Judas: Christianity's hero

[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]Yes, but the thing is that, as foxhound_fox touched upon, this wasn't just something that happened that turned out to be positive; orthodox Christian doctrine holds that the entire purpose of Jesus coming to Earth was to be killed and then rise again. In other words, Judas wasn't just a dick who accidentally did something good; what he did was the fulfillment of the entire plan behind Jesus' first coming. If God sent Jesus to Earth specifically to die, then I can scarcely imagine God just kind of crossing his fingers and hoping that someone kills Jesus; one would think that he had a plan, and that Judas was a key player in that plan. According to orthodox Christian doctrine, the death of Jesus was both God's plan from the beginning and basically the greatest thing that ever happened to the world.GabuEx

If you take Christianity at face value, then two things have to be true at the same time: (1) God has to be omniscient and omnipotent, and (2) human beings have to have freewill.It has to be well wthin his ability given those parameters to look at future events and use them to the advantage of a specific part of his plan (usually by simply not preventing individuals from acting on their bad intentions) while at the same time not condoning the activities of those he allowed to act.

Hence, I don't see why the qualification that you and foxhound touched upon do anything disrupting here. I wasn't predicating my statement on "just something that turned out to be positive". Whether it turns out to be just some positive event or a specific purpose would be irrelevant from the perspective of an omniscient and omniopotent God, as any being at that supposed level of existence would be planning these things well in advance based on complete knowledge. Every activity would be something he would know about well in advance and use to his advantage, which necessarily includes the bad intents of others being used to further a specific purpose as well as the good. He could easily allow Judas to perform his intentions without regard to whether they are motivated by "sin" or "righteousness" without Judas' awareness or a granting of impunity.

Yes, but as I said, if God has some master plan, then that master plan must be fulfilled. If that master plan must be fulfilled, then humans cannot act in a way that would cause it to be unfulfilled. If humans cannot act in a way that would cause it to be unfulfilled, then humans cannot meaningfully make a choice when that choice would impact God's master plan. If humans cannot meaningfully make a choice, then humans have no free will. The very premise that God has a master plan necessarily takes away humans' ability to have free will when it comes to anything affecting that master plan. As such, the two premises that God has a master plan and that humans have free will are already logically inconsistent, rendering any logical argument pointless that attempts to accept them both as premises.

Maybe, He would just know what would happen when Jesus set to do his work on earth.

Maybe there is no master plan for him to set out, instead he knows what people will do to Jesus. So, humans are still acting out of their own free will.

John 3:16 says God sent his son so who believes in him...etc. It didn't say he sent him to die. So, maybe there was no set plan for Jesus to carry out. He just came knowing he would be prosecuted because of how some people would feel about the things he did and said.

Maybe, He would just know what would happen when Jesus set to do his work on earth.

Maybe there is no master plan for him to set out, instead he knows what people will do to Jesus. So, humans are still acting out of their own free will.

John 3:16 says God sent his son so who believes in him...etc. It didn't say he sent him to die. So, maybe there was no set plan for Jesus to carry out. He just came knowing he would be prosecuted because of how some people would feel about the things he did and said.

Wii4Fun

If he just knew what would happen and had no hand in it, then there was no plan and God can't exactly take credit for anything.

Jesus says in John 4:34 that God sent him to finish his work, and Paul writes in 1 Timothy 1:15 that Jesus was sent to the world to be its savior. Those seem pretty incompatible with the idea that God did not directly cause anything to happen.

[QUOTE="Wii4Fun"]

Maybe, He would just know what would happen when Jesus set to do his work on earth.

Maybe there is no master plan for him to set out, instead he knows what people will do to Jesus. So, humans are still acting out of their own free will.

John 3:16 says God sent his son so who believes in him...etc. It didn't say he sent him to die. So, maybe there was no set plan for Jesus to carry out. He just came knowing he would be prosecuted because of how some people would feel about the things he did and said.

GabuEx

If he just knew what would happen and had no hand in it, then there was no plan and God can't exactly take credit for anything.

Jesus says in John 4:34 that God sent him to finish his work, and Paul writes in 1 Timothy 1:15 that Jesus was sent to the world to be its savior. Those seem pretty incompatible with the idea that God did not directly cause anything to happen.

That's what I'm saying. We have free will. :P

Jesus just came to earth to preach to people and stuff and he knew he would be persecuted for it.

I dunno....guess I need to read and study my Bible more if I want to debate anything.

