Richard Dawkins: I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI

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Danm_999

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#101 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="dercoo"]

No this will end amusingly.

I can see the youtube videos now.

Several atheist charge the Pope being quickly owned by the Swiss guard.

dercoo

Dawkins and Hitchens are attempting to get the Crown Prosecution service and British police to do it actually.

I doubt the UK government would risk the political damage with the Catholicnations over something like this.

It would be like voluntarily putting UK in the same situation as the US under Bush.

The UK has done this a few times actually, they did it with Pinochet, they attempted to do it with an Israeli citizen who was accused of commiting crimes in Gaza (the person's name escapes me, they ended up not going to the UK to avoid trouble). Nor do I think it would be all that unpopular. Even in Italy the Pope is under quite a bit of siege. Of course he'd have defenders, probably the majority of Catholics, but it seems that even many Catholics wouldn't oppose his arrest.
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Vandalvideo

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#102 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="Danm_999"] And this, more than the actual crime, is what seems to bother Dawkins in particular most of all. I don't think so much he wants to challenge the Pope as an abetter or supporter of molestation, I think he seeks to undermine the privileged status of religious institutions in society.

It isn't the fact that they are a religious institution that grants them this quasi-state power, but a type of international law political body exception which applies to organizations like The Red Cross, the Knights of Malta, and the Holy See. It is an operational immunity that the international law grants unto these bodies... Forget it, why am I even trying to explain international law? That crap is so schism anyway. This is why I despise and loathe international law. Here is to Criminal Law! *Pours a shot of vodka*
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roosuu

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#103 roosuu
Member since 2009 • 1084 Posts
Excellent. I luv it! Take that!
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Atheists_Pwn

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#104 Atheists_Pwn
Member since 2010 • 1610 Posts
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="Danm_999"] And this, more than the actual crime, is what seems to bother Dawkins in particular most of all. I don't think so much he wants to challenge the Pope as an abetter or supporter of molestation, I think he seeks to undermine the privileged status of religious institutions in society.

It isn't the fact that they are a religious institution that grants them this quasi-state power, but a type of international law political body exception which applies to organizations like The Red Cross, the Knights of Malta, and the Holy See. It is an operational immunity that the international law grants unto these bodies... Forget it, why am I even trying to explain international law? That crap is so schism anyway. This is why I despise and loathe international law. Here is to Criminal Law! *Pours a shot of vodka*

if the un started to take child molestations too seriously they might implode
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blackngold29

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#105 blackngold29
Member since 2004 • 14137 Posts

On another note... in the catholic faith is there any reason why a child is left alone with a Priest?:?

weezyfb
You're suggesting a child should never be alone with an adult?
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Atheists_Pwn

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#106 Atheists_Pwn
Member since 2010 • 1610 Posts
[QUOTE="weezyfb"]

On another note... in the catholic faith is there any reason why a child is left alone with a Priest?:?

blackngold29
You're suggesting a child should never be alone with an adult?

I personally dont think a child should be left alone with a priest. Not necessarily "adults" in general :)
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whipassmt

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#107 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

Cardinal Ratzinger did more than anyone to hold abusers accountable

Cardinal Ratzinger did more than anyone to hold abusers accountable
ByWilliam McGurn

Unlike the Roman papacy, in certain circles the New York Times still enjoys the presumption of authority. So when the front page carries a story headlined "Vatican Declined to Defrock U.S. Priest Who Abused Deaf Boys," people notice.

Written by Laurie Goodstein and published March 25, the thrust is twofold. First, that the Rev. Lawrence Murphy, a priest who abused children at St. John's School for the Deaf in Milwaukee from the 1950s to the 1970s, went unpunished. Father Murphy, she wrote categorically, "was never tried or disciplined by the church's own justice system."

This all feeds the kicker: "the effort to dismiss Father Murphy came to a sudden halt after the priest appealed to Cardinal Ratzinger for leniency." In other words, Murphy got off scot-free, and the cardinal looked the other way.

Ms. Goodstein cites internal church documents, which the Times posted online. The documents were provided by Jeff Anderson and Mike Finnegan. They are described as "lawyers for five men who have brought four lawsuits against the Archdiocese of Milwaukee."

