to hit your aggressor? I don't think any one here is going to defend Hamas and their actions, they are a terrorist organizations.. But that doesn't some how mean you can't be critical towards Israeli tactics and policies as well..

Gaza Health Ministry

"Out of the 848 dead, 40 were elderly (20 males, 20 females), 600 were adults (518 males, 82 females) and 208 were children (138 males, 70 females).

Out of the 5,694 injured 230 elderly (108 males, 122 females), 3685 adults (2573 males, 1112 females) and 1779 children (1126 males, 653 females)."

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs

"789 Palestinians killed, including at least 578 civilians, of whom 185 are children and 93 are women.

These figures do not include many reported cases that could not yet be verified, including the Beit Hanoun school."

...But I guess the Gaza Health Ministry and the United Nations must all be part of some Anti-Semitic conspiracy.

As you rightfully said, I'm not going to trust anything coming from Gaza as unbiased.

As for the UN report, I'll concede you were correct with the body count, but the report takes a few liberties that I don't agree with.

Gaza Ali could be playing COD... like this guy during the Japan earthquake.

P.S. I hope he's okay too.

Exactly! Almost no one seems to get that

Actually, there are people here who have defended Hamas. Maybe not in this thread since I haven't followed it from the beginning, but some of the others, certainly.

What is the alternative? How else is Israel suppose to be expected to fight this war? I could certainly come up with quite a few different hypothetical situations where I would shoot through several innocent people to hit my aggressor.

Or is this military operation inherently wrong? Should Israel just sit back and wait until Hamas militants come into Israel through underground tunnels to kidnap Israelis, indiscriminately massacre Israeli communities and blow up buses? I guess at least then there wouldn't be people complaining about proportionality.

Really honestly, the statistics show they shouldn't be fighting it at all. Military operations only increase the deaths on both sides, and further empower their enemies with more popular support, while negotiation does the opposite, actually reducing the violence, and reducing the number willing to support their enemies. This assumes of course the stated goals of this operation are what they claim, but sadly I'm starting to agree with the skeptics that it is looking increasingly like the stated goals are BS. The IDF is increasingly looking like they are just using the "human shield" argument to absolve themselves of all responsibility and allow them to pursue war completely unburdened. It reminds me of a recent incident where a swat team was serving a warrant, the front door to the residence we blocked, so without looking, they threw a grenade in, only to later find out said block was a child's crib and the child was killed as a result. That was widely considered outrageous behavior on the part of the police. But here, the IDF is basically doing the same thing, shelling and bombing positions haphazardly that they think might have hamas in them, yet they are widely given a free pass. That just shouldn't be.

First of all, IDF military operations aren't nearly as haphazard as you seem to believe they are. Moreover I fail to see how doing nothing is an option. Israel putting down its guns isn't going to persuade Hamas to do the same, it would only embolden them. This is a confrontation that was largely unavoidable.

What exactly do you think the goals of this military operation actually are? The IDF is not indiscriminately massacring Arabs, a fair reading of the statistics simply doesn't bare that out.

So far the casualty count speak far louder that they are haphazard (and particularly incidents like the hospitals being hit when they knew they were occupied). I'm being nice interpreting this simply as reckless rather than deliberate. And beyond that, I didn't say do nothing, I said negotiate. In fact, this offensive has cost them more lives than all rocket attacks ever (not just recent ones, EVER). That isn't smart tactics if your goal is to improve safety unless you just like sacrificing your own troops.

And I didn't say they were indiscriminately massacring Arabs (nice completely BS reading of my post though). I'm quite certain they have reasons for every target they make, those reasons have just been shown to be very disturbing wanting on many occasions to the point of being inexcusable.

Has Sun_Tzu become more pro-Israel than he was some time ago?

The linguistic hegemony is not specific to Israel, it's actually property of most powers (mainly western) which are considered democratic and have enough money to wage wars using advanced technology and organized armies. Whoever doesn't fit the mold more often than not is considered a terrorist when they attack or kill people. Either way I'm not sure that the article is saying that what Hamas does isn't terrorism while what Israel does is, I'm pretty sure the argument is to questio why what Hamas does is considered terrorism but not what Israel does. That's a valid question.

Please enlighten me then as to what you think those reasons are. You've said that you are starting to "agree with the skeptics" that the stated goals are "BS", that you are being "nice" by describing civilian casualties as reckless rather than deliberate, and that the reasons behind the targets that they make is "disturbing" and "inexcusable." If you aren't going to be clear with your language I have no choice but to read between the lines.

