[QUOTE="InterpolWilco"] You don't have to do this though. There are other ways than massive government spending. People are talking about cutting taxes, what about cutting the Capital Gains tax to ZERO! Or cutting corporate tax to ZERO! What about getting rid of the income tax and letting people keep what they earn, and instead, maybe just have a consumption tax. Or hell, maybe have sound money, I hear Gold and Silver is pretty valuable these days. Yes, trust me, I like all of those. However, we are in the real world, where those will never happen.
If enacted, the Senate stimulus bill would fund over $100 billion in new government construction projects with the goal of providing additional jobs to unemployed Americans. The House-passed stimulus bill contains explicit language to bar employment of illegal immigrants in these construction projects. However, the Senate bill deliberately omits this language.
Illegal immigrants are a necessary evil. They come into our country, and do take jobs away from Americans. HOWEVER, they often take the jobs that Americans don't want. If you've ever really studied economics dealing with that sort of thing, you'd know that if we were to get rid of all illegal immigrants, our economy would tank ever further.Legendaryscmt
Since when was the United States desperate for workers? We have always had enough people to fill the jobs. Just because a person doesn't want to take that job doesn't mean someone won't.
Even though I don't agree with the bill - you have nationalist written all over you.
Edit - the bill has no mention of illegal immigrants getting jobs...
It just says that 2.04 million construction jobs will be created.
Then it says 1/7 construction workers are illegal immigrants, not citing its source. So it then assumes that 300,000 jobs will be created for illegal immigrants.
Illegal immigrants are a necessary evil. They come into our country, and do take jobs away from Americans. HOWEVER, they often take the jobs that Americans don't want. If you've ever really studied economics dealing with that sort of thing, you'd know that if we were to get rid of all illegal immigrants, our economy would tank ever further.Legendaryscmt
Sorry to butt in, but the reason they're illegal immigrants is because it's so difficult to get a Visa.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"] You're right, it CAN be. But we don't know yet. And I'd rather take the chance and try to improve this country than do nothing and keep on the path we're currently on.Engrish_Major
You want to improve the country? Give tax incentives to all the companies currently hiring out from overseas and tax those that do so. You need to get the jobs back HERE and not create temporary, low paying, paper jobs that will not sustain the economy for the long haul. Something the current politicians don't seem interested in. Really? Then how come Obama's package DOES include those exact things?I'll ask you what I asked the other guy. Specifics? Mostly what is in the package is spending. We should be fiscally responsible and NOT spend until the debt comes down.
[QUOTE="Legendaryscmt"]Illegal immigrants are a necessary evil. They come into our country, and do take jobs away from Americans. HOWEVER, they often take the jobs that Americans don't want. If you've ever really studied economics dealing with that sort of thing, you'd know that if we were to get rid of all illegal immigrants, our economy would tank ever further.helium_flash
Since when was the United States desperate for workers? We have always had enough people to fill the jobs. Just because a person doesn't want to take that job doesn't mean someone won't.
Have you every worked in the construction industry? Or how about the agrigcultural industy?
Illegal workers are just a fact of life because nobody wants to pay the rates/wages Americans demand for similar work. Otherwise, the costs for housing would skyrocket
Illegal immigrants are a necessary evil. They come into our country, and do take jobs away from Americans. HOWEVER, they often take the jobs that Americans don't want. If you've ever really studied economics dealing with that sort of thing, you'd know that if we were to get rid of all illegal immigrants, our economy would tank ever further.Legendaryscmt
This is not true. Many Americans have actually lost jobs that have been given to illegals because the immigrants cost less...but an American held the job first. Second...with unemployment and welfare these jobs can be given to those currently not working.
