Michelle Bachmann under fire for controversial reparative theraphy

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GreySeal9

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#51 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] But if they come from conservative backgrounds, arent they being taught by their friends and family that gay is bad? Aren't they already getting that message? I'm not condoning these clinics, but I dont think they are doing anything illegal.sonicare

He diin't say they are doing anything illegal.

Even if they are all ready getting that message, to hear it from people who claim to be proffesionals is quite a bit different.

I think anybody with the least bit of brains would realize these people are quacks.

IDK about that.

If someone grows up an environment where people think being gay is a choice, they might be suckered into thinking that Bachmann's clinic can turn people straight.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#52 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"]Are gay people forced to attend these clinics?sonicare
That's a complicated question. Are gay people being rounded up and thrown into these clinics? No. But overwhelmingly, the gay people who go to these clinics are coming from very conservative backgrounds, where being gay is viewed as a huge problem, akin to something like drug addiction, and so you have family and friends pressuring these gay people to go get help, and you have gay people thinking that they need to get help, so they check themselves in to get "reparative therapy" where they are taught how bad and disgusting it is to be gay

But if they come from conservative backgrounds, arent they being taught by their friends and family that gay is bad? Aren't they already getting that message? I'm not condoning these clinics, but I dont think they are doing anything illegal.

They aren't doing anything illegal (as far as we know), but it is ethically questionable for people to offer this service.
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kuraimen

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#53 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts

[QUOTE="Ace6301"][QUOTE="Ravirr"]

But if they willing go whats wrong with that? Its like trans gender. Its not a matter of right or wrong, its a matter how they feel. Trans genders don't feel right in their body. And I'm sure transgender surgery was just as contraversial but now its accepted. Could this possible be the same? It may be once we find for lack of a better word what makes peoples attracted to the same gender. IF they don't feel right with it, why can't they seek help to change?

Ravirr

I just feel that gay people probably wouldn't feel bad about being gay if it weren't for the societal pressures to be straight. This just enforces that idea that there's something wrong with being gay and that it's something that should be fixed. Maybe you're right and it should be an option but from what I've heard the treatments aren't exactly very professional nor do they have very successful results.

Never said the treatment were effective now. Majora's wraith is 100% right in what he posted. Its pretty terrible. But perhaps later on it could be on option. My posts were just mainly food for thought.

I think it could be an option if it's ran by non-prejudiced people which is the opposite of what happens now.
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Vandalvideo

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#54 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
@Grey It isn't like there has been definitive proof of the cause of homosexuality. Given the lack of evidence, who cares what message we send? These are consenting adults who wish to change their lifestyles. Far be it for any of us to push a life style on them they don't want.
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tonyjay87

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#55 tonyjay87
Member since 2011 • 46 Posts

Homosexual activity is both degrading and dangerous. It is estimated that 20% of all gay men are HIV positive. There is nothing wrong with helping people supress their same sex attraction.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/study-20-of-homosexual-men-are-hiv-positive-but-only-half-know-it/

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GreySeal9

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#56 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

@Grey It isn't like there has been definitive proof of the cause of homosexuality. Given the lack of evidence, who cares what message we send? These are consenting adults who wish to change their lifestyles. Far be it for any of us to push a life style on them they don't want.Vandalvideo

Nobody here is pushing anything on anybody. We're just attacking the idea of ths "therapy".

Also, to say it doesn't matter what message we send since there's no definitive proof is absolute nonsense. We do know that some people are gay and messages still have powerful effects on people even if there is no definitive proof of the cause.

The issue of "cause" is a red herring.

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GreySeal9

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#57 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Homosexual activity is both degrading and dangerous. It is estimated that 20% of all gay men are HIV positive. There is nothing wrong with helping people supress their same sex attraction.

tonyjay87

And what is your basis for this statement?