What she did not tell readers is that Mr. Anderson isn't just any old lawyer. When it comes to suing the church, he is America's leading plaintiffs attorney. Back in 2002, he told the Associated Press that he'd won more than $60 million in settlements from the church, and he once boasted to a Twin Cities weekly that he's "suing the s--t out of them everywhere." Nor did the Times report another salient fact about Mr. Anderson: He's now trying to sue the Vatican in U.S. federal court.

None of this makes Mr. Anderson wrong or unworthy of quoting. It does make him a much bigger player than the story disclosed. In fact, it's hard to think of anyone with a greater financial interest in promoting the public narrative of a church that takes zero action against abuser priests, with Pope Benedict XVI personally culpable.

Asked about the omissions in an email, Ms. Goodstein replied as follows: "Given the complexity of the Murphy case, and the relative brevity of my story, I don't think it is realistic for you to expect this story to get into treating other cases that these attorneys have handled."

Martin Nussbaum, a lawyer who is not involved in the Murphy case but who has defended other dioceses and churches in sexual abuse suits, emailed me four interesting letters sent to Murphy from three Wisconsin bishops. These documents are not among those posted online by the Times. They are relevant, however, because they refute the idea that Murphy went unpunished.

In fact, the letters from these bishops—three in 1993 and one in 1995, after fresh allegations of Murphy's misconduct—variously informed the priest that he was not to celebrate the sacraments in public, not to have any unsupervised contact with minors, and not to work in any parish religious education program.

It's accurate to say Murphy was never convicted by a church tribunal. It's also reasonable to argue (as I would) that Murphy should have been disciplined more. It is untrue, however, to suggest he was "never" disciplined. When asked if she knew of these letters, Ms. Goodstein did not directly answer, saying her focus was on what was "new," i.e., "the attempts by those same bishops to have Father Murphy laicized."

As for Rome, it did not get the case until 1996, when the archdiocese of Milwaukee informed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then headed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. Back then, the CDF handled abuse cases when they involved a breach of confession (Murphy was accused of using the confessional to solicit boys). At that time, too, the only real option for reducing Murphy to the lay state was a church trial. And the bishops in Wisconsin did begin a trial.

Ms. Goodstein's original article said simply that Cardinal Ratzinger's deputy halted Murphy's trial after the priest sent the cardinal a letter saying he was dying and asking for clemency. A follow-up Times article last Thursday clarified that Rome came down the way it did because Murphy had shown "apparent good conduct" for the last 24 years, and "it would be difficult to try him" because "so much time [had] passed between the crimes and the trial."

Plus, his bishops had already stripped Murphy of his priestly faculties, the equivalent of taking a doctor's medical license. Does all this really suggest people callously looking the other way?

A few years later, when the CDF assumed authority over all abuse cases, Cardinal Ratzinger implemented changes that allowed for direct administrative action instead of trials that often took years. Roughly 60% of priests accused of sexual abuse were handled this way. The man who is now pope reopened cases that had been closed; did more than anyone to process cases and hold abusers accountable; and became the first pope to meet with victims. Isn't the more reasonable interpretation of all these events that Cardinal Ratzinger's experience with cases like Murphy's helped lead him to promote reforms that gave the church more effective tools for handling priestly abuse?

That's not to say that the press should be shy, even about Pope Benedict XVI's decisions as archbishop and cardinal. The Murphy case raises hard questions: why it took the archbishops of Milwaukee nearly two decades to suspend Murphy from his ministry; why innocent people whose lives had been shattered by men they are supposed to view as icons of Christ found so little justice; how bishops should deal with an accused clergyman when criminal investigations are inconclusive; how to balance the demands of justice with the Catholic imperative that sins can be forgiven. Oh, yes, maybe some context, and a bit of journalistic skepticism about the narrative of a plaintiffs attorney making millions off these cases. That's still a story worth pursuing

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whipassmt

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#108 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="blackngold29"][QUOTE="weezyfb"]

On another note... in the catholic faith is there any reason why a child is left alone with a Priest?:?

Atheists_Pwn

You're suggesting a child should never be alone with an adult?

I personally dont think a child should be left alone with a priest. Not necessarily "adults" in general :)

Aren't you then discriminating based upon occupation?

