Obama has officially conceded on the healthcare bill.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="chathuranga"] Money that we don't have.seabiscuit8686

I don't see your rationale. Wasn't it Hamilton who said that government debt gives us future economic growth? So are you implying that you would rather have millions of Americans die before spending 39 billion on the entirety of the New Deal?

I agree with you, but we DO have a plan to get the money back, it just won't be an immediate fix. Remember when Germany adopted it's universal healthcare system? They spent nearly 5% of their GDP on instituting the system, and they've made every dime back. Of course, they went right over and spent the money on other things, but they made the money back because they pay less than half of what we do per person on healthcare, and if we can follow their example and institute true universal health coverage, then at least one faction will feel like something got done, as opposed to both sides hating on Obama. Plus, 50 million Americans will have healthcare coverage.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"]During the great depression, the US was comming out of it when Roosevelt pushed through the second new deal during his second term. The new deal killed the economy all over again, erasing all the previous gains. The same thing would happen now. It's just a case of bad timing.Hot-Tamale

Incorrect. I realize that the New Deal didn't get us all the way out of the Great Depression, as it took the war mobilization from WW2 to finish the job, but the thing you conservatives/libertarians don't get is that the market isn't rational. People's lives should trump money, and believe it or not, the New Deal vastly increased the livelihood of most Americans when it got through Congress. Sure, money was spent, but human lives are more important than money.

So you never heard about the Roosevelt Recession which was caused by additional taxes neccessary to pay for the items in the second Deal? Before then, the economy was recovering nicely. Because of the second deal, the recession didn't recover until WWII.

If it weren't for money, our living conditions would be terrible and the citizens of the rich nations that post on this web site would no longer be able to do so. If it weren't for money, our health care would be non existant.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="chathuranga"] Sorry, I'm wasn't referring to the New Deal. I'm talking about the trillion dollars that we don't have to fund the health care overhaul.DucksBrains

It's an investment for the future. Did you know that Britan pays 40% per person of what is paid in the U.S. This will save money in the long run, and since healthcare costs are projected to literally double in the next 10 years, SOMETHING has to be done. Again, this is a human rights issue. I don't want to see people dying in the streets because they can't afford healthcare that costs $100,000 a year. It's not humane.

:lol:

Of course it's going to save money, just like Medicare and Medicaid.

No one expected Medicare to make money, it was a concession to the poor as part of the Great Society. You know about that, correct?

Anyway, health care is an entirely different beast. I say that human rights should trump money, especially the livelihood of 50 million Americans. And if we do this right we will have payed it off in a decade. Unfortunately, Obama is starting to doubt the public plan and now nothing will get done. :(

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="psychobrew"]During the great depression, the US was comming out of it when Roosevelt pushed through the second new deal during his second term. The new deal killed the economy all over again, erasing all the previous gains. The same thing would happen now. It's just a case of bad timing.psychobrew

Incorrect. I realize that the New Deal didn't get us all the way out of the Great Depression, as it took the war mobilization from WW2 to finish the job, but the thing you conservatives/libertarians don't get is that the market isn't rational. People's lives should trump money, and believe it or not, the New Deal vastly increased the livelihood of most Americans when it got through Congress. Sure, money was spent, but human lives are more important than money.

So you never heard about the Roosevelt Recession which was caused by additional taxes neccessary to pay for the items in the second Deal? Before then, the economy was recovering nicely. Because of the second deal, the recession didn't recover until WWII.

If it weren't for money, our living conditions would be terrible and the citizens of the rich nations that post on this web site would no longer be able to do so. If it weren't for money, our health care would be non existant.

The Great Depression was NOT recovering at the time of the 2nd 100 days. There was a small spike in commerce that was attributed to the jobs created by the AAA, which, remember, was slightly delayed from when the legislation creating it was passed because it was so controversial. That spike was caused by the actions of the first New Deal, but it was very temporary. If you look at the records, the day before Congress OK'ed the second New Deal stuff, the market fell the equivalent of 400 points (in today's terms). That was big, especially back then.

And about money, I still think that spending money to prevent the deaths of Americans, even if it's a trillion dollars, is well worth it. Human livelihood trumps money, even if they are mutually exclusive in today's society.

Lol, wut?

The Democrats have basically said "screw the Republicans, you aren't going to cooperate anyway". That doesn't exactly sound to me like much of a concession.

GabuEx

[QUOTE="limpbizkit818"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Tis true, you got me.