Also, considering that suppressing homosexuals can lead to psychological issues, I'd say there is something wrong with going that route.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#58 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts
If gay people want to go to these clinics, then I really don't see the problem here. It's not like they're kidnapping gay people and sending them to work camps to "cure" them or something.Mario2007
I still see a problem where a bunch of frauds are charging people money for something that they can't "cure".
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The_Pacific

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#59 The_Pacific
Member since 2011 • 1804 Posts
And she thinks she has a shot at becoming president :lol: I hope republicans pick her for their ticket, then she can pick palin as her running mate.
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Vandalvideo

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#60 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
Nobody here is pushing anything on anybody. We're just questioning this "therapy". Also, to say it doesn't matter what message we send since there's no definitive proof is absolute nonsense. We do know that some people are gay and messages still have powerful effects on people even if there is no definitive proof of the cause. The issue of "cause" is a red herring.GreySeal9
But by ridiculing and questioning the therapy, you're sending the message that someone ought not to engage in it; an activity which could be the answer for people who wish to remove themselves from that life style. It goes both ways. And no, the point about cause is entirely relevant. In the absence of undeniable proof of the cause, it is just as tyrannical on the people to send the message that this is something they ought not to be doing. You could be discouraging a perfectly viable cure.
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MrEnvelope

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#61 MrEnvelope
Member since 2007 • 2424 Posts

Homosexual activity is both degrading and dangerous. It is estimated that 20% of all gay men are HIV positive. There is nothing wrong with helping people supress their same sex attraction.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/study-20-of-homosexual-men-are-hiv-positive-but-only-half-know-it/

tonyjay87

I am speechless, I truly do not know how to respond to this comment. Trying to come up with a witty response but I failed. Yes, homosexuals have a higher risk of getting aids through anal sex, but that doesn't make homosexuality by itself degrading and dangerous. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, the life of a homosexual is identical to the life of a hetersexual male. I just don't get arguments like this. I'll just post a picture of potato due to my lack of words.

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GreySeal9

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#63 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]Nobody here is pushing anything on anybody. We're just questioning this "therapy". Also, to say it doesn't matter what message we send since there's no definitive proof is absolute nonsense. We do know that some people are gay and messages still have powerful effects on people even if there is no definitive proof of the cause. The issue of "cause" is a red herring.Vandalvideo
But by ridiculing and questioning the therapy, you're sending the message that someone ought not to engage in it; an activity which could be the answer for people who wish to remove themselves from that life style. It goes both ways.

So what? I do believe that ths therapy is nonsense, sends bad messages, and is not a good option. That doesn't mean I'd stop anybody from taking that option. They can do whatever they want. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

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Chutebox

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#64 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51638 Posts

Oh no, now she won't get all those gay votes.....

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GreySeal9

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#65 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="tonyjay87"]

Homosexual activity is both degrading and dangerous. It is estimated that 20% of all gay men are HIV positive. There is nothing wrong with helping people supress their same sex attraction.

tonyjay87

And what is your basis for this statement?

Also, considering that suppressing homosexuals can lead to psychological issues, I'd say there is something wrong with going that route.

Having a certain region of ones body violated by another man would be considered degrading by most people.

Violated? How is there violation if it's consentual?

Also, saying most people think something (which you would have to back up) is not a basis for anything.

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MrEnvelope

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#66 MrEnvelope
Member since 2007 • 2424 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="tonyjay87"]

Homosexual activity is both degrading and dangerous. It is estimated that 20% of all gay men are HIV positive. There is nothing wrong with helping people supress their same sex attraction.

tonyjay87

And what is your basis for this statement?

Also, considering that suppressing homosexuals can lead to psychological issues, I'd say there is something wrong with going that route.

Having a certain region of ones body violated by another man would be considered degrading by most people.

Don't like it... don't do it. Why should you care about what somebody does in the privacy of their bedrooms? :?

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GreySeal9

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#67 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Oh no, now she won't get all those gay votes.....

Chutebox

It's not an issue of getting gay votes. It is an issue of ethics and values.

