nationalized health care is scary.

4) Many people who are uninsured right now are actually middle class people who choose to self-insure rather than pay for health insurance. In fact, 2 out of 7 uninsured individuals make over 60,000 dollars per year.
newbpwnage

Self insure is the same as paying for health insurance. We need to have free health care for all citizens. Guess what....in this country people do not get surgeries they need or transplants.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Self insure is the same as paying for health insurance. We need to have free health care for all citizens. Guess what....in this country people do not get surgeries they need or transplants.gamelord2004

Then the TC should not have brought them up as a positive for private health care...however, even so, the poor have less of a chance of getting a transplant than the wealthy.  Coincidence?

[QUOTE="gamelord2004"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Self insure is the same as paying for health insurance. We need to have free health care for all citizens. Guess what....in this country people do not get surgeries they need or transplants.LJS9502_basic

Then the TC should not have brought them up as a positive for private health care...however, even so, the poor have less of a chance of getting a transplant than the wealthy. Coincidence?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="gamelord2004"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Self insure is the same as paying for health insurance. We need to have free health care for all citizens. Guess what....in this country people do not get surgeries they need or transplants.gamelord2004

Then the TC should not have brought them up as a positive for private health care...however, even so, the poor have less of a chance of getting a transplant than the wealthy. Coincidence?

First of all, you're health care is not the best in the world. Thats just your opinion. If you can find that information on a non-american owned website, please let me know because I highly doubt your health care is considered the best in the world by anyone who isn't american:lol:DJ-PRIME90

While I said it before, the reason this Nation is in a Health Care mess to begin with, isn't the system, but the consumers who have no sense of what is going on. Everyone goes to the Dr. for a cold or the flu. Consumerism is the problem in the end.LukeAF24

What's that? Someone defending our current healthcare system? Wait in the emergency room for six hours with a broken skull then we'll talk.quiglythegreat

[QUOTE="LukeAF24"]While I said it before, the reason this Nation is in a Health Care mess to begin with, isn't the system, but the consumers who have no sense of what is going on. Everyone goes to the Dr. for a cold or the flu. Consumerism is the problem in the end.newbpwnage

your very first statement is false... medicare (if you want to consider that an example of US socialized medicine) management adds approximately 1.5% overhead to the cost to provide care... most insurance companies pay a 5% dividend to its shareholders, so before they have paid a cent to healthcare or to even managing it, they have spent 3x what medicare spends to manage the same care...

if you don't have insurance and go to an ER, they will have to treat you, and they will send you a bill... which you probably will have no way of paying (at least not enough to cover the cost to provide you that care in an ER setting)... you probably should have gone to the doctor for one tenth the cost, but... oh, thats right you don't have insurance, and no doctor in his right mind would accept you as a patient without insurance...

also, by most objective outcome or quality measures, US healthcare is mediocre at best, rating pretty much in the middle of the pack of second tier countries... quality healthcare isn't about transplants, its about the simple stuff, like immunizations, childhood diseases, infectious/communicable diseases, etc...

face it, in the US, if you're lucky enough to have insurance (meaning you have a job) or have wealth and you live in a metropolitan area, you probably have pretty good access to healthcare... if you answered "no" to either of the above, then you are at significant risk in the event of poor heath...

It works in my country.Aznsilvrboy

First of all, you're health care is not the best in the world. Thats just your opinion. If you can find that information on a non-american owned website, please let me know because I highly doubt your health care is considered the best in the world by anyone who isn't american:lol:DJ-PRIME90

Actually, yes, America does have the best healthcare system in the world.  In terms of progression of research, overall survivability, and maintenance of facilities along with aseptic conditions America is definitely the best in the world.  I've talked with residents who have attended medical schools in Australia, the Middle East, East Asia, Russia, England, and other areas of Europe and they all say the same thing once they come to the U.S. 

Hell, the majority of countries in the world don't even have disposable surgical equipment and simply sit there in awe when American doctors go overseas to demonstrate our technology, achievements, and equipment. 

That's not coming from a non-american website, either.  That's coming from a person with significant medical ties.  

[QUOTE="Aznsilvrboy"]It works in my country.Zeke129

why is it scary we have it in Canada and we love itoscar530

Some of you do.  However, the Canadians and Canadian doctors that come to the U.S. and stay here tend to disagree with you. 

[QUOTE="oscar530"]why is it scary we have it in Canada and we love itdrj077

Some of you do.  However, the Canadians and Canadian doctors that come to the U.S. and stay here tend to disagree with you. 

[QUOTE="drj077"]

[QUOTE="oscar530"]why is it scary we have it in Canada and we love itsutherland19

Some of you do.  However, the Canadians and Canadian doctors that come to the U.S. and stay here tend to disagree with you. 

