Members of Congress to introduce federal measure to legalize marijuana

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]Welfare is more than just paying people who are unemployed. It also gives benefits to those unable to work through disabilities mental and physical. HoolaHoopMan

I'm fine with giving benefits to those who are disabled, either mentally or physically.

So you DO support part of the welfare state. ;)

Whooo! Six down, five hundred and twenty-nine to go! At this rate a bill like this will pass Congress in another 6,600 years!

Whooo! Six down, five hundred and twenty-nine to go! At this rate a bill like this will pass Congress in another 6,600 years!

theone86

Six bills out of five hundred and twenty-nine?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Whooo! Six down, five hundred and twenty-nine to go! At this rate a bill like this will pass Congress in another 6,600 years!

airshocker

Six bills out of five hundred and twenty-nine?

Six congressmen out of 535.

Six congressmen out of 535.

theone86

Ah.

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

I don't trust people to take care of people who have just lost their job or the elderly on their own.

airshocker

Doesn't matter in the slightest. It's not our job to take care of those who have lost their job. Let me know when it does.

Whooo! Six down, five hundred and twenty-nine to go! At this rate a bill like this will pass Congress in another 6,600 years!

theone86

It's got a foothold, in nothern California especially. I figure it'll spread faster than 6,000 years. I hope so, anyway.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="I"]

We're not debating the reasons. We're debating that the reasons are more than "We don't feel like it," as you claim (ironically, while you complain about people being uniformed in the same breath). Do you understand?

Palantas

Well you saying that the reasons are more than "we don't feel like it" and not providing any reasons really doesn't help your case. Maybe you should learn of YellowOneKinobi, he actually is debating about reasons and, therefore, providing something meaningful to the discussion.

Oh, and your straw man argument did provide something meaningful to the discussion? How's that?

So...you're actually challenging me to go find reasons, reasons other than "We don't feel like it"? Well...all right. I figured you'd just concede the point, but fine. Let's see how long this takes... :: starts watch ::

:: Done ::

http://balancedpolitics.org/marijuana_legalization.htm

http://usliberals.about.com/od/patriotactcivilrights/i/MarijuanaProCon_2.htm

There. That took 20 seconds. It took 20 seconds of research for me to discover that your statement was incorrect. Some of the anti-marijuana arguments include it being a gateway drug, moral issues, and concerns about second-hand smoke. You probably don't agree with any of those, but that's not the point. Now, here's a distinction I know you're going to have a hell of a time making: That someone's arguments are wrong, poorly deliberated upon, or misunderstood does not mean they don't exist at all, and that their reason is simply "We feel like it."

Always has been and should be the responsibility of socioty to look out for one another.

CaveJohnson1

No it actually hasn't. Don't pass your opinions off as facts.

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

Always has been and should be the responsibility of socioty to look out for one another.

airshocker

No it actually hasn't. Don't pass your opinions off as facts.

I love all the "I've never smoked weed and never will,but..." comments in here, just a buncha smokers tryin to cover their asses. :lol:

By the way I do support the full legalization of cannabis, and I HAVE smoked marijuana and I'm not afraid to say it.

Jfisch93

Will the moderation really be worth it?

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

Always has been and should be the responsibility of socioty to look out for one another.

airshocker

No it actually hasn't. Don't pass your opinions off as facts.

Actually as far as human history is concerned, we couldn't live in societies where people don't take care of each other since we are a social species. That means we basically have no choice and that's far from an opinion.kuraimen

There are different ways of taking care of someone. For instance, I take care of my family and close friends. I help out in my community because it's where I live and I'd like to see it become a better place. I'm still staunchly against welfare.

We may be a social species, but societies have gotten along just fine without massive amounts of welfare.

[QUOTE="Jfisch93"]

I love all the "I've never smoked weed and never will,but..." comments in here, just a buncha smokers tryin to cover their asses. :lol:

By the way I do support the full legalization of cannabis, and I HAVE smoked marijuana and I'm not afraid to say it.

airshocker

Will the moderation really be worth it?

yes it has, don't try to pass ur nihilism across as just.

CaveJohnson1

Waiting on your proof.