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Vandalvideo

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#68 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
So what? I do believe that ths therapy is nonsense, sends bad messages, and is not a good option. That doesn't mean I'd stop anybody from taking that option. They can do whatever they want. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.GreySeal9
Whether or not you would directly stop anyone is entirely irrelevant. You're the one who started talking about sending messages. Your vocal dissent and critique of it without undeniable proof has both the potential to be discouraging to people seeking a viable cure and it also fails to recognize that we simply don't know the extent to which this therapy works. In the absence of undeniable proof, it is rude to indirectly discourage these people.
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#69 mrmusicman247
Member since 2008 • 17601 Posts
Being gay isn't a virus. Neither is stupidity but it sure is spreading like one.
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GreySeal9

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#70 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]So what? I do believe that ths therapy is nonsense, sends bad messages, and is not a good option. That doesn't mean I'd stop anybody from taking that option. They can do whatever they want. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.Vandalvideo
Whether or not you would directly stop anyone is entirely irrelevant. You're the one who started talking about sending messages. Your vocal dissent and critique of it without undeniable proof has both the potential to be discouraging to people seeking a viable cure and it also fails to recognize that we simply don't know the extent to which this therapy works. In the absence of undeniable proof, it is rude to indirectly discourage these people.

It is not a viable cure (most psychologists agree that it is nonsense) and I find it to be on shaky groud in a moral sense, so I don't care if my message discourages anyone from these kind of "treatmeents." Actually, I hope it does and I don't care if you think that is rude.

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Vandalvideo

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#71 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
It is not a viable cure (most psychologists agree that it is nonsense) and I find it to be on shaky groud in a moral sense, so I don't care if my message discourages anyone from these kind of "treatmeents." Actually, I hope it does and I don't care if you think that is rude.GreySeal9
Alright then, if you are so adamant that it is not a viable cure, lets see the proof.
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#72 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51638 Posts

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]

Oh no, now she won't get all those gay votes.....

GreySeal9

It's not an issue of getting gay votes. It is an issue of ethics and values.

It offends you people that others would rather not be gay and would like to do something about it? Pretty sure this company doesn't force you into this program, no?

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DroidPhysX

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#74 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts
[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]It is not a viable cure (most psychologists agree that it is nonsense) and I find it to be on shaky groud in a moral sense, so I don't care if my message discourages anyone from these kind of "treatmeents." Actually, I hope it does and I don't care if you think that is rude.Vandalvideo
Alright then, if you are so adamant that it is not a viable cure, lets see the proof.

Hold on, you think prayer is a viable cure?
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#75 MrEnvelope
Member since 2007 • 2424 Posts
[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]It is not a viable cure (most psychologists agree that it is nonsense) and I find it to be on shaky groud in a moral sense, so I don't care if my message discourages anyone from these kind of "treatmeents." Actually, I hope it does and I don't care if you think that is rude.Vandalvideo
Alright then, if you are so adamant that it is not a viable cure, lets see the proof.

Just google it dude... most (if not all) american psychological and psychiatric associations that have covered the topic have publicly said that such "treatments" are nothing but harmful BS.
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GreySeal9

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#76 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]It is not a viable cure (most psychologists agree that it is nonsense) and I find it to be on shaky groud in a moral sense, so I don't care if my message discourages anyone from these kind of "treatmeents." Actually, I hope it does and I don't care if you think that is rude.Vandalvideo
Alright then, if you are so adamant that it is not a viable cure, lets see the proof.

In the absence of an example of someone being "cured" and the abundance of psychological experts saying that it is nonsense, I see no reason to believe it is a viable cure.

Also, I don't think homosexuality is something that needs to be cured. I think society's attitudes need to be cured.

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MrEnvelope

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#78 MrEnvelope
Member since 2007 • 2424 Posts

[QUOTE="tonyjay87"]

Homosexual activity is both degrading and dangerous. It is estimated that 20% of all gay men are HIV positive. There is nothing wrong with helping people supress their same sex attraction.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/study-20-of-homosexual-men-are-hiv-positive-but-only-half-know-it/

Orayus

Being gay goes against nature, its unatural, if its not a choice then they were born with an illness like autism or down syndrome.

If it is an illness... then can I just miss school every day for waking up queer every morning? :o

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GreySeal9

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#80 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]

Oh no, now she won't get all those gay votes.....

Chutebox

It's not an issue of getting gay votes. It is an issue of ethics and values.

It offends you people that others would rather not be gay and would like to do something about it? Pretty sure this company doesn't force you into this program, no?

No, it offends me that certain people are trying to make being homosexuality a bad thing an propose a potentially pychologically harmful solution

I think to tell people that you can "not be gay is downright dishonest and does not help them..

But if you think being gay is something bad, I wouldn't expecct you to understand.