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whipassmt

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#109 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="dercoo"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"] Dawkins and Hitchens are attempting to get the Crown Prosecution service and British police to do it actually.Danm_999

I doubt the UK government would risk the political damage with the Catholicnations over something like this.

It would be like voluntarily putting UK in the same situation as the US under Bush.

The UK has done this a few times actually, they did it with Pinochet, they attempted to do it with an Israeli citizen who was accused of commiting crimes in Gaza (the person's name escapes me, they ended up not going to the UK to avoid trouble). Nor do I think it would be all that unpopular. Even in Italy the Pope is under quite a bit of siege. Of course he'd have defenders, probably the majority of Catholics, but it seems that even many Catholics wouldn't oppose his arrest.

The Pope has diplomatic immunity as a head of state. Also arresting him would be an act of war, and per the Lateran Treaty Italy must defend the Holy See in the event of war. So it seems that Dawkins and Hitchens are trying to start a war between Italy and Britain (or are at least foolishly willing to risk it). Also, the last time a Pope was arrested was by Napoleon and the last person to plot to arrest a Pope was Hitler Does Britain really want to be like Hitler and Napoleon?

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whipassmt

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#110 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

On another note, does the UN have diplomatic immunity? Does the International Criminal Court have diplomatic immunity (by the way the U.S. never ratified the ICC, and I think Congress passed a law authorizing the President to use military force against the ICC if it captures U.S. citizens and tries them for war crimes).

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Danm_999

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#111 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

Cardinal Ratzinger did more than anyone to hold abusers accountable

whipassmt
I'm going to stop you here: Even if the current Pope is the most progressive, child protecting man to ever hold the position, that does not give him a pass on obstructing justice. The Pope took matters into his own hands, and decided because he felt Murphy was old, that it should be put to bed. The article even seriously suggests that since Murphy had been defrocked, that was evidence that the Church had acted to a satisfactory extent. If a doctor was caught doing a similar thing, he'd go to prison, no questions asked.
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Atheists_Pwn

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#112 Atheists_Pwn
Member since 2010 • 1610 Posts

[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"][QUOTE="blackngold29"] You're suggesting a child should never be alone with an adult?whipassmt

I personally dont think a child should be left alone with a priest. Not necessarily "adults" in general :)

Aren't you then discriminating based upon occupation?

Is it bad to assume a hitman is a killer? Is it bad to assume a banker deals with finance?
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Danm_999

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#113 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

The Pope has diplomatic immunity as a head of state.whipassmt


So was Pinochet. Didn't stop the British from arresting him; in fact the article claims that's the precedent Dawkins and Hitchins would utilise.


Also arresting him would be an act of war, and per the Lateran Treaty Italy must defend the Holy See in the event of war. So it seems that Dawkins and Hitchens are trying to start a war between Italy and Britain (or are at least foolishly willing to risk it). whipassmt


Ignoring the fact that Italy would likely decline to declare war, and that the UK would best Italy in a war.

. Also, the last time a Pope was arrested was by Napoleon and the last person to plot to arrest a Pope was Hitler Does Britain really want to be like Hitler and Napoleon?

whipassmt

And we've hit Godwin's Law.

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Atheists_Pwn

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#114 Atheists_Pwn
Member since 2010 • 1610 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]. Also, the last time a Pope was arrested was by Napoleon and the last person to plot to arrest a Pope was Hitler Does Britain really want to be like Hitler and Napoleon?

Danm_999

And we've hit Godwin's Law.

Why are reductions to Hitler never even close to logic?
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Danm_999

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#115 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]. Also, the last time a Pope was arrested was by Napoleon and the last person to plot to arrest a Pope was Hitler Does Britain really want to be like Hitler and Napoleon?

Atheists_Pwn

And we've hit Godwin's Law.

Why are reductions to Hitler never even close to logic?

Because usually they're horribly mis-applied :P
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theone86

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#116 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

. Also, the last time a Pope was arrested was by Napoleon and the last person to plot to arrest a Pope was Hitler Does Britain really want to be like Hitler and Napoleon?whipassmt

I'm sorry, haven't I seen you argue that child molesters are the worst people on the face of the earth and they should all be put to death, and now you're defending a man who says that the concerns of the church should come before any justice served against child molesters?

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whipassmt

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#117 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"] I personally dont think a child should be left alone with a priest. Not necessarily "adults" in general :)Atheists_Pwn

Aren't you then discriminating based upon occupation?