It's not nihilistic to want to see an end to welfare. It's in fact absolutely normal and a worthwhile goal.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]Actually as far as human history is concerned, we couldn't live in societies where people don't take care of each other since we are a social species. That means we basically have no choice and that's far from an opinion.airshocker

There are different ways of taking care of someone. For instance, I take care of my family and close friends. I help out in my community because it's where I live and I'd like to see it become a better place. I'm still staunchly against welfare.

We may be a social species, but societies have gotten along just fine without massive amounts of welfare.

according to the guidelines this whole thread is against the rules.

Jfisch93

Not really.

Oh ok, I thought you were saying that a human could survive in a completely individual way which is not the case. But yeah there are different ways to help other people. I still think that a kind of welfare is necessary for today's society but it's definitely not the answer to everything and can be turned into a dangerous burden if not done right.kuraimen

Some, but not the system we currently have.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

So you DO support part of the welfare state. ;)

airshocker

I've always supported part of it. There are some people who genuinely need help. Those who lose their jobs should get a few months of breathing room, but I really don't care if the job they find is demeaning or doesn't pay enough. They should be forced to work it.

Either way some of those are reasons yes...kuraimen

You're acknowledging that there is more to the anti-legalization argument than "I feel this way," then?

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Either way some of those are reasons yes...Palantas

You're acknowledging that there is more to the anti-legalization argument than "I feel this way," then?

Yes I was simplifying their argument. Besides most of those reasons are some of the ones raised by Yellow which I already answered to. Since most of those reasons have good counterarguments people against it mostly end up saying "because it's bad" without further reasoning or development. At least that's my experience with the anti-decriminalization crowd.kuraimen

That's not "simplifying" an argument. Simplifying would involve eliminating excess verbage, redundant evidence, or logical fallacies. Going from a statistical argument to "Because it's bad" is not simplifying. That is totally changing someone's argument into a straw man.

i live in the ghetto...everyone works...

bunny569

I see.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]Yes I was simplifying their argument. Besides most of those reasons are some of the ones raised by Yellow which I already answered to. Since most of those reasons have good counterarguments people against it mostly end up saying "because it's bad" without further reasoning or development. At least that's my experience with the anti-decriminalization crowd.Palantas

That's not "simplifying" an argument. Simplifying would involve eliminating excess verbage, redundant evidence, or logical fallacies. Going from a statistical argument to "Because it's bad" is not simplifying. That is totally changing someone's argument into a straw man.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]Actually as far as human history is concerned, we couldn't live in societies where people don't take care of each other since we are a social species. That means we basically have no choice and that's far from an opinion.airshocker

There are different ways of taking care of someone. For instance, I take care of my family and close friends. I help out in my community because it's where I live and I'd like to see it become a better place. I'm still staunchly against welfare.

We may be a social species, but societies have gotten along just fine without massive amounts of welfare.

I'll simplify my argument like this: I don't care if you don't like my argument, I have made my point normally with most people in this thread without having to put every message I write through the Palanta's filter for semantical and grammatical considerations so if you don't like it too bad.kuraimen

My issue with your statement was not semantical or grammatical. It was logical, and even after all the posting you've done on this forum, you still can't tell the damn difference. At which point did I take issue with either your choice of words or your grammar? Where?

[QUOTE="CaveJohnson1"]

yes it has, don't try to pass ur nihilism across as just.

airshocker

Waiting on your proof.

It's not nihilistic to want to see an end to welfare. It's in fact absolutely normal and a worthwhile goal.

No, it's nihilism, your attitude shows a complete lack in faith of the capabilities of others and socioty as a whole.

getting rid of welfare and related programs would literally kill people who are dependent on it for food, put people out on the street who have recently been laid off (kinda a big problem in the last few years), and increase the wealth devide between the rich/poor.

Every developed country (and even some undeveloped ones) have welfare in one form or another, it's not perfect, but its nessasary, and without it, many people would suffer.

If I can't get an AK-47 in California, then I want my damn marijuana!

SLS97

Well I guess we might disagree with who "Genuinely needs help". I'm guessing there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't bat an eye lash if every last mentally disabled person were left rotting on the streets with out income or a roof over their head. Personally I believe that an effective welfare state helps everyone in the end. HoolaHoopMan

As I'm sure there are plenty of people who want the government to take care of everyone's needs.

I believe an effective welfare system takes care of people in the end, but espouses personal resposibility. Something our system currently lacks, I think.