Yes, but the thing is that, as foxhound_fox touched upon, this wasn't just something that happened that turned out to be positive; orthodox Christian doctrine holds that the entire purpose of Jesus coming to Earth was to be killed and then rise again. In other words, Judas wasn't just a dick who accidentally did something good; what he did was the fulfillment of the entire plan behind Jesus' first coming. If God sent Jesus to Earth specifically to die, then I can scarcely imagine God just kind of crossing his fingers and hoping that someone kills Jesus; one would think that he had a plan, and that Judas was a key player in that plan. According to orthodox Christian doctrine, the death of Jesus was both God's plan from the beginning and basically the greatest thing that ever happened to the world.

GabuEx

The entire purpose Jesus came to the world was...

John 6:32-35 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

John 6:38-40: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47-51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever"

John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

Mat 18:11

John 12:46"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctlythat I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

That's what I'm saying. We have free will. :P

Jesus just came to earth to preach to people and stuff and he knew he would be persecuted for it.

I dunno....guess I need to read and study my Bible more.

Wii4Fun

Yes, except for two things:

1. Paul specifically writes to Timothy that Jesus came to be the world's savior.

2. Jesus became the world's savior by living a sinless life, being crucified, and then being reborn.

In other word, Jesus came to the world to be an atoning sacrifice. His death was a pivotal part of the plan.

The entire purpose Jesus came to the world was...

John 6:32-35 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

John 6:38-40: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47-51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever"

John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

Mat 18:11

"For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost."

John 12:46"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctlythat I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

John 10:10

1 John 3:8 "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."

1 John 4:9 "By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him."

1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

1 John 1:1-4 "We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

-supercharged-

I see nothing in there that is incompatible with or an argument against what I'm saying. :?

I have always felt sorry for Judas, who was definitely stitched-up by God, his purpose of his whole life was basically just to betray Jesus.

Watching 'Jesus Christ Superstar' actually highlights the humanity of Judas and the raw deal he is given in order for Christianity to succeed as a hit religion. He's definitely one of Christianity's heros and I like to think God let him into heaven anyway, even though he killed himself, because a God who would set it up for Judas to do all that and then let him into heaven afterwards would just be a jerk. In my opinion.

It's not a premise; it's a conclusion. It is something that I have been lead to believe to be the case through a logical analysis of the evidence available.

GabuEx

We hadn't discussed that until recently. The discussion had been proceeding as though we were in agreement on this issue, when of course we weren't. I can take conclusions and use them as premises in future arguments. Obviously there are all sorts of conclusions we made to even enter this discussion as we did in the first place.

Then you accept that God's plan for Jesus had a meaningful chance of failing had Jesus chosen differently?

GabuEx

That follows. God's "plan" for everyone has a chance of failing. He wants everyone to love him, but without giving them a choice, it's meaningless. I don't know how to reconcile God's omniscience with also being able to give people free will, but then I don't know how to reconcile a lot of things. I put my faith in certain ideas, because I find the implications of their alternatives far worse.

I have always felt sorry for Judas, who was definitely stitched-up by God, his purpose of his whole life was basically just to betray Jesus.

Watching 'Jesus Christ Superstar' actually highlights the humanity of Judas and the raw deal he is given in order for Christianity to succeed as a hit religion. He's definitely one of Christianity's heros and I like to think God let him into heaven anyway, even though he killed himself, because a God who would set it up for Judas to do all that and then let him into heaven afterwards would just be a jerk. In my opinion.

MissLibrarian

I hear there's a Book of Judas which explains that Judas and Christ new what was happening. Some other stuff, but I haven't read it, yet.BranKetra

Though the Book of Judas is not part of the Bible. And since Judas died, he most likely did not write any book.

Watching 'Jesus Christ Superstar' actually highlights the humanity of Judas and the raw deal he is given in order for Christianity to succeed as a hit religion. He's definitely one of Christianity's heros and I like to think God let him into heaven anyway, even though he killed himself, because a God who would set it up for Judas to do all that and then let him into heaven afterwards would just be a jerk. In my opinion.MissLibrarian

JCS makes up a lot of detail to propose an alternate storyline. Most of what is attributed to Judas is either made up or attributed him from an incident performed by an anonymous Biblical player.

It's still a great musical, and I love how it uses the Biblical story as the substance of a cult of celebrity.

JCS was the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread. I was in a production of JCS back in the day. I played Caiaphas, the "evil" high priest. :Dmegagene

Or the 'low' priest if you consider what an awesome bass role it is :P I would love to have sung in a JSC production but unfortunately Mary's the only good female role and I probably wouldn't have done her justice anyway.

On topic JSC is an amazing film for making one consider the human relationships behind a rather preachy and inaccessible tale.

JCS makes up a lot of detail to propose an alternate storyline. Most of what is attributed to Judas is either made up or attributed him from an incident performed by an anonymous Biblical player.

