Saudis arrest 41 for "plotting to celebrate Christmas"

[QUOTE="worlock77"]When we cease our dependancy on oil or they run out of it, whichever comes first.airshocker

We get most of our oil from Canada, actually.

Aero5555

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and maybe it's just the language, but i'm not insisting on dating, i just do. i don't require the blessing or permission of another person to do it. When we got the age where dating starts to be kinda expected (you know puberty stage and all) my parents allowed it but made very strict guidelines as to what's expected by us. it's why i've said on this forum before that yes i am a social liberal and i have and do fight for liberal causes (when i think they're right), but in my personal relationships - especially the girlfriend ones - i am pretty conservative/traditional in my attitudes. and i don't have much patience for girls who want to buck every traditional trend just because *insert social theory*.

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but my loath for the PVPV doesn't stem from not liking stupid, embarrassing and awful things they do sometimes - things that i have both read, watched, and witnessed first hand (but never on the receiving end of their wrath). It comes also from philosophical perspective as well. On how governments should operate with regards to all of it's people, and the rights of the individual.

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As for the folks you don't like, I've seen those individuals, at the same time i try to make one more distinction. I try to bear in mind that sometimes these liberal who seem like they're pissing on the country, are really just revealing something unpleasant about the society when it is more comfortable to think it's not that big of a problem. Like i don't often diss PVPV, I do tend to whenever they come up and they've done something stupid, embarrassing (to the country) or horrific - and those stories come up often on this forum.

but if the topic in general comes up, and i'm asked for my opinion, i'm not backing down simply to be polite, or to let someone else then dominate the discussion. sometimes i don't have the energy to bother, but if i'm being asked to be engaged in the discussion, I think sometimes people have strong negative reactions to fellow Saudi's criticizing the country and society (sometimes harshly so) is because it's from within, it's personal, and it very much feels like a kind of betrayal of your countrymen.

I don't always see it that way. I sometimes see it like the person who has to point out the 800 gorilla in the room. like to use an example, like when people get upset when you say the emperor has no clothes, when your not supposed to say he's naked.

and those strong reactions sometimes that strikes me as knee-jerk reactionary very similar to how American conservatives react to liberals (if you don't love this country then leave it talk) in America - it's not new, and it's not going to ever go away.

I do think - very strongly so - that such discourse of different opinions FROM within (not some convention being held by non-Arabs, non-Muslims, in Vienna somewhere).We desperately need free social and political discourse within, and not one based on subordinating one group under the other, or one where one group or the other takes a strong reaction that they wanna eliminate their opponent all together. Not one where if the liberal congregate on a private forum, have it forced shut down by hacking attacks, or to have shut out for the intended audience by the governments internet censors.

We desperately need free exchange of ideas, and with that comes a lot of hostile reactions to some opinions and ideas - it's to be expected.

Saudi,

how do manage to stay calm and friendly in the face of this constant, moral superiority infused, judgment aimed at you

pie-junior

Sorry, Pie. Kinda confused here. Are you asking or are you describing a Saudi?

If you're asking, it's basically because a Muslim is taught to be patient, first and foremost. And secondly, I grew up here. It's my life. I know how to deal with these situations. We're human, after all. We do get those moments where you think this is too much. But it depends on the person and his lifestyle.

For me, personally I'm used to it and I socialize with people who live this life with me everyday. I also love my country. It's basically patience mixed with making the most of what you have. Other people don't have money to spend on food, a roof to live under... etc. I thank God for what I have.

I know that, as a Muslim, this patience will reward me in the end. Be it now or in the after-life.

[QUOTE="Aero5555"]

pie-junior

Saudi,

how do manage to stay calm and friendly in the face of this constant, moral superiority infused, judgment aimed at you

I know where i stand for the most part on these sorts of issues. it's not like a half-baked them yesterday.

but it's also a matter of how we were raised, little over half my life now has been living outside of Saudi (mostly in the US, a little bit in other places), if I end up finding work i could very well end up back there and for the most part be absolutely fine. but i'm gonna assume for a moment Aero is full Saudi (i don't know, so forgive if i'm wrong), and i know Fize is. I don't believe (nor do i know for a fact) that i either of them have lived outside of the Middle East for any substantial time. I was born with an American mother, and a Saudi father. and i've grown in both countries for extended time.

