[QUOTE="worlock77"]I guess paper does though?All the gold mined in the history of the world would not cover one half of the current U.S. economy.
Laihendi
Evidently so.
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="worlock77"]I guess paper does though? Apparently, since it is what we use. Also the dollar isn't printed on what is commonly known as paper. The formula is actually a denim fiber, mixed with various unknown materials. There was a really interesting PBS documentary on how it's made.All the gold mined in the history of the world would not cover one half of the current U.S. economy.
Laihendi
depends how we would valued gold. Gold wouldn't be $1600-1700 an ounce like it is now, obviously way higher.All the gold mined in the history of the world would not cover one half of the current U.S. economy.
worlock77
[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="worlock77"]I guess paper does though? Not even that would be my guess. I don't think there's a way to print all that e-money. Sure it can be done. All it would require is a new denomination of cash. They could litterally make serveral trillion dollar bills.All the gold mined in the history of the world would not cover one half of the current U.S. economy.
kuraimen
No, I do not. I am open to helping an individual in need who is important to me, but the individuals who are important to me do not need help. And the people being sacrificed against their will are certainly not being helped. The "best people possible" are not murderers and thieves. So basically if you don't know them personally, f*ck them? Do you really have to wonder why your worldview will never gain any type of traction? No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. Most people want that responsibility to be taken over by someone else, and most people don't care whether that someone else actually consents. It is ironic that the loudest preachers of charity are those with absolutely no consideration for the desires of those they demand charity from. According to them, it's selfish and cruel to want to keep your money, but perfectly fine to demand the money of others.[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="Yusuke420"] It can't, if we're all going to try to live together, we should help each other be the best people possible. If that means I can't buy something, then so be it. Tell me lai do you donate to any charities?
Yusuke420
The "f*ck them" attitude is held by those who demand charity. They have no consideration for anyone but themselves. They don't care if someone doesn't want to give them money. They don't care if others want to use their money to support their own lives and the people/things that they love. The people demanding charity simply want something, and they demand that someone else be forced to satisfy their desires, with or without that person's consent. It is the lowest form of selfishness - not the noble selfishness of a man living for his own sake among equals, but of an arrogant and spoiled child.
I disagree with that entirely, children don't WANT to be orphans, people that lose everything because the factory that Dad has worked at for thirty years of his life don't WANT to be on the street and hungary. Life has unforseen circumstances for many people and to ignore that fact in favor of accumlating and sitting on endless wealth is greed at it's finest. People don't want a handout, they want a HANDUP. I have known homeless PHD holders and rich idiots so it's not purely about having a try hard, can do attitude. Sometimes you just need some help and I hope one day your faced with a situation that your money or your influence can't fix and we shall see then if you are willing to do something that to you is an unthinkable sin, ASK FOR HELP!
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="Laihendi"] I guess paper does though?Laihendi
Evidently so.
Please explain how there is not enough gold to cover the US economy.There's not a lot of gold out there and what is out there is not valuable enough to cover tens of trillions of dollars. It's not a difficult concept.
[QUOTE="Fightingfan"][QUOTE="lx_theo"] And? All that means is that when its worth that much, people won't be going out of their way to get more.lx_theoIt's unavoidable it has industrial uses. If you like tech and require medicine it's unavoidable. silver is antibacterial and the most conductive metal. Can't have a functioning computer with gold -- look at a motherboard, ram stick, and processor. And? That changes nothing, especially if there's a limited supply. People will find more cost effective and less limited materials to use. Especially if its valuable and limited. Good setup now means nothing for the future or lasting future. Given how the world works, it could end within a few years. Industrial uses are very temporary. And really, your argument implodes in on itself. If anything is destined to be that valuable forever, then it flexibility in value also become very limited by the fact that you claim it will be decided by much, much more than the government. Largely making your argument that it can be changed in value to create flexibility in economic reactions by the government all but gone. So if your wrong, your argument is silly. If you're right, your argument is silly. The argument for the reason being it's superior to fiat? No it's not. Low rate insurance is always better than no insurance. Fiat doesn't have a chance at surviving 2000+ years, Gold does.
as indusrial uses went up as would the price -- to a point the average man could afford one. It's simply supply demand.