As for negotiations, obviously as a matter of principle negotiations are preferable over armed conflict, but Hamas isn't going to negotiate away its rockets or its underground tunnel system, and as a general strategy the less Israel negotiates with Hamas the better.

I don't think I've become any more supportive of Israel than I was in the past. The only times I really criticize Israel are when it does things that I see as counter-intuitive to its own interests (like the continued building of settlements in the West Bank). But I will say that I have a lot less sympathy for many of the critics of Israel, particularly those on the left, as time has gone on.

I don't think that's a particularly relevant question to ask, but the answer is really obvious. Hamas entire strategy is based on creating as many civilian causalities (both Israeli, and Arab) as possible, whereas Israel goes to great lengths to limit them. You just have to read the Hamas charter and compare it with the basic laws of Israel to understand the difference between these two parties. One is fighting for a repressive Islamist dictatorship whereas the other is defending a liberal, albeit imperfect, multicultural democracy.

I don't agree with that. What they say and what they do is not the same (word games again). Israel can say whatever they want but their actions show reckless and disrespectful behavior and I really don't see that they care much for the consequences of their actions. With Hamas I partially agree because I think their final objective is not particularly to kill civilians as isn't Israel's behavior either but in the search for their goal both consider killing civilians as an acceptable inconvenience, it just happens that, at this point in time, Israel is much more effective doing that than Hamas. I'm sure that if Hamas had the amount of military capacity Israel has their attacks wouldn't seem so random or desperate and would be more focused on military and political objectives which will serve more their purpose. Of course Hamas wouldn't stop killing israeli civilians or caring about them much like Israel doesn't with palestinian civilians. I'm pretty sure that for most israelis the two state solution is considered a joke by now. They know that's not happening as well as Netanyahu knows so they are looking to exterminate each other, Israel's just happens to be more politically correct while doing it.

As long as Israel's actions show the kind of behavior they show then I don't accept that Israel is trying to be as nice as possible. That seems like a ridiculous notion to me.

Hundreds? You did read the report about HAMAS exaggerating the casualties? The majority of casualties have been young men....of whom some are surely HAMAS.

If you don't think Hamas' final objective isn't to kill civilians then you either don't know what you are talking about or are pretending naivety to mask certain distasteful opinions about a certain group of people. Read Hamas' charter, read the statements that Hamas' leadership says about Israelis and Jews in general. Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel and "purifying" all of Palestine from Jaffa to the Jordan River. And once they're done with the Jews they'll go after the Shiites, the Christians, and the Druze and anyone else who is either a nonbeliever or considered an apostate. I have enough respect for these people to take them at their word.

Say what you want about Israel, but they're not trying to exterminate Arabs. It has proven time and time again that it is able to peacefully co-exist alongside Arab states. Israeli Arabs are afforded more rights in Israel than they would have in any Arab country on earth. Stop with the bullshit false equivalencies.

Reasons for what? Their stated goals I already gave. Their real goals, asking for such is just flame bait and you know it as neither of us know the truth, I just see the stated goals aren't compatible with their actions so I highly suspect there is some alternate goal.

As to the negotiations, when you start on the basis: "hey, give us your every ability to defend yourself" yeah, I'm sure that wouldn't go over well. Maybe something a tad more reasonable like, hey you stop shooting at us, and we'll stop killing you, might work better.

Hamas was driven to power thanks to Israel's illegal occupation. Chances are that if Israel wasn't occupying illegaly territories the palestinians would never have voted them to power. When a people feel oppressed and hopeless is more probable for them to react violently, it's like a cornered, wounded animal. I'm sure that if Israel didn't have the support of the international community to maintain an army and such levels of technology and they became cornered by the palestinians or other group they would react equally violently, possibly choosing the most extreme factions of Israel to represent them. That's no excuse to murder israelis or palestinians in general since the palestinians are not Hamas and the isrealis are not their government.

I read an article recently which put this whole conflict from the point of view of empathy, for the author the conflict is in itself a lack of empathy problem. I can't but agree with him, both sides fail to realize how similar both will react if they were in the same circumstances as the other, that's what empathy is, the capacity to put yourselves in the others' shoes and try to understand why the others act the way the do. Most often than not, if you do a honest analysis and introspection you'll realize that you are both pretty similar. The documentary "Fog of War" about the Vietnam war touches some similar issues. The inability for americans to understand why the vietnamis were fighting was a problem of empathy, of trying to get closer and understand the other, your opponent as a human being.