It's still a great musical, and I love how it uses the Biblical story as the substance of a cult of celebrity.

m0zart

I'll admit I have not studied the Bible nearly enough to claim any knowledge on the accuracy of JSC, I have always considered it to be a rough representation of the story of course, in the same way that I'd not consider Calamity Jane to be an accurate portrayal of frontier America :lol:

Though it is true that JSC restored my faith when I was a young teenager living in a rather rabidly atheist society. I watched it and thought, 'yeah this makes sense, I can totally see how this happened'. And suddenly I had a belief that still has not been shaken.

Who knew 70's rock was the voice of God? *shrugs*

And since Judas died, he most likely did not write any book.

whipassmt

Didn't stop Moses. :)

The idea that Judas was destined to betray Jesus no matter what always bothered me when I was still a believer. It's like even before he was born, he was condemned to hell.Lonelynight

Him and everybody else who goes to Hell.

They were eventually going to find Jesus. Judas just made it happen alot faster.

Hatiko

I'll admit I have not studied the Bible nearly enough to claim any knowledge on the accuracy of JSC, I have always considered it to be a rough representation of the story of course, in the same way that I'd not consider Calamity Jane to be an accurate portrayal of frontier America :lol:

Though it is true that JSC restored my faith when I was a young teenager living in a rather rabidly atheist society. I watched it and thought, 'yeah this makes sense, I can totally see how this happened'. And suddenly I had a belief that still has not been shaken.

Who knew 70's rock was the voice of God? *shrugs*MissLibrarian

Heh well, JCS is a very humanistic retelling (reinventing really) of the story, so it's bound to make more sense on that level. It doesn't really have as much of the religion in it. It concentrates on human relationships. If you notice, it pays far far less attention to the purpose that scripture attributes to Jesus and far more on other players' motivations. It goes into more detail about Mary, Judas, Pilate, and other characters that we know much less about from the Biblical account.

As for Jesus and the Apostles, their portrayal is farmore one-dimensional. The apostles are portrayed as conceited and self-interested groupies, who base their worth on the celebrity they've chosen to follow around ("Always knew that I'd be an apostle, knew that I would make it if I tried, then when we retire we can write the gospels so they'll still talk about us when we die.") It portrays Jesus as an enigmatic person who enjoys making statements that are intended to be more mysterious than revelating, and seems to really enjoy his cult status. It turns him into someone who is always trying to make a public statement, but is less approachable on a personal level -- like a statue of a man that is admired from afar but can't really be "touched", or a movie star with lots of body guards and a public image agent. In fact, the only time we get to see Jesus as a man who is hurting and passionate and scared literally to death is in the song "Gethsemene", where he screams and pleads for this thing not to happen to him and gets a bit ruffled at God for putting him in this position. And it's no accident that we only see him like this when he is all alone without anyone to hear him. All alone with his prayer is the only time he isn't trying to paint a public image.

But that's the one exception. For the most part, it reserves the really interesting songs and character portrayals for those secondary characters I mentioned before. That's what I love about it though-- the same story could have been told using any celebrity personality cult that ended badly and concentrating not on the celebrity and his entourage, but on those less known people and the effect the whole experience had on them. But by choosing this particular story to outline that, it seems to hit closer to home than it would have with a more modern choice.

>

Heh well, JCS is a very humanistic retelling (reinventing really) of the story, so it's bound to make more sense on that level. It doesn't really have as much of the religion in it. It concentrates on human relationships. If you notice, it pays far far less attention to the purpose that scripture attributes to Jesus and far more on other players' motivations. It goes into more detail about Mary, Judas, Pilate, and other characters that we know much less about from the Biblical account.

As for Jesus and the Apostles, their portrayal is farmore one-dimensional. The apostles are portrayed as conceited and self-interested groupies, who base their worth on the celebrity they've chosen to follow around ("Always knew that I'd be an apostle, knew that I would make it if I tried, then when we retire we can write the gospels so they'll still talk about us when we die.") It portrays Jesus as an enigmatic person who enjoys making statements that are intended to be more mysterious than revelating, and seems to really enjoy his cult status. It turns him into someone who is always trying to make a public statement, but is less approachable on a personal level -- like a statue of a man that is admired from afar but can't really be "touched", or a movie star with lots of body guards and a public image agent. In fact, the only time we get to see Jesus as a man who is hurting and passionate and scared literally to death is in the song "Gethsemene", where he screams and pleads for this thing not to happen to him and gets a bit ruffled at God for putting him in this position. And it's no accident that we only see him like this when he is all alone without anyone to hear him. All alone with his prayer is the only time he isn't trying to paint a public image.