You'd be wrong on that one.  America has the technology and research capabilities that it has because of government funded grants and government run programs such as medicare.  The NIH funds the development of new drugs, technology, and procedures while companies pick up where the research starts to create a product that is relatively cheap and safe for patients. 

The American people pay millions and even billions of dollars every year out of pocket to keep medicare and medicaid going.  Because of this fact, pretty much any given town in America has a CT scanner, a surgeon, a general practice doctor, and the American people are allowed to continue in their ignorance, gluttony, diabetes, alcoholism, and the like. 

Of course, if you feel differently, perhaps you could convince the American public to force medical schools to lower the cost of tuition for medical school under $150,000 so that your common doctor could function appropriately in a small town instead of having to rely on medicare and people unwilling to pay their medical bills, so that they could pay back their school loans before they die of old age. 

Also, I don't think that you have any idea how much it costs to run MRI, CT, XRay, and PET scanners.  There is no way around it either.  Giant rotating magnets tend to be sort of on the expensive side in case you didn't know. 

[QUOTE="sutherland19"][QUOTE="drj077"]

[QUOTE="oscar530"]why is it scary we have it in Canada and we love itdrj077

Some of you do. However, the Canadians and Canadian doctors that come to the U.S. and stay here tend to disagree with you.

You'd be wrong on that one. America has the technology and research capabilities that it has because of government funded grants and government run programs such as medicare. The NIH funds the development of new drugs, technology, and procedures while companies pick up where the research starts to create a product that is relatively cheap and safe for patients.

The American people pay millions and even billions of dollars every year out of pocket to keep medicare and medicaid going. Because of this fact, pretty much any given town in America has a CT scanner, a surgeon, a general practice doctor, and the American people are allowed to continue in their ignorance, gluttony, diabetes, alcoholism, and the like.

Of course, if you feel differently, perhaps you could convince the American public to force medical schools to lower the cost of tuition for medical school under $150,000 so that your common doctor could function appropriately in a small town instead of having to rely on medicare and people unwilling to pay their medical bills, so that they could pay back their school loans before they die of old age.

Also, I don't think that you have any idea how much it costs to run MRI, CT, XRay, and PET scanners. There is no way around it either. Giant rotating magnets tend to be sort of on the expensive side in case you didn't know.

Man, I'll definitely agree with you about the med school bills. Not that I attend, but yeah. I can't possibly imagine taking out a mortgage on my future like that, and then having to decide how it's going to be paid off.

The gluttony and diabetes problems though, that's where your argument gets me. When people don't have health insurance here, they just don't go to a doctor. And when they don't go to a doctor, they don't get warned about diabetes or the lifestyle they're leading that could lead to a heart attack or cancer. So a few years go by and they end up in an ER where doctors due triage with the help of the really expensive equipment you described and give them bills they'll never be able to pay which end up costing taxpayers money anyway, and then prescribe medicine that they can't afford (because the drug companies have got to pay for all of those ads on TV, right) for problems that could have been staved off with some simple advice earlier in the whole process.  Meanwhile, the smartest kids from the top medical schools are working private practices in Beverly Hills and doing outpatient plastic surgery or making better boner pills at Pfizer to pay their outrageous med school bills.

Now tell me what isn't screwed up about that system. I just don't think capitalism works when it's people's lives and health and well being that are involved.

[QUOTE="drj077"][QUOTE="sutherland19"][QUOTE="drj077"]

[QUOTE="oscar530"]why is it scary we have it in Canada and we love itmenis01

Some of you do. However, the Canadians and Canadian doctors that come to the U.S. and stay here tend to disagree with you.

You'd be wrong on that one. America has the technology and research capabilities that it has because of government funded grants and government run programs such as medicare. The NIH funds the development of new drugs, technology, and procedures while companies pick up where the research starts to create a product that is relatively cheap and safe for patients.

The American people pay millions and even billions of dollars every year out of pocket to keep medicare and medicaid going. Because of this fact, pretty much any given town in America has a CT scanner, a surgeon, a general practice doctor, and the American people are allowed to continue in their ignorance, gluttony, diabetes, alcoholism, and the like.

Of course, if you feel differently, perhaps you could convince the American public to force medical schools to lower the cost of tuition for medical school under $150,000 so that your common doctor could function appropriately in a small town instead of having to rely on medicare and people unwilling to pay their medical bills, so that they could pay back their school loans before they die of old age.

Also, I don't think that you have any idea how much it costs to run MRI, CT, XRay, and PET scanners. There is no way around it either. Giant rotating magnets tend to be sort of on the expensive side in case you didn't know.