So basically if you don't know them personally, f*ck them? Do you really have to wonder why your worldview will never gain any type of traction? No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritance[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]
[QUOTE="Laihendi"] No, I do not. I am open to helping an individual in need who is important to me, but the individuals who are important to me do not need help. And the people being sacrificed against their will are certainly not being helped. The "best people possible" are not murderers and thieves.Laihendi
And? That changes nothing, especially if there's a limited supply. People will find more cost effective and less limited materials to use. Especially if its valuable and limited. Good setup now means nothing for the future or lasting future. Given how the world works, it could end within a few years. Industrial uses are very temporary. And really, your argument implodes in on itself. If anything is destined to be that valuable forever, then it flexibility in value also become very limited by the fact that you claim it will be decided by much, much more than the government. Largely making your argument that it can be changed in value to create flexibility in economic reactions by the government all but gone. So if your wrong, your argument is silly. If you're right, your argument is silly. The argument for the reason being it's superior to fiat? No it's not. Low rate insurance is always better than no insurance. Fiat doesn't have a chance at surviving 2000+ years, Gold does.[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="Fightingfan"] It's unavoidable it has industrial uses. If you like tech and require medicine it's unavoidable. silver is antibacterial and the most conductive metal. Can't have a functioning computer with gold -- look at a motherboard, ram stick, and processor. Fightingfan
So does fossilized sh*t, but we're not basing an economy off that.
Demanding is not asking. The government does not ask when it collects taxes to fund welfare programs. The money is taken with the threat of a gun. If you refuse then they arrest you. If you resist arrest then they attack you. If you defend yourself then they shoot you. None of what you said is relevant to my point. If you do not respect a man's right to his money, then you have no consideration for him and you have no right to criticize him for not being concerned with "others" (not the others he is concerned with, but the others you are concerned with).I disagree with that entirely, children don't WANT to be orphans, people that lose everything because the factory that Dad has worked at for thirty years of his life don't WANT to be on the street and hungary. Life has unforseen circumstances for many people and to ignore that fact in favor of accumlating and sitting on endless wealth is greed at it's finest. People don't want a handout, they want a HANDUP. I have known homeless PHD holders and rich idiots so it's not purely about having a try hard, can do attitude. Sometimes you just need some help and I hope one day your faced with a situation that your money or your influence can't fix and we shall see then if you are willing to do something that to you is an unthinkable sin, ASK FOR HELP!
Yusuke420
No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritance I am not a moocher. I live by what is mine. I do not need to earn my money because it is already mine.[QUOTE="Laihendi"]
[QUOTE="Yusuke420"] So basically if you don't know them personally, f*ck them? Do you really have to wonder why your worldview will never gain any type of traction?
Aljosa23
Please explain how there is not enough gold to cover the US economy.[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="worlock77"]
Evidently so.
worlock77
There's not a lot of gold out there and what is out there is not valuable enough to cover tens of trillions of dollars. It's not a difficult concept.
You're thinking in the form of a dollar. What's a dollar? The buying power of a dollar now it's the same as it was in the 90s. Sure there's a enough gold if the value of dollar equaled the same as a constitutions dollar -- only worth the paper it was printed on.The argument for the reason being it's superior to fiat? No it's not. Low rate insurance is always better than no insurance. Fiat doesn't have a chance at surviving 2000+ years, Gold does.[QUOTE="Fightingfan"]
[QUOTE="lx_theo"] And? That changes nothing, especially if there's a limited supply. People will find more cost effective and less limited materials to use. Especially if its valuable and limited. Good setup now means nothing for the future or lasting future. Given how the world works, it could end within a few years. Industrial uses are very temporary. And really, your argument implodes in on itself. If anything is destined to be that valuable forever, then it flexibility in value also become very limited by the fact that you claim it will be decided by much, much more than the government. Largely making your argument that it can be changed in value to create flexibility in economic reactions by the government all but gone. So if your wrong, your argument is silly. If you're right, your argument is silly. worlock77
So does fossilized sh*t, but we're not basing an economy off that.