But that's the one exception. For the most part, it reserves the really interesting songs and character portrayals for those secondary characters I mentioned before. That's what I love about it though-- the same story could have been told using any celebrity personality cult that ended badly and concentrating not on the celebrity and his entourage, but on those less known people and the effect the whole experience had on them. But by choosing this particular story to outline that, it seems to hit closer to home than it would have with a more modern choice.

m0zart

There's also the chance to show the epic ramifications of their choices, using the Christian religion as the focus, the vastness of the modern-day religion can be subtly pinned onto the actions of these few humans 2000 odd years ago. I think my favourite song in the whole production is when Pilate describes his dream about the Galilean, set upon by a room of angry men, only to leave thousands of millions mourning him while he hears them 'mentioning my name, and leaving me the blame'. I also adore Judas' juxtaposition of awesome funk rock at the end - 'Did you mean to die like that? Was that a mistake or did you know you message would be a record breaker?' They're both the sort of arrogant statements you can only make as writer if you know how it turned out :)

I actually liked the way they chose to portray the Apostles as 'groupies' as well, I suppose since I had gone to a Church of England primary school I had always been told the Christian moral tales in a very traditional way, and I had always imagined the Apostles to be like a cIass full of goodie-goodies who blindly followed their teacher's advice without question. Thinking about it from a different angle, like JCS let me do, I could see them as humans more than just characters in 'The Good Book'.

As a would-be writer and historian the Bible rankles me for various reasons, on the one hand I find it generally too speculative and constantly re-interpreted to be of any real value as a historical source, while one the other it is too 'textbook' and lecturing to be a fun and exciting work of folklore or fiction. It is an incredible piece of work, chock-full of inspiring and illuminating characters, beautifully lyrical fables and a genuinely workable moral code, not to mention it being an incredible source and insight into society thousands of years ago. But it's 'Thou Shalt' attitude is just too heavy to crack through often, and that is some that has been instilled in it much later anyway I believe, by various men with a lot of power and money. JCS broke down that barrier for me with the help of Carl Anderson and loon pants :lol:

But seriously the way it made me consider the humanity of the characters in the Bible during the time of the Crucifixion made me consider the same humanity in the other characters when I re-read the bible after watching it. I read through both Testaments imagining the life of each one through the eyes of a writer, rather than a sceptical would-be follower, and was more touched by the advice it offered than I ever had been before.

Before I had always though of Jesus as a bit too preachy and a goody-two-shoes, and how wasn't he so awesome for sacrificing himself for us all, and don't you want to be a better person because of him? I was like, 'yeah, props for that, but you knew you were going to heaven and it was for the sake of the Christian religion and all that, it's not like there wasn't anything in it for you'. But when I see a man who forgives a well-meaning friend despite knowing he'll be tortured or executed because of that friend's actions, and stays true to his convictions despite the fact that it's not the trend any more, and even though he suspects his closest friends no longer see him as a comrade but more of a cashcow he's still willing to sacrifice himself so they might gain profound enlightenment - well that's someone I can admire and believe in.

/end random JSC/Religion claptrap.

We hadn't discussed that until recently. The discussion had been proceeding as though we were in agreement on this issue, when of course we weren't. I can take conclusions and use them as premises in future arguments. Obviously there are all sorts of conclusions we made to even enter this discussion as we did in the first place.

Palantas

OK, fair enough, I thought you were saying that I was taking that as an assumption.

That follows. God's "plan" for everyone has a chance of failing. He wants everyone to love him, but without giving them a choice, it's meaningless. I don't know how to reconcile God's omniscience with also being able to give people free will, but then I don't know how to reconcile a lot of things. I put my faith in certain ideas, because I find the implications of their alternatives far worse.

Palantas

OK then, fair enough, I suppose, although I find it a bit strange that you would consciously reject an idea simply because you don't like what it would mean if it were true. Reality hits everyone sooner or later; preparing for it ahead of time by being open to it, whatever it is, tends to make the transition smoother.

OK then, fair enough, I suppose, although I find it a bit strange that you would consciously reject an idea simply because you don't like what it would mean if it were true. Reality hits everyone sooner or later; preparing for it ahead of time by being open to it, whatever it is, tends to make the transition smoother.

GabuEx

When faced with mutually exclusive possibilities, and lacking the tools to prove (in any meaningful sense) which one is correct, I look at the ramifications of those possibilities. I reject radical skepticism, because if I don't, then further inquiry into life and the universe are pointless. A while back, someone on this forum said something to the effect of "Because my senses can be fooled, my reason can also be fooled by some mechanism I cannot describe, therefore I should not trust my reason." I reject that also, because the ramifications of it are self-defeating.