I do very much feel like a person of two worlds, because there are things i love about America and Saudi. I love how tight families are in Saudi, but i love the discourse and the protected freedoms in America. and i hate the opposites of either, i don't particularly like how broken American families are and how that seems to be considered ok. but i also don't like how limiting Saudi is in so many ways for all the people who are not male, straight, and a strict follower of the Salafi Islam as understood and prescribed by the religious authority.

I also happen to have a Saudi family that had no strong links - not anymore - to the tribes, never has been an issue, has never come up, we don't abide by that stuff.

Simply put, i just had a different upbringing, and had the privilege of being exposed to another society - and I was intellectually curious for things outside my own little box. I didn't discard them out of hand because they were foreign, not Islamic, or my sensitivities.

There are only three places on this Earth i call home, i instantly feel at home when i'm there.

1. Al-Khobar, Eastern Province
2. Twin Cities, Minnesota
3. Houston, Texas

You assume wrong, Fury. Read your PMs.

I've also lived, to what is equivalent to, a few years abroad. I've seen the world. Love music, concerts. Have friends from different faiths... etc.

We're not that different. Trust me. I guess my upbringing is the only real difference between us. I have many female friends but have never dated and was not allowed to as a little kid. These experiences imprinted my life values. That's all.

[QUOTE="th3warr1or"]Don't Muslims like Jesus? I'm confused. I thought he's a prophet in Islam. GrayF0X786

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]

[QUOTE="th3warr1or"]Don't Muslims like Jesus? I'm confused. I thought he's a prophet in Islam. LJS9502_basic

SaudiFury

That's nice and everything,

but you could afford to be a little acerbic about stuff

That's nice and everything,

but you could afford to be a little acerbic about stuff

pie-junior

We are. But I personally balance it out. I don't disrespect my culture. We condemn the obvious abuse.

By the by, your wording of the code as Salafi I don't like, Fury. There's no such thing as Salafi practiced by PVPV. You watch too much YouTube me thinks.

Aero5555

And about Fize being schitzo, or your belief that he is. I dunno exactly what topics you disagreed on. But maybe he comes off like he's your best friend a second and an enemy the next because, like me, he loves you as a brother in Islam and wishes you the best. Yet he despises your loath of the PVPV, your insistence on dating, but at the same time prays to Allah that he will guide you to the straight path some day. I also wish you the same. Allah yehdeek ya rab.Aero5555

[QUOTE="Aero5555"]pie-junior

[QUOTE="pie-junior"][QUOTE="Aero5555"]Victorious_Fize

nothing is better than MEMRIVictorious_Fize- self proclaimed conservative Saudi

you're a marketing genius, fize.

did they seize vast stockpiles of tinsel and coloured lights? Those bastards could have brought joy to thousands, Thank Allah they were thwarted.

I'm beginning to like these threadsVictorious_Fize

Atheist must love Muslims ... lolhippiesanta

[QUOTE="hippiesanta"]Atheist must love Muslims ... loltoast_burner

[QUOTE="toast_burner"]

[QUOTE="hippiesanta"]Atheist must love Muslims ... lolultrapc

[QUOTE="ultrapc"][QUOTE="toast_burner"]Why? many athesits celebrate Christians and they're also atheism is i8llegal in Saudi Arabia.KC_Hokie

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

According to a study by OpenDoors, Saudi Arabia is one of the three "toughest countries to be a Christian" (Afghanistan and North Korea are the other two) which I guess means that Saudi Arabia is one of the top three countries were Christians are persecuted.

Edit: North Korea is in first place as regards persecution of Christians (in North Korea it is illegal to be a Christian and some 70,000 people are estimated to have been sent to labor camps for their faith) while Saudi Arabia is in second place (Saudi Arabia bans public practice of any faith other than Islam). So if my reading of the article linked to above in this post is correct, in North Korea it is illegal to be Christian, in Saudi Arabia it is legally okay to be a Christian in your own home but if you practice your faith in public that is illegal.