Intrinsic value doesn't matter. We could value our dollar on rice, if it's rare, and has industrial uses it serves the same purpose. Dinosaur **** if found to have properties that are unique would work :P[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritance I am not a moocher. I live by what is mine. I do not need to earn my money because it is already mine. lol[QUOTE="Laihendi"] No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. Laihendi
[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritance I am not a moocher. I live by what is mine. I do not need to earn my money because it is already mine.You're living off money given to you. You made no effort to support your own life. That sounds pretty clear cut bro, you said it yourself[QUOTE="Laihendi"] No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. Laihendi
A gold standard would be disastrous. The main feature of the Eurozone is its quasi-gold standard and look how it's working for them. -Sun_Tzu-
Switching to a gold standard would be disastrous, but overall it's superior to fiat. At this point in time or another we'll have to go back,
it's simply no one wants to go back because it'll make everyone pretty much homeless.
Fiat currency is like a parasite, once it's born you have to continue feeding it till it dies and collapses on itself.
[QUOTE="Yusuke420"]Demanding is not asking. The government does not ask when it collects taxes to fund welfare programs. The money is taken with the threat of a gun. If you refuse then they arrest you. If you resist arrest then they attack you. If you defend yourself then they shoot you. None of what you said is relevant to my point. If you do not respect a man's right to his money, then you have no consideration for him and you have no right to criticize him for not being concerned with "others" (not the others he is concerned with, but the others you are concerned with). Tax aren't just collected to fund welfare programs, it is an aspect of the entire scope of the government, which is how this nation is governed. To say that you don't want to pay taxes is the same as saying you don't want any access to the benefits provided by for those said taxes. Also Lai have you considered that there are tax free organizations that you could back what would protect your precious money from said taxation? If you donated you charity it would also exempt that portion of your income from taxation as well. So there are plenty of avenues to use if you are trying to avoid paying taxes. That being said why is money the only thing that is important to you?I disagree with that entirely, children don't WANT to be orphans, people that lose everything because the factory that Dad has worked at for thirty years of his life don't WANT to be on the street and hungary. Life has unforseen circumstances for many people and to ignore that fact in favor of accumlating and sitting on endless wealth is greed at it's finest. People don't want a handout, they want a HANDUP. I have known homeless PHD holders and rich idiots so it's not purely about having a try hard, can do attitude. Sometimes you just need some help and I hope one day your faced with a situation that your money or your influence can't fix and we shall see then if you are willing to do something that to you is an unthinkable sin, ASK FOR HELP!
Laihendi
[QUOTE="worlock77"]
[QUOTE="Fightingfan"] The argument for the reason being it's superior to fiat? No it's not. Low rate insurance is always better than no insurance. Fiat doesn't have a chance at surviving 2000+ years, Gold does.
Fightingfan
So does fossilized sh*t, but we're not basing an economy off that.
Intrinsic value doesn't matter. We could value our dollar on rice, if it's rare, and has industrial uses it serves the same purpose. Dinosaur **** if found to have properties that are unique would work :PExactly. Hell, I'd argue that coal has more intrinsic value than gold does.
[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritance I am not a moocher. I live by what is mine. I do not need to earn my money because it is already mine.[QUOTE="Laihendi"] No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. Laihendi
It's not yours, it's your parent's. But meh, your childish idiocy grows tiresome.
[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritance I am not a moocher. I live by what is mine. I do not need to earn my money because it is already mine. making nothing for yourself and being given everything is like the definition of mooching[QUOTE="Laihendi"] No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. Laihendi
[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="Aljosa23"]As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritanceAbbetenI am not a moocher. I live by what is mine. I do not need to earn my money because it is already mine. making nothing for yourself and being given everything is like the definition of mooching I have never been nothing. I am a man, and a man's most profoundly moral actions are thinking and productive work. I live by both, and that is why I am writing a book.