I'm not even going to attempt to explain the thought process behind that one :P

Hot-Tamale

How does an individual's livelihood not relate directly to healthcare? I don't see your logic.

They didn't have anything specific in mind. It's a broad statement saying "people have the right to live, and they have the right to live those lives freely and happily". Again, I would think it obvious that if you don't have access to healthcare your quality of life and life expectancy are going to be lower than if you did. Thus, not having access to healthcare infringes upon the basic rights of life and happiness.

Do you consider the fire department and police to be a right? Neither are specifically mentioned as being a right, but I think most people in this country would agree that you do have the right to keep your ass from getting murdered, mugged, or lit on fire.

gameguy6700

So you admit that they didn't have anything specific in mind, yet you call on the statement to back you up? There are countless things that lower your quality of life.

While I would not consider the police department a right per se, it is a vital tool used to upkeep the most essential role of government (enforcement of the laws). It is needed to keep the people truly free and is the reason governments are set up. They are not set up to pay for your doctor visit.

I would offer a better rebuttal to your statment but it's crazy late and I need to get some shut eye (do not fear, I shall return tomorrow). I leave you with this question: Do you believe that a public option the only way to fix healthcare?

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="limpbizkit818"]

How does an individual's livelihood not relate directly to healthcare? I don't see your logic.

limpbizkit818

They didn't have anything specific in mind. It's a broad statement saying "people have the right to live, and they have the right to live those lives freely and happily". Again, I would think it obvious that if you don't have access to healthcare your quality of life and life expectancy are going to be lower than if you did. Thus, not having access to healthcare infringes upon the basic rights of life and happiness.

Do you consider the fire department and police to be a right? Neither are specifically mentioned as being a right, but I think most people in this country would agree that you do have the right to keep your ass from getting murdered, mugged, or lit on fire.

gameguy6700

So you admit that they didn't have anything specific in mind, yet you call on the statement to back you up? There are countless things that lower your quality of life.

While I would not consider the police department a right per se, it is a vital tool used to upkeep the most essential role of government (enforcement of the laws). It is needed to keep the people truly free and is the reason governments are set up. They are not set up to pay for your doctor visit.

I would offer a better rebuttal to your statment but it's crazy late and I need to get some shut eye (do not fear, I shall return tomorrow). I leave you with this question: Do you believe that a public option the only way to fix healthcare?

Obviously you're a strict constructionist, so I'm not going to try to change your mind. I think that the Constitution is meant to be changed, fiddled with, and perfected. That is why we are able to amend it! I'm convinced this will become a major point of contention if the healthcare debate gets any deeper (policy-wise, I presume).

And yes, a public option is currently the only RATIONAL and REALISTIC way to fix health care. We should try what has been proven to work, agreed? So we should take a look at what every other industrialized country in the world has done and see which fits us best. It's the noble (and humanitarian) thing to do. :)

[QUOTE="DucksBrains"]

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

It's an investment for the future. Did you know that Britan pays 40% per person of what is paid in the U.S. This will save money in the long run, and since healthcare costs are projected to literally double in the next 10 years, SOMETHING has to be done. Again, this is a human rights issue. I don't want to see people dying in the streets because they can't afford healthcare that costs $100,000 a year. It's not humane.

Hot-Tamale

:lol:

Of course it's going to save money, just like Medicare and Medicaid.

No one expected Medicare to make money, it was a concession to the poor as part of the Great Society. You know about that, correct?

Anyway, health care is an entirely different beast. I say that human rights should trump money, especially the livelihood of 50 million Americans. And if we do this right we will have payed it off in a decade. Unfortunately, Obama is starting to doubt the public plan and now nothing will get done. :(

This isn't about making money, how in the hell is government health care going to 'save money' or even be capable of sustaining itself when we already have government health care social programs that are collapsing as it is. Why anyone thinks just throwing on another layer of beauracracy is going to solve anything is unbelievable.

Hell a lot of the problems with the health care system are caused by the government of all things. People complain that competition isn't working at lowering costs, how the hell can it? Government stifles competition across state lines. Doctors and hospitals spend more money on defensive medicine than anything else, why? The politicians we have in office don't want to lift a damn finger to reign in the trial lawyers that profit from all these frivilous multi-million dollar lawsuits against them. Doctors and hospitals absolutely despise Medicare, the degree of administrative overhead and paperwork to deal with the program literally makes it not worth the effort.

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

[QUOTE="DucksBrains"]

:lol:

Of course it's going to save money, just like Medicare and Medicaid.