Is it bad to assume a hitman is a killer? Is it bad to assume a banker deals with finance?

Well that's a stupid comparison, those are parts of their jobs. Not all Priests are molesters. Should I leave a child alone with a gardener or a carpenter?

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whipassmt

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#118 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]. Also, the last time a Pope was arrested was by Napoleon and the last person to plot to arrest a Pope was Hitler Does Britain really want to be like Hitler and Napoleon?theone86

I'm sorry, haven't I seen you argue that child molesters are the worst people on the face of the earth and they should all be put to death, and now you're defending a man who says that the concerns of the church should come before any justice served against child molesters?

he didn't say the concerns of the Church should come before justice. Also justice requires: 1. due process 2. an assumption of innocence until guilt is proven.

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Theokhoth

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#119 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
One thing I'd like to know is: why are people so hellbent (lolpun) on charging the Pope for a crime he covered up decades ago. . .but it's a-okay for Roman Polansky to get off the hook for a crime he committed? I mean, some of the people in this very thread I've seen defend Polansky on the grounds that "It was a long time ago".
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Danm_999

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#120 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] Aren't you then discriminating based upon occupation?

whipassmt

Is it bad to assume a hitman is a killer? Is it bad to assume a banker deals with finance?

Well that's a stupid comparison, those are parts of their jobs. Not all Priests are molesters. Should I leave a child alone with a gardener or a carpenter?

Is your gardener or carpenter forced in their occupation to remain single and celibate, and do you teach a child to respect and revere the gardener or carpenters? There's kind of a combination of factors that leads to Catholic priests perceived proclivity for pedophilia; a reduced outlet for sexual desire coupled with a strong instillation of moral and religious authority.

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whipassmt

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#121 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] Aren't you then discriminating based upon occupation?

whipassmt

Is it bad to assume a hitman is a killer? Is it bad to assume a banker deals with finance?

Well that's a stupid comparison, those are parts of their jobs. Not all Priests are molesters. Should I leave a child alone with a gardener or a carpenter?

The U.S. Department of Justice study issued in January found that over one in ten youth in state juvenile facilities--that is 2,370 young people--reported an incident of sexual victimization during the previous year. Nineteen Connecticut foster parents, paid by the State, engaged in childhood sexual abuse since 2006.
By comparison, only three Connecticut priests were accused of childhood sexual abuse occurring during the past eighteen years. The greater danger for Connecticut's children today lies not in the Church, but in public institutions

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whipassmt

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#122 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

Cardinal Ratzinger did more than anyone to hold abusers accountable

Danm_999

I'm going to stop you here: Even if the current Pope is the most progressive, child protecting man to ever hold the position, that does not give him a pass on obstructing justice. The Pope took matters into his own hands, and decided because he felt Murphy was old, that it should be put to bed. The article even seriously suggests that since Murphy had been defrocked, that was evidence that the Church had acted to a satisfactory extent. If a doctor was caught doing a similar thing, he'd go to prison, no questions asked.

How did he "obstruct justice" and the Pope doesn't have prisons (by the way the police did investigate Fr. Murphy and found the evidence inconclusive) to put people in. Also diplomatic immunity gives him a legal pass.

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Danm_999

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#123 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]One thing I'd like to know is: why are people so hellbent (lolpun) on charging the Pope for a crime he covered up decades ago. . .but it's a-okay for Roman Polansky to get off the hook for a crime he committed? I mean, some of the people in this very thread I've seen defend Polansky on the grounds that "It was a long time ago".

Firstly, who here is defending Roman Polanski? Secondly, Polansky, though a lowlife, has been arrested and tried several times through his life. He actually spent time in a rehabilitaton facility, and was released, but his aquittal was overturned. He was re-arrested as recently as last year. Now, you can disagree with HOW Polanski has been punished (I don't feel harshly enough), but you can't say he's been untouched.
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Atheists_Pwn

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#124 Atheists_Pwn
Member since 2010 • 1610 Posts

[QUOTE="Atheists_Pwn"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] Aren't you then discriminating based upon occupation?

whipassmt

Is it bad to assume a hitman is a killer? Is it bad to assume a banker deals with finance?