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DroidPhysX

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#81 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts
[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"] Alright then, if you are so adamant that it is not a viable cure, lets see the proof. Orayus

In the absence of an example of someone being "cured" and the abundance of psychological experts saying that it is nonsense, I see no reason to believe it is a viable cure.

Also, I don't think homosexuality is something that needs to be cured. I think society's attitudes need to be cured.

Homosexuality has to be cured

You're assuming it's a disease. Can you back that up?
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GreySeal9

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#83 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"] Alright then, if you are so adamant that it is not a viable cure, lets see the proof. Orayus

In the absence of an example of someone being "cured" and the abundance of psychological experts saying that it is nonsense, I see no reason to believe it is a viable cure.

Also, I don't think homosexuality is something that needs to be cured. I think society's attitudes need to be cured.

Homosexuality has to be cured

Why? And how do you "cure" it?

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Vandalvideo

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#84 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
In the absence of an example of someone being "cured" and the abundance of psychological experts saying that it is nonsense, I see no reason to believe it is a viable cure. Also, I don't think homosexuality is something that needs to be cured. I think society's attitudes need to be cured.GreySeal9
Third time I've had to say this today, but the absence of a reason to believe is not reason to disbelieve. I would like evidence which definitively shows that prayer is not a viable cure. And to the other poster: Whether I think it is a viable cure is not on the table at the moment.
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DroidPhysX

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#85 DroidPhysX
Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts
We should use science to cure diseases like cancer and homosexuality Orayus
Please provide proof that homosexuality is a disease.
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#86 MrEnvelope
Member since 2007 • 2424 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"] Alright then, if you are so adamant that it is not a viable cure, lets see the proof. Orayus

In the absence of an example of someone being "cured" and the abundance of psychological experts saying that it is nonsense, I see no reason to believe it is a viable cure.

Also, I don't think homosexuality is something that needs to be cured. I think society's attitudes need to be cured.

Homosexuality has to be cured

May I ask what difference does it make to you if some other person is gay or not? Why do you care about how a person lives his/her life? Live your life and let others live theirs. Why worry about someone else? Or are you yourself a homosexual in denial that is madly looking for a cure to something that is not a disease? :o

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GreySeal9

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#87 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="tonyjay87"]

Having a certain region of ones body violated by another man would be considered degrading by most people.

tonyjay87

Violated? How is there violation if it's consentual?

Also, saying most people think something (which you would have to back up) is not a basis for anything.

It's a violation because it was not designed to go in there. Having foriegn objects shoved up that perticular orifice can cause serious damage to the body.

The fact that homosexuality is condemned in the vast majority of cultures is what backs it up. It's one of the few things they nearly all agree on.

That is not the definition of violation.

Also, you don't evn know that it is was designed at all, so you really can't make any credible argument about design.

Thirdly, saying that it is widely condemned is not a valid argument. It is an appeal to popularity fallacy.

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PeaceChild90

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#88 PeaceChild90
Member since 2009 • 781 Posts

We should use science to cure diseases like cancer and homosexuality Orayus

:lol: This has to be a joke.

Do you think cancer or homosexuality should be cured first?

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mrbojangles25

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#89 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60943 Posts

this proves just how out of touch conservatives are in their thinking, both socially, economically, and politically. Not republicans, mind you...conservatives

Running clinics like this implies homosexuality is a choice, and last time I checked no one chose to be gay.

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Chutebox

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#90 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51638 Posts

[QUOTE="Chutebox"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

It's not an issue of getting gay votes. It is an issue of ethics and values.

GreySeal9

It offends you people that others would rather not be gay and would like to do something about it? Pretty sure this company doesn't force you into this program, no?

No, it offends me that certain people are trying to make being homosexuality a bad thing an propose a potentially pychologically harmful solution

I think to tell people that you can "not be gay is downright dishonest and does not help them..

But if you think being gay is something bad, I wouldn't expecct you to understand.