I have been trying to understand the conflict from the israeli point of view too. I can't help but feel kind of sorry for the israelis. I think they have been used by western powers for decades as a buffer for conflicts in the region. Western powers can ultimately offset the pressure of arab countries by having Israel serve as punching bag and, at the same time, they can do their usual shady business in the region and steer the focus to Israel when things get ugly. That's entirely an opinion since I have no evidence to say anything concretely but I think Israel was dealt a bad hand and they fell for it.

But even if that is indeed what's happening I find that the behavior of Israel is unacceptable and despicable.

Here we go again...

Gaza Health Ministry

"Out of the 848 dead, 40 were elderly (20 males, 20 females), 600 were adults (518 males, 82 females) and 208 were children (138 males, 70 females).

Out of the 5,694 injured, 230 elderly (108 males, 122 females), 3685 adults (2573 males, 1112 females) and 1779 children (1126 males, 653 females)."

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs

"789 Palestinians killed, including at least 578 civilians, of whom 185 are children and 93 are women.

These figures do not include many reported cases that could not yet be verified, including the Beit Hanoun school."

...But I guess the Gaza Health Ministry and the United Nations must all be part of some Anti-Semitic conspiracy.

@Jag85: Unfortunately for you the info I was talking about came from HAMAS not Israel.

You're either uninformed or severely misinformed about the conflict and its history judging by these types of statements. You also seem to have pretty perverse and fatalistic views on human behavior in general. And to compare this current conflict with Vietnam is idiotic for a number of reasons, here are the two biggest reasons.

1) The Northern Vietnamese and Vietcong objectives did not include the destruction of America

2) Vietnam and America are on opposite sides of the world

Americans had the ability to pack their bags and go home. Where do you suggest the Israeli's go?

When the leader of Hamas publicly proclaims that he wants to purify the land of its Zionist "occupiers" from Jaffa to the Jordan River I take him seriously. You don't - you don't seem to have a clue as to why either side is fighting.

I agree, as I already said Hamas isn't going to negotiate away its rockets or its underground tunnel system. Thus the need for the air strikes and the ground invasion. There is no need to speculate about conspiracy theories, their stated objectives sufficiently explain why they are fighting.

Israel has struck a couple thousand targets within the strip. This has resulted in around 800 deaths. Gaza has a population of nearly 2 million and has a population density of 5046 people per kilometer squared. Moreover, you look at the demographics of the dead and they are overwhelmingly adult males. These numbers don't give the impression of a reckless military campaign, and it certainly doesn't sound like a deliberate slaughter.

Also feel free to compare these numbers with other countries that have fought an urban war against guerrilla militants before you rush to demonize Israel.

@LJS9502_basic: And unfortunately for you, the numbers I've listed comes from the Gaza Health Ministry and United Nations, not Hamas or Israel. How much longer are you going to keep defending the indefensible?

Did you miss where it said UN? you know United Nations not Hamas.

Also its pretty funny how you call others "apologist" when the biggest on this board is you and you even manufacture your own facts to fit the picture that Israel is all green here.

Hamas shouldn't've murdered those 3 israeli students in first place , now look over 800 dead and total destruction . Israel is a dangerous and angry nation , why mess with it ??? :( Last i read things calming down fortunately.

Ah yes, the same UN that returns rockets to Hamas after they are found in UN schools.

And? does that make them untrustworthy or suddenly a part of Hamas?

You've just proven his point. All you've shown is that you lack the empathy to even be able to comprehend the Palestinian point of view, demonstrating a perverse lack of understanding of human psychology. You're not making any effort at all to understand the Palestinian perspective at all, but are just spouting off random political semantics that are completely off-tangent. You know nothing about how life is like in Gaza, under occupation, driven out of your home, forced into a blockaded open-air prison, living your entire life as a prisoner since birth, treated like a caged animal rather than a human being, living under curfew where you could be shot dead if you stay out too late, having your electricity deliberately cut-off for entire nights, being randomly shot at for no apparent reason, beaten up or arrested by occupying soldiers with impunity, being 33% likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, every few years having Israelis attack you and murder your family, living in fear of Israel your whole life, etc. And this was all before Hamas ever came to power.