Well that's a stupid comparison, those are parts of their jobs. Not all Priests are molesters. Should I leave a child alone with a gardener or a carpenter?

well first of all, we dont necessarily know the inner workings of the vatican. for all we know, the catholic church might actually just be a child molestation club with a religious front. Im somewhat kidding, but its plausable. Second, I wasnt necessarily saying that all priests are molestors. I was saying that children shouldnt be left with them. If you notice blackngold made a jump from priest to adult(someone said kids shouldnt be left alone with priests, and he said why shouldnt kids be left alone with adults or somethign to that effect), so I made my own jump.
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Danm_999

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#125 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="whipassmt"]

Cardinal Ratzinger did more than anyone to hold abusers accountable

whipassmt

I'm going to stop you here: Even if the current Pope is the most progressive, child protecting man to ever hold the position, that does not give him a pass on obstructing justice. The Pope took matters into his own hands, and decided because he felt Murphy was old, that it should be put to bed. The article even seriously suggests that since Murphy had been defrocked, that was evidence that the Church had acted to a satisfactory extent. If a doctor was caught doing a similar thing, he'd go to prison, no questions asked.

How did he "obstruct justice" and the Pope doesn't have prisons (by the way the police did investigate Fr. Murphy and found the evidence inconclusive) to put people in. Also diplomatic immunity gives him a legal pass.

Obstruction of justice is the act of lying, destroying evidence, or withholding information from authorities. The Pope has admitted to doing this; he said he did it for the Church's greater good, and even that he had decided against pursuing Murhpy (due to his advanced age, which YOUR article cited). The fact the police didn't find enough evidence was because the Vatican was not forthcoming.

Under US law, that's obstruction of justice. The Pope is not to pass criminal judgements on a US priest.

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Setsa

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#126 Setsa
Member since 2005 • 8431 Posts
Firstly, if someone if to be charged, it should be the specific individuals in the Church that have committed the acts, not the Pope because that'll shock the world the most :roll: Secondly, Dawkins is an idiot and makes atheists/agnostics look like zealots.
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Danm_999

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#127 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
Firstly, if someone if to be charged, it should be the specific individuals in the Church that have committed the acts, not the Pope because that'll shock the world the most :roll: Secondly, Dawkins is an idiot and makes atheists/agnostics look like zealots.Setsa
So basically, if you're beloved or powerful enough, you're above the law?
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WasntAvailable

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#128 WasntAvailable
Member since 2008 • 5605 Posts

Ignoring the fact that Italy would likely decline to declare war, and that the UK would best Italy in a war.

Danm_999

Really? That's meant to matter? It's also probably a legal thing as well. They may not even be in a position to decline war.

Wow, I can't believe people actually think arresting the Pope is a good idea to risk initiating a war. People take things way too far on this forum when it comes to religion both for and against. I can not believe some people think that (a) This is a good idea and (b) It's not impossible to happen.

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Theokhoth

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#129 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]One thing I'd like to know is: why are people so hellbent (lolpun) on charging the Pope for a crime he covered up decades ago. . .but it's a-okay for Roman Polansky to get off the hook for a crime he committed? I mean, some of the people in this very thread I've seen defend Polansky on the grounds that "It was a long time ago".Danm_999
Firstly, who here is defending Roman Polanski?

Here? Nobody. Have you seen any of the threads on the subject?

Secondly, Polansky, though a lowlife, has been arrested and tried several times through his life. He actually spent time in a rehabilitaton facility, and was released, but his aquittal was overturned. He was re-arrested as recently as last year. Now, you can disagree with HOW Polanski has been punished (I don't feel harshly enough), but you can't say he's been untouched.


He's on house arrest and has yet to even be extradited to the United States. My point isn't that he's not punished but that people think he shouldn't be punished.

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batman_is_aweso

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#130 batman_is_aweso
Member since 2009 • 2762 Posts

I hope the Pope can see the sponsored links:
.
:lol:smc91352

LOL Win!

but on topic it'd be so awkward if he does

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Danm_999

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#131 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

Ignoring the fact that Italy would likely decline to declare war, and that the UK would best Italy in a war.

WasntAvailable

Really? That's meant to matter? It's also probably a legal thing as well. They may not even be in a position to decline war.