Man, I'll definitely agree with you about the med school bills. Not that I attend, but yeah. I can't possibly imagine taking out a mortgage on my future like that, and then having to decide how it's going to be paid off.

The gluttony and diabetes problems though, that's where your argument gets me. When people don't have health insurance here, they just don't go to a doctor. And when they don't go to a doctor, they don't get warned about diabetes or the lifestyle they're leading that could lead to a heart attack or cancer. So a few years go by and they end up in an ER where doctors due triage with the help of the really expensive equipment you described and give them bills they'll never be able to pay which end up costing taxpayers money anyway, and then prescribe medicine that they can't afford (because the drug companies have got to pay for all of those ads on TV, right) for problems that could have been staved off with some simple advice earlier in the whole process.  Meanwhile, the smartest kids from the top medical schools are working private practices in Beverly Hills and doing outpatient plastic surgery or making better boner pills at Pfizer to pay their outrageous med school bills.

Now tell me what isn't screwed up about that system. I just don't think capitalism works when it's people's lives and health and well being that are involved.

You couldn't be more wrong about the medical system in this country.  The average physician makes no money until residency.  Once residency starts, the average pay rate is around $40,000.  A person can count on half of that disappearing every year during the 3-5 years of residency just to start to pay off school loans.  So, a physician doesn't actually start making as much money as you think until they are almost into their early 30s.  That's 11-13 years spent as basically a slave to the academic establishment with no real end in sight.  That's a long time to live in basically poverty while all your friends get married, have kids, buy houses, and start their lives. 

As for hospital bills, your average hospital is pretty much constantly riding the line between being in the black and being in the red.  Why?  Because, it costs so much to run all the equipment, keep the lights/heat on, pay all the physicians, pay techs/maintenance, and assure the hospital's future by constantly expanding to guarantee that the facility can help a diverse group of patients.  Not only that, but hospitals forgive millions of dollars worth of medical bills every year and you just have to be lucky enough to get such a chance. 

Socialized healthcare would cripple the American hospital system as any government funded program would prevent research opportunities, prevent expansion opportunities, and prevent facility upkeep.  The last two come from investment opportunities that the hospitals see as lucrative and as of right now, millions of dollars are being sucked out of the research industry as the money NIH uses to give out grants is now being used to fund the Iraq conflict.  There are numerous researchers in this country that have had their funding cut by 50%.

So, if this country wants socialized medicine, then it will have to pay for it out of pocket with incredible tax increases to maintain the current standard of care, research, and professionalism that other doctors around the world crave so much that they move here.  We'd be talking about a tax increase so large that everyone would probably have to give about a quarter of their paycheck every month as people would abuse the system and once again raise the costs of care (this happens in every society with socialized medicine and it's especially bad in Canada). 

[QUOTE="drj077"]

[QUOTE="oscar530"]why is it scary we have it in Canada and we love itsutherland19

Some of you do.  However, the Canadians and Canadian doctors that come to the U.S. and stay here tend to disagree with you. 

[QUOTE="gamelord2004"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="gamelord2004"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Self insure is the same as paying for health insurance. We need to have free health care for all citizens. Guess what....in this country people do not get surgeries they need or transplants.LJS9502_basic

Then the TC should not have brought them up as a positive for private health care...however, even so, the poor have less of a chance of getting a transplant than the wealthy. Coincidence?

LOL such ignorance... The US system is flawed simply because, as pointed out, there is pretty much no health promotion going on, no prevention, only curing... yet, if people knew what's good and what's bad, the need to ER visits would go down a lot, cutting down on hospital and insurance costs The Canadian system might not be perfect at all, but it's a lot more respectable to me, in that it cares about people's health, not only their diseasesKrigen89

No.  You're actually quite misinformed. 

Health promotion in the United States begins pretty much during Middle School with what your common student would consider to be "health class."  These classes continue through high school and are accompanied by sexual education. 

In this country, a person graduates high school knowing the difference between a healthy lifestyle and an unhealthy one. 

Prevention in the United States also begins with health class and if diseases can not be stabilized early, then other avenues are investigated.  Medications are quite capable of preventing a whole host of diseases and if recognized early enough hypertension, type II diabetes, coronary artery disease, and the like can all be essentially cured or at least carefully controlled.  Doctors quite willingly put the answers to a whole host of problems into the hands of any given patient everyday.  Most patients are well educated about their disease in the doctor's office, as well, so the blame for a majority of disease progressing acutally rests with the patients and society in general.

For the majority of diseases there is no cure, so doctors spend the majority of their day tweeking treatment regimens to assure that a patients disease remains under control.   

Nationalised health care is brilliant, I would rather live in a country that provided it. Health should be available to every single person, no matter how much money they have in their wallets.Marx_Brother