From the perspective of Palestinians living in occupied Gaza, it's like a living hell, one that makes even death feel like a relief. Many Palestinians have been cornered to a point where they'd much rather dream of heaven/paradise than live in what they view as a living hell. And for many of them, Israel is the monster that drove them out of their homes and has been tormenting them their entire lives. For them, just like for the Vietnamese under French and then American occupation, Palestinians see this conflict as a struggle for freedom. Palestinians simply want Israel to get out of their lives, something that only Hamas seems to be promising them. And that's what makes Israel's idiotic calls to the Palestinian people to oust Hamas all the more ridiculously nonsensical. Palestinians view Hamas, more than ever now, as the only thing defending them from the Israeli Zionist mass-murdering monsters. The more Israel corners Palestinians, the more the support for Hamas will only grow stronger by the day.

The only clue you have is why Zionist Israelis are fighting, and most of the world already knows Israel's propaganda. We've been told the story since school about how Jews were subjected to a Holocaust and how much suffering they had to go through to finally get a Jewish state for themselves. Of course Israelis will want to defend the world's only Jewish state no matter what, regardless of how many Palestinian men, women and children they have to slaughter. This is something most of the world already knows, and accepted for over half a century, but what most of the world had been overlooking this whole time is the Palestinian side of the story, dismissing Palestinians as nothing more than savages, terrorists and religious fanatics. It took over half a century, in the age of social media, for most of the world to finally wake up and even attempt to understand the Palestinian side of the story.

It's the latest incident in a long history of what I'll describe as less than impartial behavior.

So now you regard the United Nations as an unreliable source? How much more are you going to live in denial of the facts?

Well, that depends on which side you are sitting on, But it still doesnt make their numbers unreliable or UN untrustworthy.

Yes I know, Palestinians simply want Israel to get out of their lives and off their land. I never said anything to the contrary. There's a difference between not knowing why someone fights and disagreeing with the goals they strive to obtain. I ask again, where do you suggest the Israeli's go?

Life would be so much simpler if we had the solutions to all the problems in this world. But like with many problems in this world, there just isn't exactly a clear-cut solution to this chaos. But if I had to suggest a solution, one that might rattle a few feathers, it would be a single-state solution, combined Palestine-Israel, a democratic state where both Jews and Palestinians live as equals. That's something I'd like to see, but I doubt it could become a reality.

Look I mean if I could believe that a liberal, binational democratic state that could be called both a Jewish and Palestinian homeland could exist I would support that. But that's just not where we are right now, and we aren't going to be at that point for the foreseeable future, if ever. Quite simply it's very hard to imagine that Jews would be able to survive as a minority in an Arab majority country. By proposing a one state solution you really aren't proposing anything. A two state solution is the only viable solution for both sides, and Hamas has made it clear that they won't be satisfied with that. If Palestinian support for Hamas grows "stronger day by day", well, that's up to them, but it won't end well for them if they go that route.

Here's what Norman Finkelstein has to say about the one state solution

Like I said, I doubt a one-state solution could ever become a reality. That would be an ideal outcome, but not one that Israel would ever be willing to accept, becoming a Jewish minority in an Arab-majority country. A two-state solution is a more practical outcome, and one that, contrary to Israel's propaganda lies, Hamas had already agreed to earlier this year. Hamas and Fatah united, for the first time, earlier this year, which is something Israel's right-wing does not want, since it would much rather keep them divided (i.e. divide & conquer). So it's no surprise that they trumped-up false allegations with those three Israeli teenagers, just so they could go after Hamas and end any possibility of a united Palestine and therefore a two-state solution. The reality is that Israel's right-wing does not ever want to see a free Palestine, especially after huge amounts of natural gas has been discovered in Gaza, which Israel can never access for as long as Hamas is around.

@Jag85 - Frankly Israel managed to fall upon a huge Leviathon gas field of their own, and a bit of the Tamar gas field that overlaps with Lebanon a bit (and ergo there will be conflict over that as Israel can get to the gas/oil, Lebanon cannot unless they get some sort of help from somewhere which is unlikely without losing a big chunk of the profits.)

They won't need the oil/gas from Gaza.

As far as trumped-up charges, i'm agnostic on that, it very well could be trumped up or it could very well be true that Hamas did pick up those kids. and if not Hamas someone else. it's not like there is a deficit number of Palestinian groups looking to kill Jews.

and no, i don't think Israel is lying when they say Hamas doesn't agree to a two-state solution. the whole arrangement of the unity government was so that Hamas could pay it's bills, they were desperate enough that they didn't seek to have more stronger representation in the unity government during negotiations. They just needed the money. It is still part of Hamas's charter, they're daily speeches in Arabic at the rallies and after Friday prayers. The Israeli's are not deaf dumb and blind.