Wow, I can't believe people actually think arresting the Pope is a good idea to risk initiating a war. People take things way too far on this forum when it comes to religion both for and against. I can not believe some people think that (a) This is a good idea and (b) It's not impossible to happen.

Of course it can. It can break any treaty it wants; Italy is a sovereign nation. If it doesn't want to make war, it won't. The Vatican won't be able to compel it. Off the top of my head, there's probably an out in the European Union constitution that forbids member states from going to war with each other. Now, as I said when I first began posting in this thread, I don't believe the arrest will happen. I think it's a modest PR move by Dawkins and Hitchens to challenge the authority of the Church when it's proven a dubious ability in handling the power. I don't actually think they'd be able to convince the Crown Prosecution, nor would they particularly want the controversy. That said, I can't see Italy going to war with Britain, especially to save a Pope who has already divided the Catholic faith.
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Setsa

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#132 Setsa
Member since 2005 • 8431 Posts
[QUOTE="Setsa"]Firstly, if someone if to be charged, it should be the specific individuals in the Church that have committed the acts, not the Pope because that'll shock the world the most :roll: Secondly, Dawkins is an idiot and makes atheists/agnostics look like zealots.Danm_999
So basically, if you're beloved or powerful enough, you're above the law?

No, i'm saying instead of attacking a guy who didn't directly commit the acts, go after, you know, the real perpetrators.
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Danm_999

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#133 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]One thing I'd like to know is: why are people so hellbent (lolpun) on charging the Pope for a crime he covered up decades ago. . .but it's a-okay for Roman Polansky to get off the hook for a crime he committed? I mean, some of the people in this very thread I've seen defend Polansky on the grounds that "It was a long time ago".Theokhoth

Firstly, who here is defending Roman Polanski?

Here? Nobody. Have you seen any of the threads on the subject?

Secondly, Polansky, though a lowlife, has been arrested and tried several times through his life. He actually spent time in a rehabilitaton facility, and was released, but his aquittal was overturned. He was re-arrested as recently as last year. Now, you can disagree with HOW Polanski has been punished (I don't feel harshly enough), but you can't say he's been untouched.


He's on house arrest and has yet to even be extradited to the United States. My point isn't that he's not punished but that people think he shouldn't be punished.

He has however, been found guilty, and has in the past, and in the present, received some sort of punitive consequence.

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Danm_999

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#134 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Setsa"]Firstly, if someone if to be charged, it should be the specific individuals in the Church that have committed the acts, not the Pope because that'll shock the world the most :roll: Secondly, Dawkins is an idiot and makes atheists/agnostics look like zealots.Setsa
So basically, if you're beloved or powerful enough, you're above the law?

No, i'm saying instead of attacking a guy who didn't directly commit the acts, go after, you know, the real perpetrators.

You go after both. The people who commited the acts, and those who helped them cover it up. You don't have to go either/or.
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Theokhoth

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#135 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"] Firstly, who here is defending Roman Polanski?

Here? Nobody. Have you seen any of the threads on the subject?

Secondly, Polansky, though a lowlife, has been arrested and tried several times through his life. He actually spent time in a rehabilitaton facility, and was released, but his aquittal was overturned. He was re-arrested as recently as last year. Now, you can disagree with HOW Polanski has been punished (I don't feel harshly enough), but you can't say he's been untouched.


Danm_999

He's on house arrest and has yet to even be extradited to the United States. My point isn't that he's not punished but that people think he shouldn't be punished.

He has however, been found guilty, and has in the past, and in the present, received some sort of punitive consequence.

He was found guilty because he plead guilty, and then he fled the country. He did not receive punishment until the Swiss arrested him in 2009, despite the fact that he had an international warrant for his arrest in effect for four years.

And again, you miss my point. With whatever punishment he gets, there are people out there and in GameSpot clamoring for his release on the basis that it happened a long time ago. What I want to know is: why is this standard not applied to the Pope, who did not commit the crime himself but covered it up?

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Setsa

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#136 Setsa
Member since 2005 • 8431 Posts
[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Setsa"][QUOTE="Danm_999"] So basically, if you're beloved or powerful enough, you're above the law?

No, i'm saying instead of attacking a guy who didn't directly commit the acts, go after, you know, the real perpetrators.

You go after both. The people who commited the acts, and those who helped them cover it up. You don't have to go either/or.