DucksBrains

No one expected Medicare to make money, it was a concession to the poor as part of the Great Society. You know about that, correct?

Anyway, health care is an entirely different beast. I say that human rights should trump money, especially the livelihood of 50 million Americans. And if we do this right we will have payed it off in a decade. Unfortunately, Obama is starting to doubt the public plan and now nothing will get done. :(

This isn't about making money, how in the hell is government health care going to 'save money' or even be capable of sustaining itself when we already have government health care social programs that are collapsing as it is. Why anyone thinks just throwing on another layer of beauracracy is going to solve anything is unbelievable.

Hell a lot of the problems with the health care system are caused by the government of all things. People complain that competition isn't working at lowering costs, how the hell can it? Government stifles competition across state lines. Doctors and hospitals spend more money on defensive medicine than anything else, why? The politicians we have in office don't want to lift a damn finger to reign in the trial lawyers that profit from all these frivilous multi-million dollar lawsuits against them. Doctors and hospitals absolutely despise Medicare, the degree of administrative overhead and paperwork to deal with the program literally makes it not worth the effort.

[QUOTE="psychobrew"]

[QUOTE="Hot-Tamale"]

Incorrect. I realize that the New Deal didn't get us all the way out of the Great Depression, as it took the war mobilization from WW2 to finish the job, but the thing you conservatives/libertarians don't get is that the market isn't rational. People's lives should trump money, and believe it or not, the New Deal vastly increased the livelihood of most Americans when it got through Congress. Sure, money was spent, but human lives are more important than money.

Hot-Tamale

So you never heard about the Roosevelt Recession which was caused by additional taxes neccessary to pay for the items in the second Deal? Before then, the economy was recovering nicely. Because of the second deal, the recession didn't recover until WWII.

If it weren't for money, our living conditions would be terrible and the citizens of the rich nations that post on this web site would no longer be able to do so. If it weren't for money, our health care would be non existant.

The Great Depression was NOT recovering at the time of the 2nd 100 days. There was a small spike in commerce that was attributed to the jobs created by the AAA, which, remember, was slightly delayed from when the legislation creating it was passed because it was so controversial. That spike was caused by the actions of the first New Deal, but it was very temporary. If you look at the records, the day before Congress OK'ed the second New Deal stuff, the market fell the equivalent of 400 points (in today's terms). That was big, especially back then.

And about money, I still think that spending money to prevent the deaths of Americans, even if it's a trillion dollars, is well worth it. Human livelihood trumps money, even if they are mutually exclusive in today's society.

What are you talking about? Everything was greatly improved by FDR's second term, though unemployment was lagging behind (it had still improved by more than 10 points). Seriously, read up on your history.

If you have so much extra money to give, then go for it. Most of us don't. It must be nice to be so spoiled that you don't care about your taxes. People that really want insurance can already get it.

Yes, the people comparing the president to Hitler have won, ...

jazznate

The comparison was always rather ironic, given those people's own resemblance to Hitler's SA Brownshirts.

This is terrible. Denying the basic right of healthcare to over 50 million people is a human rights disaster, and I have lost much of the faith in my country because of this fearmongering and vitriolic nonsense. :evil:

Hot-Tamale

Man, I am so lucky I live in Canada(no offense to americans) instead of a place where people hate the idea of free doctors.Anyway I hope Obama gets this passed if he does he has won the title of better than George Bush.

Note: just so you know Canada has free health care.

Man, I am so lucky I live in Canada(no offense to americans) instead of a place where people hate the idea of free doctors.Anyway I hope Obama gets this passed if he does he has won the title of better than George Bush.

Note: just so you know Canada has free health care.

reveiwer

[QUOTE="jazznate"]

Yes, the people comparing the president to Hitler have won, ...

Stesilaus

The comparison was always rather ironic, given those people's own resemblance to Hitler's SA Brownshirts.

unless hitler paid his brownshirts to protest and exercise their freedom of speech, that post is rediculous! :P

I always believed that health care is a privilege, not a right. It's the same thing with driving, or owning a gun. You need to be licensed for that.

In terms of health care, there's a reason why people work, and that is because they work for their health benefits. If people just keep getting freebies from the government, who would want to work anymore?

Communist countries make everything equal, so no many how hard you work, everyone gets the same. Let's say what happens if we do get universal health care. Then what?