I will say though under Likud leadership Israel is an @sshole at times. when the Palestinians split, for atleast 2-3 years the excuse was the Israeli's cannot negotiate on half of Palestine. So when Fatah and Hamas finally patch up their differences, the Israeli's walk out. It would be useful if Hamas made an about-face with their charter and what they say in Arabic, but to do that they become just a harsher shade of Fatah and thus lose support from Palestinian people, who'll throw their support behind the next viable fighting group.

The one state solution is ridiculous position. in an ideal-fantasy land sure. but if that were a reality, Christians wouldn't be run off their property in Iraq right now. Shia human rights activists wouldn't be shot in the street in Saudi, In all the Muslim countries you'd see they're able to appropriately share power, respecting and preserving the rights of the minorities. Except we know that's not true at all, and it's far far from the truth, Lebanon went into a bloody civil war, and is always on the brink of one due to diversity in its groups, in Syrian civil war lines broke along sectarian religious lines, Iraq is right now effectively split in 3 along sectarian/ethnic lines.

when the 1948 war was done, around 750,000 Palestinians were displaced, but so where around 850,000 Jews displaced from Morocco to Iran, from Syria to Yemen. Israel took in the 850,000 Jews

I mean if no one told you, you'd assume these Palestinian refugees.

The difference is the Jews were taken in by Israel, the Palestinian refugees were not. With the exception of Israel taking in 150,000 Palestinians in (who later became the majority of the 1.25 million Arab Israeli's that live in Israel today) the the rest stayed in limbo. Only years later did Jordan allow a path to citizenship for the Palestinian refugees. and I think this is important.

The UN has TWO bodies dealing with UN refugees the UNHCR (UN High Commission for Refugees) and the UNRWA (UN Relief and Work Agency for the Palestine refugees in the Near East). So why was an AGENCY developed for ONE people, while all the rest must go through the UN's standard one. and on top of that the UNHCR handles tens of millions of people from numerous conflicts helped them resettle.

It's not a happy process but the people are better off afterward. It's immoral and inhumane to hold 5-7 million refugees in limbo, living in poverty. to the point in some refugee camps like Yarmouk in Lebanon it's so bad that they've eaten all the rats, cats and dogs. and worse yet, what is a Palestinian exactly? they are Arabs, mostly Muslim, who originated from what was called Palestine area, so in essence apart from their great grandpa's origin (as most of the refugees now are born in the camps) they are Arab Muslims.. living in Arab Muslim lands and can't get access to the same services as the other Arab Muslims.

We know that Israel isn't gonna take in all of these, if anything they're wiling to take in some, but they're not taking in all. that is for sure. So where they gonna go? well i'd look to the Arabs, new Palestine and the international community. I know in the 2008 leaked Palestine papers, the US, Chile and Argentina in secret agreed to take in some of the refugees and resettle them.

Because i've yet to ever see a Pro-Palestinian video ever explain the difference between to the two relief agencies, I will let former Israeli deputy foreign minister Danny Ayalon explain in a neat little video.

But because of the reality of the larger-culture in the Middle East, there is no way in hell are the Jews in Israel going to make themselves a minority in their own country. ESPECIALLY when they are the most hated minority group in Arab/Muslim lands, even well before Israel came into being.

And the UN gets it's numbers from HAMAS.

Guys have we solved this issue?

lol

There is so much wrong with this post. First of all natural gas was discovered in Gaza in 2000, Israel unilaterally left the strip in 2005, forcibly removing Jewish settlers against their will. Why would they do that if they wanted its natural gas? Why would, at the end of the day, Israel be willing to allow Egypt to ultimately annex the strip? Why does Egypt want nothing to do with Gaza if this natural gas is so valued?

And what do the borders of a "free Palestine" look like? What is "Palestine" in the first place? If we're going to be honest with ourselves there's already a "free Palestine", its on the east side of the Jordan river. As much as I loathe the Israeli right wing and it is fair to say that they have played a big part in derailing the peace process in the past, they are infinitely more in touch with reality than most of the Palestinian leadership. Even a racist like Avigdor Lieberman comes off sounding reasonable by comparison.