[QUOTE="airshocker"]

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

So you DO support part of the welfare state. ;)

HoolaHoopMan

I've always supported part of it. There are some people who genuinely need help. Those who lose their jobs should get a few months of breathing room, but I really don't care if the job they find is demeaning or doesn't pay enough. They should be forced to work it.

What proof? That doesn't even make sense, it's more of an idea that people actually care about one another, as opposed to just saying **** you when other fall on hard times.

No, it's nihilism, your attitude shows a complete lack in faith of the capabilities of others and socioty as a whole.

getting rid of welfare and related programs would literally kill people who are dependent on it for food, put people out on the street who have recently been laid off (kinda a big problem in the last few years), and increase the wealth devide between the rich/poor.

Every developed country (and even some undeveloped ones) have welfare in one form or another, it's not perfect, but its nessasary, and without it, many people would suffer.

CaveJohnson1

Show me, in our founding documents, where it says society as a whole has to take care of other people.

Apparently you don't know what the word means because I'm not it. What capabilities do others have? When they're on welfare all they are is one more mouth to feed. They have the capability to live off the government teat, but I'm pretty sure that's not a good thing. Of course I have a lack of faith in people of my country. For one, they voted for Obama, but that's a different matter entirely.

So your solution to fixing welfare is to tax others and kill them too, only in a much slower way. That's surely what taxation is, especially the kind in my state.

Unfortunately, for the very reasons you've just stated, we can't kill off welfare entirely. But we can limit the benefits, and prevent more people from getting it.

I'm not going to respond specifically to such an insulting post, particularly when the complaints in it are not even valid. You weren't using "simplify" as a figure of speech. There is no possible definition of "simplify" which would describe what you did. More to the point, figurative language has no place in a logical argument. I run into people from time to time who like to defend their bogus arguments and false statements by complaining that I'm taking them literally. If you are writing an argument (as opposed to a poem), or rebutting an argument,there is no reason to speak otherwise.

I don't know what might have happened to make you think there's no hope for humanity.

CaveJohnson1

I'm not sure where you got that in Airshocker's opinions. Did I miss something?

Yeah I'm gonna go with nihilism, it's kinda sad to be honest, I don't know what might have happened to make you think there's no hope for humanity. there's no point in any more talking here, you view every person on welfare as some bum living off the government, you completely ignore the elderly, recently unemployed, physically mentally disabled, ect.

CaveJohnson1

ni·hil·ism   [nahy-uh-liz-uhm,nee-]

–noun

1.totalrejectionofestablishedlawsandinstitutions.2.anarchy,terrorism,orotherrevolutionaryactivity.3.totalandabsolutedestructiveness,especiallytowardtheworldatlargeandincludingoneself.

I concede, I am nihilistic. I utterly and completely reject this welfare institution we have. No, there's always hope. Once we get rid of as much of this nonsense as possible. Just because I didn't mention the elderly in my post doesn't mean I'm ignoring them. I just have no sympathy for those who didn't prepare themselves adequately for retirement. Also, I believe I already said I support benefits for the mentally and physically disabled. Good day to you. :)

[QUOTE="bunny569"]

i live in the ghetto...everyone works...

Palantas

I see.

it will never happen. the pharmacology industry would lose billions from the decline in pain killers and anti depressant prescriptions.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="I"]

We're not debating the reasons. We're debating that the reasons are more than "We don't feel like it," as you claim (ironically, while you complain about people being uniformed in the same breath). Do you understand?

Palantas

Well you saying that the reasons are more than "we don't feel like it" and not providing any reasons really doesn't help your case. Maybe you should learn of YellowOneKinobi, he actually is debating about reasons and, therefore, providing something meaningful to the discussion.

Oh, and your straw man argument did provide something meaningful to the discussion? How's that?

So...you're actually challenging me to go find reasons, reasons other than "We don't feel like it"? Well...all right. I figured you'd just concede the point, but fine. Let's see how long this takes... :: starts watch ::

:: Done ::

http://balancedpolitics.org/marijuana_legalization.htm

http://usliberals.about.com/od/patriotactcivilrights/i/MarijuanaProCon_2.htm

There. That took 20 seconds. It took 20 seconds of research for me to discover that your statement was incorrect. Some of the anti-marijuana arguments include it being a gateway drug, moral issues, and concerns about second-hand smoke. You probably don't agree with any of those, but that's not the point. Now, here's a distinction I know you're going to have a hell of a time making: That someone's arguments are wrong, poorly deliberated upon, or misunderstood does not mean they don't exist at all, and that their reason is simply "We feel like it."