What about the people who already have a health care plan for their families? Will it be downgraded to the type of care that the people who cannot afford REAL health care receive? Why work when America is eventually gonna turn into a land of freebies, where you don't need to work, because the government will give it to you!

I always believed that health care is a privilege, not a right. It's the same thing with driving, or owning a gun. You need to be licensed for that.

In terms of health care, there's a reason why people work, and that is because they work for their health benefits. If people just keep getting freebies from the government, who would want to work anymore?

Communist countries make everything equal, so no many how hard you work, everyone gets the same. Let's say what happens if we do get universal health care. Then what?

What about the people who already have a health care plan for their families? Will it be downgraded to the type of care that the people who cannot afford REAL health care receive? Why work when America is eventually gonna turn into a land of freebies, where you don't need to work, because the government will give it to you!

WestSideAzn

here's a video i found to help everyone understand BOTH sides of the arguement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dKdyjRiUhk

It would be so ironic if those that had heavily opposed this bill ended up having enourmous medical bills to pay that they died from not having free healthcare! It would serve them right :P

Well if it is true, this is a defining moment in time where ignorance in numbers has been so overpowerring it has destroyed logic and reasoning. I guess we have our friends at Fox News to thank for spreading all the misinformation and the Democratic Party for actually giving into this kind of behavior. Yes, the people comparing the president to Hitler have won, bravo America. You get to keep your overpriced healthcare and live on as one of the only developed western countries that can't support all if its citizens with basic care.

Although, I'm just hearing this news and the only source you have is some douche on youtube so I don't know how true this is.

jazznate

It's called socialism. We don't believe in. If you are an American who does not like private health care here, move to Canada. How is govt. run healthcare socialism? A govt. attempting to overtake a domain that has long been in private sector is definitely such.

[QUOTE="reveiwer"]

Man, I am so lucky I live in Canada(no offense to americans) instead of a place where people hate the idea of free doctors.Anyway I hope Obama gets this passed if he does he has won the title of better than George Bush.

Note: just so you know Canada has free health care.

Mafiree

It would be so ironic if those that had heavily opposed this bill ended up having enourmous medical bills to pay that they died from not having free healthcare! It would serve them right :P

Comic_Capers

I feel bad for the guy who posted this topic... he obivously doesn't know what he's talking about, and he posted a youtube link as proof... is pretty sad too.

[QUOTE="Comic_Capers"]

It would be so ironic if those that had heavily opposed this bill ended up having enourmous medical bills to pay that they died from not having free healthcare! It would serve them right :P

chathuranga

It's really a shame so many people believe they actually do something for themselves without the help of the society. It's not possible.. as long as you use money/services of a specific group of people.. you are being assisted by your group of people.

I'm glad I don't live in America. I'd hate to live in a society were the uneducated and ignorant can hold influence over life changing decisions, that will affect millions of people.

I'm glad I don't live in America. I'd hate to live in a society were the uneducated and ignorant can hold influence over life changing decisions, that will affect millions of people.

gamedude2020

So, the Bush administration convinced us to enter a war that nobody needed or wanted, and now Obama can't get (optional) public healthcare for the uninsured? I blame right-wing pundits and all of their baseless allegations.

[QUOTE="jazznate"]

Well if it is true, this is a defining moment in time where ignorance in numbers has been so overpowerring it has destroyed logic and reasoning. I guess we have our friends at Fox News to thank for spreading all the misinformation and the Democratic Party for actually giving into this kind of behavior. Yes, the people comparing the president to Hitler have won, bravo America. You get to keep your overpriced healthcare and live on as one of the only developed western countries that can't support all if its citizens with basic care.

Although, I'm just hearing this news and the only source you have is some douche on youtube so I don't know how true this is.

wslacker2

It's called socialism. We don't believe in. If you are an American who does not like private health care here, move to Canada. How is govt. run healthcare socialism? A govt. attempting to overtake a domain that has long been in private sector is definitely such.

I suppose then the Post Office, public education and police force are socialist institutions, given that they're government run institutions that compete with private institutions. Damn those revolutionary agitators who use them.

Or we could all agree a subsidised government option for those who can't afford private healthcare (an option which was never intended or expected to remove private health care) is not socialism, and stick within the bounds of reality.

How you got the government attempting to take over healthcare from all of this I'll never know.