DataUsageLimit

They worship Kim Jong-il as a god. I wish that I were joking, but it's true.

That's the reason I don't recognize all Arabs as Muslims.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

pie-junior

That's nice and everything,

but you could afford to be a little acerbic about stuff

i'm not preaching the choir here.

being told that they'll pray for me to find the right path, is not new, i know some people would be offended by that. it's been said to me many times before. But i always hope that even after they say that. when they are alone. i hope for a few moments, they remember and think about what i said - my ideas - and not focus on discounting me because of who i am, where i'm from, what groups I belong to, or what right do i have to question the unquestionable.

that's the hope at least.

and i figure trying to be nice and cordial - for the most part - is the right way to go.

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Also the fact that you are Jewish - which i didn't know beforehand - has no bearing on whether i be nice to you or not. Also that you were not part of the argument and i wasn't arguing against you. the very most anybodies ethnicity, religion, gender, age etc. is it gives you an understanding of where someone is coming from in the argument/discussion. not to be brandish'd as a means of discarding a person's opinion outright, or as a reason to instantly treat that person with suspicion as though they have secret malicious intentions for you.

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Also to Fize, when i said schitzo, i did'nt mean it to be taken as an offense, - i felt the rest of my sentences made that clear. Again, it was not my intention to be offensive or for it to be a backhanded comment either.

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Anyways peace out.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] anyone who has more then half a brain knows that christmas is a pagan belief, and has nothing to do with christianity in the first place.

GrayF0X786

Lol LJ being willfully ignorant for the upteenth time

Atheist must love Muslims ... lolhippiesanta

stop being an idiot

That's the reason I don't recognize all Arabs as Muslims.

alim298

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Anyone with half a brain knows what the term Christmas refers to....wis3boi

Lol LJ being willfully ignorant for the upteenth time

Muslims get more and more absurd everyday.

[QUOTE="hippiesanta"]Atheist must love Muslims ... lolwis3boi

stop being an idiot

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="hippiesanta"]Atheist must love Muslims ... lolhippiesanta

stop being an idiot

Nice evidence you have there.

Das how we roll..**** the hataz.

Das how we roll..**** the hataz.

Alienware_fan

Stop plotting.

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] you a Christian? what sect?

LJS9502_basic

Lol LJ being willfully ignorant for the upteenth time

Are you aware of What Thursday means?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

Lol LJ being willfully ignorant for the upteenth time

mattisgod01

Are you aware of What Thursday means?

He's probably never heard of sol invictus or saturnalia either

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="DataUsageLimit"] Wait, so what are north koreans then?DataUsageLimit

[QUOTE="DataUsageLimit"][QUOTE="whipassmt"] I'm not sure what you mean.

whipassmt

and that's all they do. The government literally is their religion

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="DataUsageLimit"] In religious terms.wis3boi

and that's all they do. The government literally is their religion

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"] I don't know. I think the government requires them to worship the leader of N. Korea (Kim Jong Un) as well as his two predecessors.

whipassmt

and that's all they do. The government literally is their religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea

• Irreligion: 15,460,000 (64.3% of population, the vast majority of which are adherents of theJuchephilosophy)
• Korean Shamanism: 3,846,000 adherents (16% of population)
• Cheondoism: 3,245,000 adherents (13.5% of population)
• Buddhism: 1,082,000 adherents (4.5% of population)
• Christianity: 406,000 adherents (1.7% of population)

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

and that's all they do. The government literally is their religion

toast_burner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea

• Irreligion: 15,460,000 (64.3% of population, the vast majority of which are adherents of theJuchephilosophy)
• Korean Shamanism: 3,846,000 adherents (16% of population)
• Cheondoism: 3,245,000 adherents (13.5% of population)
• Buddhism: 1,082,000 adherents (4.5% of population)
• Christianity: 406,000 adherents (1.7% of population)

lol

at least they weren't beheaded or something

"Plotting to celebrate Christmas"... :lol:

Pirate700

I think i would kill myself if i was forced to live in Saudi Arabia.