And? That changes nothing, especially if there's a limited supply. People will find more cost effective and less limited materials to use. Especially if its valuable and limited. Good setup now means nothing for the future or lasting future. Given how the world works, it could end within a few years. Industrial uses are very temporary. And really, your argument implodes in on itself. If anything is destined to be that valuable forever, then it flexibility in value also become very limited by the fact that you claim it will be decided by much, much more than the government. Largely making your argument that it can be changed in value to create flexibility in economic reactions by the government all but gone. So if your wrong, your argument is silly. If you're right, your argument is silly. The argument for the reason being it's superior to fiat? No it's not. Low rate insurance is always better than no insurance. Fiat doesn't have a chance at surviving 2000+ years, Gold does.[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="Fightingfan"] It's unavoidable it has industrial uses. If you like tech and require medicine it's unavoidable. silver is antibacterial and the most conductive metal. Can't have a functioning computer with gold -- look at a motherboard, ram stick, and processor. Fightingfan
as indusrial uses went up as would the price -- to a point the average man could afford one. It's simply supply demand.
Fiat has no chance? I'd say it has about the same chance as gold.As proven by you being a moocher and living off inheritance I am not a moocher. I live by what is mine. I do not need to earn my money because it is already mine. You have never once said anything that suggests that that is true.[QUOTE="lx_theo"][QUOTE="Fightingfan"] No, I don't have to wonder. Most people want everything to be given to them. Most people want to live without making the effort to support their own life. Fightingfan
Demanding is not asking. The government does not ask when it collects taxes to fund welfare programs. The money is taken with the threat of a gun. If you refuse then they arrest you. If you resist arrest then they attack you. If you defend yourself then they shoot you. None of what you said is relevant to my point. If you do not respect a man's right to his money, then you have no consideration for him and you have no right to criticize him for not being concerned with "others" (not the others he is concerned with, but the others you are concerned with). Tax aren't just collected to fund welfare programs, it is an aspect of the entire scope of the government, which is how this nation is governed. To say that you don't want to pay taxes is the same as saying you don't want any access to the benefits provided by for those said taxes. Also Lai have you considered that there are tax free organizations that you could back what would protect your precious money from said taxation? If you donated you charity it would also exempt that portion of your income from taxation as well. So there are plenty of avenues to use if you are trying to avoid paying taxes. That being said why is money the only thing that is important to you? Tax deductions for donations simply disguises the problem. I either give my money to a charity, or the government steals it. Either way I lose.[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="Yusuke420"]
I disagree with that entirely, children don't WANT to be orphans, people that lose everything because the factory that Dad has worked at for thirty years of his life don't WANT to be on the street and hungary. Life has unforseen circumstances for many people and to ignore that fact in favor of accumlating and sitting on endless wealth is greed at it's finest. People don't want a handout, they want a HANDUP. I have known homeless PHD holders and rich idiots so it's not purely about having a try hard, can do attitude. Sometimes you just need some help and I hope one day your faced with a situation that your money or your influence can't fix and we shall see then if you are willing to do something that to you is an unthinkable sin, ASK FOR HELP!
Yusuke420
Why is money important to me? Why is it important to you? You are the one demanding that others give it up to fund your social causes.
So you think that money is the root of all evil? . . . Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which cant exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?
When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honoryour claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?
Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motionsand youll learn that mans mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.
But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of mans capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is madebefore it can be looted or moochedmade by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he cant consume more than he has produced.
Francisco dAnconia
[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="Abbeten"] making nothing for yourself and being given everything is like the definition of moochingmattbbplI have never been nothing. I am a man, and a man's most profoundly moral actions are thinking and productive work. I live by both, and that is why I am writing a book. Protip: Not all thoughts are worthwhile, and many a book has been written that's worth less than the paper it's written on.
