Our leaders... were they all murderers?

Earlier today, I was checking out the boards, and I found a quite interesting thread about Che Guevara. The creator of this particular thread asked the rest of us if we thaught of Che as a Hero or as a murderer, and I noticed that most people on the boards seem to consider him the latter.

Personally, I like quite a few of Che Guevaras revolutionary ideas, still, I'm not all sure of some of the decisions he made as a politician. However, reading about what other people on the boards wrote about him made me think... We know that the man approved of the executions of 400 Batista supporters. So yeah.. hundreds of civilians died because of him... But let's take a look at a few of our own western leaders..

Ronald Reagan: Supported the Contras in Nicaragua which led to the death of thousands and the forced removal of at least 10,000 Indians from their traditional lands and the burning of their villages.

Charles De Gaulle: The leader of the free France supported his nation's wars in Indo-China (Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) and Algeria (until his government realized that it would be impossible to defend in front of the international community) which ended up costing more than a million lives. He also supported Maurice Papon after the Paris massacre of 1961 where he ordered the police to attack an unarmed and peaceful demonstration of some 30,000 Algerians. It's still not known how many people that died that day.

Winston Churchill: The man, is just as De Gaulle known as a hero in the west since he was a cornerstone in the defeat of Natzi Germany, however, the people executed and jailed in British India, Africa and all the other colonies during his reign have yet to be counted, estimates vary, but I've heard of several millions.

The list could be made very long... Bush and his war in Iraq... Ariel Sharon and all his massacres in Palestine (or Ehud Olmert... This last attack of his has costed more civilian lives than the trials of Che ever did)... I could name at least 20 western leaders from of the top of my head that killed thousands of people and that never really brought any noble ideas at all to the political stage of the world... but it's hard to find anyone in the US or Europe (at least the parts of Europe that I've been to) that consider these people murderers. Still we see this hate against Ernesto Guevara... Why is that? Why are our leaders less guilty than the ones of the third world? If you consider Che a murderer, how do you feel about these other leaders that I've mentioned?

I'm not sure Winston Churchill really had people executed in British India, and I assume Africa, because he was against the whole Idea of Britain being in India.xTheExploited

From what I've read about him, that's not the case. He was for imperial britain untill after the war. The britts had been bombed to pieces and Ghandis revolution had made India an economical disaster for them, most british politicians turned against the idea of britain staying in india at this time.

[QUOTE="xTheExploited"]I'm not sure Winston Churchill really had people executed in British India, and I assume Africa, because he was against the whole Idea of Britain being in India.Kalimania

From what I've read about him, that's not the case. He was for imperial britain untill after the war. The britts had been bombed to pieces and Ghandis revolution had made India an economical disaster for them, most british politicians turned against the idea of britain staying in india at this time.

[QUOTE="Kalimania"]

[QUOTE="xTheExploited"]I'm not sure Winston Churchill really had people executed in British India, and I assume Africa, because he was against the whole Idea of Britain being in India.btaylor2404

From what I've read about him, that's not the case. He was for imperial britain untill after the war. The britts had been bombed to pieces and Ghandis revolution had made India an economical disaster for them, most british politicians turned against the idea of britain staying in india at this time.

Hmmm, interesting, I'm going to check that one up

[QUOTE="btaylor2404"][QUOTE="Kalimania"]

From what I've read about him, that's not the case. He was for imperial britain untill after the war. The britts had been bombed to pieces and Ghandis revolution had made India an economical disaster for them, most british politicians turned against the idea of britain staying in india at this time.

Kalimania

Hmmm, interesting, I'm going to check that one up

Been reading up on FDR recently and found that out. Look under the time of their secret meetings on some warship in the Atlantic, before we entered WWII. Pretty wild what they were up to before Pearl Harbor.

[QUOTE="Kalimania"][QUOTE="btaylor2404"] Add to it a little known fact that when FDR and Churchill were in secret talks to get the US into WWII FDR had Churchill sign over a treaty basically saying the UK would get out of the "empire business". Many Brits were furious, but Churchill rightfully stated "How can we have an empire if Germany takes us over."btaylor2404

Hmmm, interesting, I'm going to check that one up

Been reading up on FDR recently and found that out. Look under the time of their secret meetings on some warship in the Atlantic, before we entered WWII. Pretty wild what they were up to before Pearl Harbor.

Man, just started reading... this kind of explains how Britain lost so much of it's influence in the middle east too... Really interesting..

[QUOTE="btaylor2404"][QUOTE="Kalimania"]

Hmmm, interesting, I'm going to check that one up

Kalimania

Been reading up on FDR recently and found that out. Look under the time of their secret meetings on some warship in the Atlantic, before we entered WWII. Pretty wild what they were up to before Pearl Harbor.

Man, just started reading... this kind of explains how Britain lost so much of it's influence in the middle east too... Really interesting..

I know. I read a monster book on FDR, and that was the most interesting thing I got out of it. I had no idea, and never really thought about why Britain let go of so many "Territory's". There was a great quote from the Queen when Churchill came back, but I can't find it, she was livid. Another huge point is the US was very much in an isolation mode, and FDR and Churchill were working for quite a while to get us in the war. A US CIA agent living in London was intercepting all of this and gathering it up to send to the US Communist Party, which would have killed FDR's credibility as he was so anti-WWII in his speeches. (til Pearl Harbor) MI-6 caught wind of it and snagged the guy just days before he was headed back to the US with a years worth of telegrams back and forth between FDR & WC. And your right on the Middle East, we (US, Britain, UN) totally screwed up with Iran & Iraq after WWII.

[QUOTE="Kalimania"][QUOTE="btaylor2404"]

Been reading up on FDR recently and found that out. Look under the time of their secret meetings on some warship in the Atlantic, before we entered WWII. Pretty wild what they were up to before Pearl Harbor.

btaylor2404

Man, just started reading... this kind of explains how Britain lost so much of it's influence in the middle east too... Really interesting..

I know. I read a monster book on FDR, and that was the most interesting thing I got out of it. I had no idea, and never really thought about why Britain let go of so many "Territory's". There was a great quote from the Queen when Churchill came back, but I can't find it, she was livid. Another huge point is the US was very much in an isolation mode, and FDR and Churchill were working for quite a while to get us in the war. A US CIA agent living in London was intercepting all of this and gathering it up to send to the US Communist Party, which would have killed FDR's credibility as he was so anti-WWII in his speeches. (til Pearl Harbor) MI-6 caught wind of it and snagged the guy just days before he was headed back to the US with a years worth of telegrams back and forth between FDR & WC. And your right on the Middle East, we (US, Britain, UN) totally screwed up with Iran & Iraq after WWII.

So hey, what's the title of that book you're speaking of..? I would like to check it out...