[QUOTE="freshgman"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Currently what passes as a so-called stimulus bill is nothing more than a spending bill. However, further degrading the economy....goood job.Ultimate-Playa
its better than what the republicans are suggesting(lowering taxes) which is about all they say now. but were mute during bush's outrageous spending. this bill has a good chance of helping the american people in general Wrong, the stimulus package (which is more like scam package) has tons of spending programs that doesn't do anything to stimulate economy. True, some of them are nice ideas but definately arn't aimed at helping the economy. Helping the economy should be the top prioroty and all other spending should be cut back
I'll ask you what I asked the other guy. Specifics? Mostly what is in the package is spending. We should be fiscally responsible and NOT spend until the debt comes down.LJS9502_basic
I think that mostly what YOU THINK is in the package is spending. Tax cuts are a large part of it too. I will try to find the link I read the other day. Businesses will get a tax credit for each domestic employee that they hire.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I'll ask you what I asked the other guy. Specifics? Mostly what is in the package is spending. We should be fiscally responsible and NOT spend until the debt comes down.Engrish_Major
I think that mostly what YOU THINK is in the package is spending. Tax cuts are a large part of it too. I will try to find the link I read the other day. Businesses will get a tax credit for each domestic employee that they hire.Non illegal immigrant I hope. Otherwise it's worthless. The economy cannot be stimulated by paying employees who send their money to another country. Second, it is mostly spending. There are a few ideas there that are not about spending but when you add it up....it ends up spending more than it makes. Which keeps you in debt.
Non illegal immigrant I hope. Otherwise it's worthless. The economy cannot be stimulated by paying employees who send their money to another country. Second, it is mostly spending. There are a few ideas there that are not about spending but when you add it up....it ends up spending more than it makes. Which keeps you in debt.LJS9502_basic
Of course it's legal employees. You really don't expect companies to report illegal employees to the IRS do you? As for the spending, the money is there with the intention of creating more cash flow in the private sector, which in turn, creates tax income for the government. That's the theory at least.
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Non illegal immigrant I hope. Otherwise it's worthless. The economy cannot be stimulated by paying employees who send their money to another country. Second, it is mostly spending. There are a few ideas there that are not about spending but when you add it up....it ends up spending more than it makes. Which keeps you in debt.Engrish_Major
Of course it's legal employees. You really don't expect companies to report illegal employees to the IRS do you? As for the spending, the money is there with the intention of creating more cash flow in the private sector, which in turn, creates tax income for the government. That's the theory at least.It's been known to happen.
And there may be some programs that in theory "might" create some cash flow but overall it spends more than it makes which will not help the economy.
It's been known to happen.And there may be some programs that in theory "might" create some cash flow but overall it spends more than it makes which will not help the economy.LJS9502_basic
Well, take one example: if it costs $500 million to make government buildings more energy efficient, which in turn saves $2 billion over the next two years, as Obama said, "Why would you be against that?" That's just one example of how spending money now can save money in the future. You can't just make a blanket statement saying "spending money makes us more in debt". Also, about 1/3 of the $800 billion that you hear about is actually tax cuts, not actual spending.
I mean we are told to be fiscally responsible in our everyday lives, meaning if you can't afford it, don't buy it, yet our very own government ignores basic economic fact. If government spending made a country rich, then the Soviet Union would have been the most prosperous country in the world. And too many people are following our government's example, and spending more money then they can afford, which is one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in today.
And what happened to the politics of HOPE because lately all I've been hearing from Obama and his friends are the politics of FEAR. Take Nancy Pelosi just recently. She said if we don't pass this stimulus package, America will lose 500 million jobs. First, talk about stoking fear, and second, I didn't even know America had 500 million people. Maybe she is adding in the people from those imaginary states Obama visisted during the campaign. :P I'm calling it right now. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are going to be the downfall of the Democratic Party. And then you have Obama parading around saying this is an "URGENT CRISIS", and if we don't pass this bill, America might never recover. Sounds alot like Bush doesn't it? I mean if this is such a "crisis", then why are hundreds of billions of dollars of this package not going to be used until two to three years from now? This so called "stimulus" bill is nothing more than a spending bill.
And I found Obama's rhetoric and praise for Nancy Pelosi and others who wrote this wasteful proposal an insult. He's little more than the Sham-wow guy harping a product. The only differences are that sham-wow cost less and will actually do something close to what is promised. Seriously, this package is nothing more than a trojan horse being passed as the answer to our prayers. How much more do we want to devalue the dollar???