And neither would I expect you to understand. Not saying this stuff works, but people enter into this program and others like it by their own free will, so it's their choice. Nothing to complain over. But it's a female Republican going for President, so lets make a huge deal out of it.
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GreySeal9

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#91 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]In the absence of an example of someone being "cured" and the abundance of psychological experts saying that it is nonsense, I see no reason to believe it is a viable cure. Also, I don't think homosexuality is something that needs to be cured. I think society's attitudes need to be cured.Vandalvideo
Third time I've had to say this today, but the absence of a reason to believe is not reason to disbelieve. I would like evidence which definitively shows that prayer is not a viable cure. And to the other poster: Whether I think it is a viable cure is not on the table at the moment.

That's your opinion.

If some proposes a cure, then I expect to see some evidence backing it up before I consider it viable.

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Chutebox

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#92 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51638 Posts
[QUOTE="Orayus"]We should use science to cure diseases like cancer and homosexuality DroidPhysX
Please provide proof that homosexuality is a disease.

It's not a disease...but it is not normal either. Their is literally nothing "normal" with homosexuality.
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GreySeal9

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#93 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Chutebox"] It offends you people that others would rather not be gay and would like to do something about it? Pretty sure this company doesn't force you into this program, no?

Chutebox

No, it offends me that certain people are trying to make being homosexuality a bad thing an propose a potentially pychologically harmful solution

I think to tell people that you can "not be gay is downright dishonest and does not help them..

But if you think being gay is something bad, I wouldn't expecct you to understand.

And neither would I expect you to understand. Not saying this stuff works, but people enter into this program and others like it by their own free will, so it's their choice. Nothing to complain over. But it's a female Republican going for President, so lets make a huge deal out of it.

This is irrelevant and pretty much displays the awful victim complex in the conservative movement these days.

Nobody is saying that it's not their free choice, but that does not mean we can't critisize programs that we find morally questionable.

If one thinks that these programs do damage to gay people, then yes, it is a big deal.

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PeaceChild90

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#94 PeaceChild90
Member since 2009 • 781 Posts

Wait, is this the same women who's terrified of lesbians because one tried to talk to her in a bathroom once?

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GreySeal9

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#95 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="Orayus"]We should use science to cure diseases like cancer and homosexuality Chutebox
Please provide proof that homosexuality is a disease.

It's not a disease...but it is not normal either. Their is literally nothing "normal" with homosexuality.

That depends entirely on your definition of normal.

And even if it is abnormal, so what?

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Chutebox

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#97 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51638 Posts

[QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

No, it offends me that certain people are trying to make being homosexuality a bad thing an propose a potentially pychologically harmful solution

I think to tell people that you can "not be gay is downright dishonest and does not help them..

But if you think being gay is something bad, I wouldn't expecct you to understand.

GreySeal9

And neither would I expect you to understand. Not saying this stuff works, but people enter into this program and others like it by their own free will, so it's their choice. Nothing to complain over. But it's a female Republican going for President, so lets make a huge deal out of it.

This is irrelevant and pretty much displays the awful victim complex in the conservative movement these days.

Nobody is saying that it's not their free choice, but that does not mean we can't critisize programs that we find morally questionable.

If one thinks that these programs do damage to gay people, then yes, it is a big deal.

Lol, if you pay attention there is no complex. But enough of that. You can criticize all you want, I know most people here are liberal and that's fine. I'm just saying I don't see the big deal if they volunteer to go in by their own free will. I don't know what they do in these programs, so I'll refrain from saying whether they're helpful or harmful.
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Vandalvideo

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#98 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
That's your opinion If some proposes a cure, then I expect to see some evidence backing it up before I consider it viable.GreySeal9
Opinion? No, its schrodinger's cat. Logic 101. Until something has been definitively shown to not be or to be the case, it is likely that it is either the case or not the case. I would like to see definitive proof that it is not a viable cure.
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GreySeal9

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#99 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Then they were born with a virusOrayus

And what is your evidence that homosexuality meets the conditions of a virus?

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#100 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51638 Posts

[QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"] Please provide proof that homosexuality is a disease.GreySeal9

It's not a disease...but it is not normal either. Their is literally nothing "normal" with homosexuality.

That depends entirely on your definition of normal.

And even if it is abnormal, so what?

It's not normal, I don't know why people pretend it is.

Nothing. Whether it's normal or not it's still here in our world. It's not like I hate homosexuals, I just don't agree with the life they pursue. But that's their choice, much like these people choose to enter this program.