Golda Meir once said that there will be peace once Arabs start loving their children more than they hate Israelis. Feel free to dismiss that statement as Zionist propaganda, but her words also have the added benefit of being true. Anti-Zionism is integral to Palestinian (and to a great extent, Arab) nationalism, you don't have to take my word for it, just listen to what Palestinian nationalists say out loud in public. To many if not most Arab nationalists (and even worse, the Islamists), the mere existence of Israel is more than just a minor inconvenience.

I beg to differ, but it seems very obvious to me that Israel is clearly lying, just like many governments do on a regular basis around the world. That's just politics 101. Just months earlier, Hamas and Fatah had finally come to common terms on a two-state solution. Israel does not want a unity government with both Fatah and Hamas, so they're just exploiting the murder of the three Israeli teenagers to go after Hamas. No one knows who murdered them, and the recording of the kidnappers even show them speaking Hebrew, not Arabic. It's ridiculous to automatically assume Hamas did it, without any shred of evidence whatsoever. But that didn't matter to Israel, because they just wanted to break up the unity government and end Hamas once and for all, and they found an excuse for it. And now that Israel is bombarding Gaza, Hamas has reverted back to rejecting a two-state solution.

The real question you should be asking is: What is an "Arab"? Before the rise of Arab nationalism in the early 20th century, most people in the Middle East and North Africa didn't identify themselves as "Arabs", but they identified themselves by where they came from, whether it was Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Morocco, Sudan, etc. Arab is not an actual ethnicity, but a cultural identity (or pan-ethnicity), just like the Latino people of Latin America. After the original Bedouin Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula swept across the Middle East and North Africa, the local inhabitants slowly adopted Arabic language and culture, becoming "Arabized" over the centuries. Also, a large fraction of Palestinians are still Christians to this day. In fact, Palestinian Christians are the world's oldest Christian community (since that's where Jesus and Christianity originated from). And finally, genetic evidence demonstrates that most Palestinians can trace back their ancestry to the pre-historic inhabitants of the region, to a much greater degree than Israeli Jews.

interesting, I always thought us Jews were a bunch of racially inferior , Middle Eastern Christ killers, apparently its useful to change things based on nonsensical claims.

btw, define an Israeli Jew.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 in order to protect its Jewish citizens, to significantly reduce Jewish casualties in case another Intifada breaks out. After that, they expected the more Israel-friendly Fatah to come to power, but instead Hamas unexpectedly got more votes. Israel doesn't need to have Jewish settlers to access the gas fields, but all they need is just a Gaza government willing to sell gas to Israeli energy companies, something Hamas would never allow but Fatah would be open to.

What is "Israel" in the first place? It was just a place mentioned somewhere in the Bible. There may have been a short-lived kingdom called "Israel" millennia ago, but it has been known as "Palestine" for far longer, from ancient Egyptian times through to Mandatory Palestine. Either way, it makes no difference what the place was called in the past, but the fact remains that there were people living there before any European Jews ever set foot there. There were towns and villages full of Arabic-speaking people, who were eventually driven out to make way for European Zionist settlers, many of whom were still scarred by the memory of the Holocaust. But to most of the people who were driven out, their homes, farms and property were in what we today call Israel, not what we today call Jordan.

Yes, I will dismiss that statement as Zionist propaganda, because he clearly has no empathy for, or human psychological understanding, of the Palestinian point of view, or the point of view of what it's like to live under an oppressive occupation in general. Once again, since you clearly didn't "get" it before:

Strawman. No one here is accusing Jews of being "racially inferior , Middle Eastern Christ killers". Also, there's nothing "nonsensical" about scientific genetic studies that demonstrate Palestinians being indigenous to the region.

An Israeli Jew is a Jewish citizen of Israel. Do you seriously need a definition for that?

honestly, Ive never seen such studies, Ive seen more associating Jewish connections to various peoples in the Levant actually.

and actually yes, that was the general sentiment for 1900 years, you can't go around changing things just to suit your ideology. can you imagine if Lincoln for instance tried to emancipate blacks by claiming they were secretly white? that would be insane and would be rightfully laughed at.

and yes, I want you to define an Israeli Jew, since we are talking about genetics and such , go on ahead and try.

If you've already seen such studies, then I don't see what exactly you're disagreeing about. I never claimed Jews have no Levantine ancestry, but stated the obvious fact that Palestinians clearly have a greater degree of ancestry native to the region.

Once again, no one here is accusing Jews of being "Jesus killers". This is not the 1940's anymore.

Like I already said, an Israeli Jew is a Jewish citizen of Israel. It's not rocket science.