2. Stoned driving and other dangers would be increased.- LOL yeah okay, we have more stoned drivers today than ever, more than DUI's. Find me a death or vehicle accident due to cannabis use. or even a death.

3. Some consider use of the drug as morally wrong.- Our founding fathers didn't, infact if you were a farmer you were required by law to grow a certain ammount of hemp.

4. Legalization would increase the chances of the drug falling into the hands of kids - Wrong, Drug dealers dont card, nor care about age, a drug dealer is just around the corner and its as easy for a kid to get a sack of herb for a kid today, i see 13yr old kids smoking, do you see 13yr old kids drinking? of course not.

5. Because of drug-related arrests, people who have committed or are likely to commit more serious crimes can be taken off the streets. Drug dealers are a black market, when there is a demand, they will meet it. Drug dealers know there is money in weed, and their "real" drugs like cocaine, and meth ect. is mixed in with the the marijuanna for this reason. So its only logic as to why marijuanna is even brought up to be in connection of violence in the first place.

6. Physical damage would be done to users that abuse the drug.- please, as if anyone has physical damage. no one can die from cannabis use. Infact the scientific ammount needed to kill someone off cannabis use is something like 250,000 joints within one hour or so, They even gave monkeys 400x more cannabis than a human can consume and the monkey still didnt die. Funny thing also is they said cannabis smoking leads to loss of brain cell, as shows the study of the monkeys when they used a gas mask, only 6 years later after they released their full report and they found out that they never gave the monkeys any oxygen during the consumption of cannabis, so what happends when you dont get oxygen? you lose braincells... so they made THIS a connection lol

7. More widespread use would increase the dangers of secondhand smoke-damage to bystanders - Um no, there is a positive and negative about this. and understand what marijuanna really is and does to the body, is a big importance, marijuanna helps evolve our consciousness, it has many health benefits, infact since i started smoking 8 months ago, my asthma has dissapeared, And i was a born ready to die due to my asthma being so intense. The whole "high" is really a sensation of entering an unconscious state of mind. Serves its own purpose for our conscious evolution. and obviously a long list of positive benefits but i wont list them all here.

I have nothing against marijuana and I don't take any drugs, but I don't think marijuana should be legalized. Mainly because its one of the top illegal drugs to get and once its been legalized, the next top illegal drug could be a hard and dangerous drug. Which means kids or people could be overdosing and dying on very dangerous drugs. I don't smoke anything to meh to me if weed is legalized. But thats just an issue that can become a major problem if it gets legalized.

I have nothing against marijuana and I don't take any drugs, but I don't think marijuana should be legalized. Mainly because its one of the top illegal drugs to get and once its been legalized, the next top illegal drug could be a hard and dangerous drug. Which means kids or people could be overdosing and dying on very dangerous drugs. I don't smoke anything to meh to me if weed is legalized. But thats just an issue that can become a major problem if it gets legalized.

ToastRider11

[QUOTE="ToastRider11"]

I have nothing against marijuana and I don't take any drugs, but I don't think marijuana should be legalized. Mainly because its one of the top illegal drugs to get and once its been legalized, the next top illegal drug could be a hard and dangerous drug. Which means kids or people could be overdosing and dying on very dangerous drugs. I don't smoke anything to meh to me if weed is legalized. But thats just an issue that can become a major problem if it gets legalized.

DroidPhysX

I have nothing against marijuana and I don't take any drugs, but I don't think marijuana should be legalized. Mainly because its one of the top illegal drugs to get and once its been legalized, the next top illegal drug could be a hard and dangerous drug. Which means kids or people could be overdosing and dying on very dangerous drugs. I don't smoke anything to meh to me if weed is legalized. But thats just an issue that can become a major problem if it gets legalized.

ToastRider11

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="ToastRider11"]

I have nothing against marijuana and I don't take any drugs, but I don't think marijuana should be legalized. Mainly because its one of the top illegal drugs to get and once its been legalized, the next top illegal drug could be a hard and dangerous drug. Which means kids or people could be overdosing and dying on very dangerous drugs. I don't smoke anything to meh to me if weed is legalized. But thats just an issue that can become a major problem if it gets legalized.

ToastRider11