Fortunately his evidently won't be printed on paper.
c'mon guise
i'm sure that lai is a productive citizen in his spare time
prob holds down two full-time jobs
pays for all of his own sh!t from money he earned by the sweat of his brow
it wouldn't fit his randian faith otherwise
Protip: Not all thoughts are worthwhile, and many a book has been written that's worth less than the paper it's written on.[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="Laihendi"] I have never been nothing. I am a man, and a man's most profoundly moral actions are thinking and productive work. I live by both, and that is why I am writing a book.worlock77
Fortunately his evidently won't be printed on paper.
Maybe it'll be printed on his inheritance.[QUOTE="Fightingfan"] it's simply no one wants to go back because it'll make everyone pretty much homeless. -Sun_Tzu-How then would it be superior to fiat currency? Fiat currency is always headed in the same direction -- it'll just be without warning. At least given a switch-back people could prepare.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Fightingfan"] it's simply no one wants to go back because it'll make everyone pretty much homeless. FightingfanHow then would it be superior to fiat currency? Fiat currency is always headed in the same direction -- it'll just be without warning. At least given a switch-back people could prepare. So basically you're paranoid and convinced that one method is doomed despite having almost no difference to the other.
[QUOTE="Fightingfan"]The argument for the reason being it's superior to fiat? No it's not. Low rate insurance is always better than no insurance. Fiat doesn't have a chance at surviving 2000+ years, Gold does.[QUOTE="lx_theo"] And? That changes nothing, especially if there's a limited supply. People will find more cost effective and less limited materials to use. Especially if its valuable and limited. Good setup now means nothing for the future or lasting future. Given how the world works, it could end within a few years. Industrial uses are very temporary. And really, your argument implodes in on itself. If anything is destined to be that valuable forever, then it flexibility in value also become very limited by the fact that you claim it will be decided by much, much more than the government. Largely making your argument that it can be changed in value to create flexibility in economic reactions by the government all but gone. So if your wrong, your argument is silly. If you're right, your argument is silly. lx_theo
as indusrial uses went up as would the price -- to a point the average man could afford one. It's simply supply demand.
Fiat has no chance? I'd say it has about the same chance as gold. Look at history it doesn't. What makes you think America can erase 1500+ years of history? Every fiat since Song dynasty(960-1277 AD)has failed.Intrinsic value doesn't matter. We could value our dollar on rice, if it's rare, and has industrial uses it serves the same purpose. Dinosaur **** if found to have properties that are unique would work :P[QUOTE="Fightingfan"]
[QUOTE="worlock77"]
So does fossilized sh*t, but we're not basing an economy off that.
worlock77
Exactly. Hell, I'd argue that coal has more intrinsic value than gold does.
That was missing a few words. I meant to say "It doesn't matter where it comes from".iirc it is difficult to do monetary policy thingys with resource-backed currencies, so, fightingfan, no.
ur drunk
go home
He insists otherwise. Though he has yet to prove that there is a valuable way to value and devalue materials by the government.iirc it is difficult to do monetary policy thingys with resource-backed currencies, so, fightingfan, no.
ur drunk
go home
coolbeans90
So basically having some undeterminable amount of wealth that you could never spend on just yourself and your family no matter how hard you tried is more important to you then feeding orphans and keeping the elderly off the streets? I want to understand you man, but it seems so cold hearted.
Who are you speaking too.So basically having some undeterminable amount of wealth that you could never spend on just yourself and your family no matter how hard you tried is more important to you then feeding orphans and keeping the elderly off the streets? I want to understand you man, but it seems so cold hearted.
Yusuke420
[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]difficult? i think it's more or less impossible America did fine prior to the federal reserve act in regards to managing money. At least if you compare today to history.iirc it is difficult to do monetary policy thingys with resource-backed currencies, so, fightingfan, no.
ur drunk
go home
Abbeten
[QUOTE="Abbeten"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]difficult? i think it's more or less impossible America did fine prior to the federal reserve act in regards to managing money. At least if you compare today to history. not really, actuallyiirc it is difficult to do monetary policy thingys with resource-backed currencies, so, fightingfan, no.
ur drunk
go home
Fightingfan
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