The article makes it sound like Dawkins just wants publicity, and he knows that taking a swing at the Pope is gonna cause more controversy for the Church than merely taking down the individuals that actually engaged in inappropriate sexual conduct.
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Danm_999

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#137 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

He's on house arrest and has yet to even be extradited to the United States. My point isn't that he's not punished but that people think he shouldn't be punished.

Theokhoth

He has however, been found guilty, and has in the past, and in the present, received some sort of punitive consequence.

He was found guilty because he plead guilty, and then he fled the country. He did not receive punishment until the Swiss arrested him in 2009, despite the fact that he had an international warrant for his arrest in effect for four years.

And again, you miss my point. With whatever punishment he gets, there are people out there and in GameSpot clamoring for his release on the basis that it happened a long time ago. What I want to know is: why is this standard not applied to the Pope, who did not commit the crime himself but covered it up?

You're asking me to justify a contradictory standard that I neither agree with or have seen.
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Theokhoth

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#138 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"] He has however, been found guilty, and has in the past, and in the present, received some sort of punitive consequence.

Danm_999

He was found guilty because he plead guilty, and then he fled the country. He did not receive punishment until the Swiss arrested him in 2009, despite the fact that he had an international warrant for his arrest in effect for four years.

And again, you miss my point. With whatever punishment he gets, there are people out there and in GameSpot clamoring for his release on the basis that it happened a long time ago. What I want to know is: why is this standard not applied to the Pope, who did not commit the crime himself but covered it up?

You're asking me to justify a contradictory standard that I neither agree with or have seen.

Originally I wasn't asking you. You just responded to me.

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Danm_999

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#139 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts
[QUOTE="Setsa"][QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Setsa"] No, i'm saying instead of attacking a guy who didn't directly commit the acts, go after, you know, the real perpetrators.

You go after both. The people who commited the acts, and those who helped them cover it up. You don't have to go either/or.

The article makes it sound like Dawkins just wants publicity, and he knows that taking a swing at the Pope is gonna cause more controversy for the Church than merely taking down the individuals that actually engaged in inappropriate sexual conduct.

The article also suggests that Dawkins himself would be arresting the Pope like some mad chicken; it's written expressively to garner interest. It's written to highlight the big players and key features. Not to mention that many of the people in question are dead; the Pope is the last conspirator left to challenge.
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Pixel-Pirate

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#140 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

[QUOTE="Setsa"]Firstly, if someone if to be charged, it should be the specific individuals in the Church that have committed the acts, not the Pope because that'll shock the world the most :roll: Secondly, Dawkins is an idiot and makes atheists/agnostics look like zealots.Danm_999
So basically, if you're beloved or powerful enough, you're above the law?

Yes. It's unfortunate but what I was saying before. Some people are above the law. Generally religious leaders like the pope, heads of VERY large buisnesses, and leaders of very powerful nations.

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Danm_999

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#141 Danm_999
Member since 2003 • 13924 Posts

[QUOTE="Danm_999"][QUOTE="Setsa"]Firstly, if someone if to be charged, it should be the specific individuals in the Church that have committed the acts, not the Pope because that'll shock the world the most :roll: Secondly, Dawkins is an idiot and makes atheists/agnostics look like zealots.Pixel-Pirate

So basically, if you're beloved or powerful enough, you're above the law?

Yes. It's unfortunate but what I was saying before. Some people are above the law. Generally religious leaders like the pope, heads of VERY large buisnesses, and leaders of very powerful nations.

And this I feel, is what Dawkins and Hitchens really want to point out to the world. They don't seriously want to arrest the Pope, what a mad idea.
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Anti-Venom

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#142 Anti-Venom
Member since 2008 • 5646 Posts
leave the pope alone
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WasntAvailable

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#143 WasntAvailable
Member since 2008 • 5605 Posts

[QUOTE="WasntAvailable"]

[QUOTE="Danm_999"]

Ignoring the fact that Italy would likely decline to declare war, and that the UK would best Italy in a war.

Danm_999

Really? That's meant to matter? It's also probably a legal thing as well. They may not even be in a position to decline war.

Wow, I can't believe people actually think arresting the Pope is a good idea to risk initiating a war. People take things way too far on this forum when it comes to religion both for and against. I can not believe some people think that (a) This is a good idea and (b) It's not impossible to happen.