When the Prez gets 20 times to explain the bill and can't do it then that tells you something. Now he is calling for help from the religious community. Typical gov't. We don't know what's in the bill but we are gonna pass it anyway. :) maheo30

[QUOTE="Locke562"]Link?Love_my_PS360

I read it in the associated press a while ago, but I can't find the story. But for proof, will this suffice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjVEUlS2So

Okay, not really the best source there. Was there any better link provided, because I really don't feel like going through 15 pages right now just for one link?

[QUOTE="Love_my_PS360"]

[QUOTE="Locke562"]Link?theone86

I read it in the associated press a while ago, but I can't find the story. But for proof, will this suffice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjVEUlS2So

Okay, not really the best source there. Was there any better link provided, because I really don't feel like going through 15 pages right now just for one link?

[QUOTE="reveiwer"]

Man, I am so lucky I live in Canada(no offense to americans) instead of a place where people hate the idea of free doctors.Anyway I hope Obama gets this passed if he does he has won the title of better than George Bush.

Note: just so you know Canada has free health care.

Mafiree

This. I already pay for Medicare and Medicaid. Neither of which I'm even CLOSE to using. Now the government wants to start up ANOTHER program to drain the pockets of those who pay for our own healthcare. I personally have never had a problem with my health insurance, 4 surgeries later and I've payed a totally fair amount. How about instead of complaining about how bad your health insurance company is you just get a new one? If they don't accept you, try another. That's the point of competition. I don't see any bill in office to make a government run car insurance program.

I don't see any bill in office to make a government run car insurance program.

grenadexjumpr

You don't see the crucial distinction between this and health insurance?

This. I already pay for Medicare and Medicaid. Neither of which I'm even CLOSE to using. Now the government wants to start up ANOTHER program to drain the pockets of those who pay for our own healthcare. I personally have never had a problem with my health insurance, 4 surgeries later and I've payed a totally fair amount. How about instead of complaining about how bad your health insurance company is you just get a new one? If they don't accept you, try another. That's the point of competition. I don't see any bill in office to make a government run car insurance program.

grenadexjumpr

[QUOTE="grenadexjumpr"]

This. I already pay for Medicare and Medicaid. Neither of which I'm even CLOSE to using. Now the government wants to start up ANOTHER program to drain the pockets of those who pay for our own healthcare. I personally have never had a problem with my health insurance, 4 surgeries later and I've payed a totally fair amount. How about instead of complaining about how bad your health insurance company is you just get a new one? If they don't accept you, try another. That's the point of competition. I don't see any bill in office to make a government run car insurance program.

Ontain

Certain health issues, not all. There's still not much justification to take even more out of my paycheck during a time where its hard enough to make ends meet as it is. The government should not pass this bill until our economy gets out of the toilet.

Boy am i glad i live in Canada.

If i end up rich. I never have to worry about medical bills

If i am faced by hard financial times. I never have to worry about medical bills

If i lose my job and am temporarily unemployed. I never have to worry about medical bills

Do i ever have to worry if something is covered? No there is only one type of coverage: Full coverage. I am never moving to the states (scratch that, since i am a canadian citizen, i could always come back)

All covered by taxes.

I don't think Obama has conceded. But I do know that his approval ratings have taken a big hit over the summer. with his current approval rating at 57% and his disapproval rating at 53%, (I think that both Bush and Clinton had better ratings at this point in there presidencies).

If this is true, then it's a sad day. People say the government can't do anything. They couldn't be more wrong. They are in charge of our roads, our energy, they make sure our products are safe to use, they protect us from invasion, they are in charge of our public schools... and more.GodofBigMacs

Certain health issues, not all. There's still not much justification to take even more out of my paycheck during a time where its hard enough to make ends meet as it is. The government should not pass this bill until our economy gets out of the toilet.

grenadexjumpr

[QUOTE="grenadexjumpr"]

Certain health issues, not all. There's still not much justification to take even more out of my paycheck during a time where its hard enough to make ends meet as it is. The government should not pass this bill until our economy gets out of the toilet.

Ontain

That's the scariest part of this whole proposed idea. That would take a LOT of money. Burdening taxpayers with even more taxes is only going to incite hatred and fear towards the bill. This thing should not even be considered until the nation is for the most part financially secure. Its really funny to see people defend the healthcare bill as it is now, then post in another thread about how corrupt they feel the government is.

[QUOTE="grenadexjumpr"]

Certain health issues, not all. There's still not much justification to take even more out of my paycheck during a time where its hard enough to make ends meet as it is. The government should not pass this bill until our economy gets out of the toilet.

Ontain

i'm curious to see how much people in the US pay for insurance a month only to get rejected.