Of course it can. It can break any treaty it wants; Italy is a sovereign nation. If it doesn't want to make war, it won't. The Vatican won't be able to compel it. Off the top of my head, there's probably an out in the European Union constitution that forbids member states from going to war with each other. Now, as I said when I first began posting in this thread, I don't believe the arrest will happen. I think it's a modest PR move by Dawkins and Hitchens to challenge the authority of the Church when it's proven a dubious ability in handling the power. I don't actually think they'd be able to convince the Crown Prosecution, nor would they particularly want the controversy. That said, I can't see Italy going to war with Britain, especially to save a Pope who has already divided the Catholic faith.

I take it you do know where the Vatican is located, right? If Britain were to go to war with the Vatican, and not Italy (Because maybe they didn't feel like it.), Britain would anger the Catholic faith in Britain by cutting it off from the rest of the world, which is a large number of people, and worsen relations with many countries in Europe, making it one of the worst possible things Britain could ever do. It's not a moderate decision, it's manic. Not only that, it's basically the same as arresting a world leader for moderate corruption charges, and if Britain were to start doing that, well I don't think we would last long. If your going to apply this standard to the Pope why not anyone else? Why not arrest the Italian Prime minister if he ever decides to visit Britain? We all know he's corrupt as hell.

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SgtKevali

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#144 SgtKevali
Member since 2009 • 5763 Posts

Not going to happen. The Pope is the Pope, he's pretty much above the Law. He is a disgusting man however, and has lost ALL credibility in my eyes.

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SgtKevali

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#145 SgtKevali
Member since 2009 • 5763 Posts

Oh and Italy and Britian ware in the EU and NATO, they're not going to attack each other. :roll:

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mrbojangles25

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#146 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60820 Posts

1: why is the pope the one being charged? from my understanding, he simply chose not to take action against a sex offender on behalf of the church, how is that illegal? it's certainly a matter of questionable judgement, but it doesn't seem like a legal matter at all.

2: are these people also trying to go after the priest, or just the pope? this guy is obviously just using this situation as an excuse to try to destroy catholicism

3: why would the british government get involved? if the british government arrests the pope, the entire catholic population will despise them.. riots will ensue, bad stuff will happen

Sword-Demon

1. he is the head of an organization that cannot keep its members under control, and in a sense by ignoring what happens (or saying it should be overlooked, etc) he is condoning such behavior.

2. not sure in this specific incident, but yes...the priests are traditional prosecuted like any other human, at least here in the US

3. the British should get involved because its an opportunity to do the right thing; and besides, I dont think this is necessarily a governemnt case. Also, I beleive you are exagerating the consequences.

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Z0MBIES

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#147 Z0MBIES
Member since 2005 • 2246 Posts
This won't happen, and honestly if the pope should be arrested then so should every single other head of state because every head of state covers (or tries to) up scandals or things that will make their country look bad. Obviously the pope handled the sex abuse cases VERY poorly (that word obviously doesn't suffice), but he won't be arrested, to think otherwise would be stupid, you really can't arrest a head of state for something like obstruction of justice, even though you might not like it, heads of state are above most laws.
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Im_single

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#148 Im_single
Member since 2008 • 5134 Posts
Richard Dawkins has officially crosses the douchbag border and is now in crazy town, GJ Richard Dawkins, you're an idiot. Is he trying to start a war over religion? If so that would be one of the most ironic and hilarious things I have ever seen in my life.
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Pixel-Pirate

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#149 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

Richard Dawkins has officially crosses the douchbag border and is now in crazy town, GJ Richard Dawkins, you're an idiot. Is he trying to start a war over religion? If so that would be one of the most ironic and hilarious things I have ever seen in my life.Im_single

Well if a war starts because a religious leader who broke the law goes to court, perhaps that sorta says something about organized religion?

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Serraph105

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#150 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts
Richard Dawkins has officially crosses the douchbag border and is now in crazy town, GJ Richard Dawkins, you're an idiot. Is he trying to start a war over religion? If so that would be one of the most ironic and hilarious things I have ever seen in my life.Im_single
he is trying to arrest somebody for doing illegal ****. I'm not saying he isn't a douchbag, but the Pope is not above the law.