Two great quotes, and they go for both Dems and Reps "We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." Sir Winston Churchill
"It is important to remember that government interference always means either violent action or the threat of such action. The funds that a government spends for whatever purposes are levied by taxation. And taxes are paid because the taxpayers are afraid of offering resistance to the tax gatherers. They know that any disobedience or resistance is hopeless. As long as this is the state of affairs, the government is able to collect the money that it wants to spend. Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men... Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom." Ludwig von Mise
For every dollar given on non-refundable tax rebates, $1.02 of economic activity is created. For every dollar spent on infrastructure, $1.59 of economic activity is generated. Source: Moody's economy.com.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the democrats have a majority in the House of Representatives but not in the Senate? So why are you blaming Obama? Also it's better than anything the Republicans are suggesting.. more tax cuts for the rich.. if you know anything about economics and have some morals, you'd know that tax cuts for the rich are the worst thing to do.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the democrats have a majority in the House of Representatives but not in the Senate? So why are you blaming Obama? Also it's better than anything the Republicans are suggesting.. more tax cuts for the rich.. if you know anything about economics and have some morals, you'd know that tax cuts for the rich are the worst thing to do.hojobojo
The Dems. have a majority in both the house and senate, in the senate they just don't have a 60-member majority needed to block filibustering. A new form of the bill just passed in the senate because 3 republicans got on board with it. The rich already pay the vast majority of the taxes. The problem isn't that the rich aren't paying thier share.
I mean we are told to be fiscally responsible in our everyday lives, meaning if you can't afford it, don't buy it, yet our very own government ignores basic economic fact. If government spending made a country rich, then the Soviet Union would have been the most prosperous country in the world. And too many people are following our government's example, and spending more money then they can afford, which is one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in today.
And what happened to the politics of HOPE because lately all I've been hearing from Obama and his friends are the politics of FEAR. Take Nancy Pelosi just recently. She said if we don't pass this stimulus package, America will lose 500 million jobs. First, talk about stoking fear, and second, I didn't even know America had 500 million people. Maybe she is adding in the people from those imaginary states Obama visisted during the campaign. :P I'm calling it right now. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are going to be the downfall of the Democratic Party. And then you have Obama parading around saying this is an "URGENT CRISIS", and if we don't pass this bill, America might never recover. Sounds alot like Bush doesn't it? I mean if this is such a "crisis", then why are hundreds of billions of dollars of this package not going to be used until two to three years from now? This so called "stimulus" bill is nothing more than a spending bill.
And I found Obama's rhetoric and praise for Nancy Pelosi and others who wrote this wasteful proposal an insult. He's little more than the Sham-wow guy harping a product. The only differences are that sham-wow cost less and will actually do something close to what is promised. Seriously, this package is nothing more than a trojan horse being passed as the answer to our prayers. How much more do we want to devalue the dollar???
Two great quotes, and they go for both Dems and Reps "We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." Sir Winston Churchill
"It is important to remember that government interference always means either violent action or the threat of such action. The funds that a government spends for whatever purposes are levied by taxation. And taxes are paid because the taxpayers are afraid of offering resistance to the tax gatherers. They know that any disobedience or resistance is hopeless. As long as this is the state of affairs, the government is able to collect the money that it wants to spend. Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men... Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom." Ludwig von Misepeaceful_anger
maybe you should learn about the basic principles of the macro economy before making such statements. Government spending can help to boost the economy bu strengthening the aggregate demand which means more output and income. And that's what every single country in the world's trying to do with various stimulus packages. Also the government has to do this now, or it could get a lot worse.. you're all looking at this from a short sighted, short-term view. You can have to see the bigger picture and the long term impacts. Oh btw Winston Churchill was a Conservative and he wasn't that great a Prime minister when it came to actually running the country.. so I woun't quote him on this. And why are you quoting Mise? That's just one person's view, doesn't mean that he's right.
[QUOTE="hojobojo"]Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the democrats have a majority in the House of Representatives but not in the Senate? So why are you blaming Obama? Also it's better than anything the Republicans are suggesting.. more tax cuts for the rich.. if you know anything about economics and have some morals, you'd know that tax cuts for the rich are the worst thing to do.fidosim
The Dems. have a majority in both the house and senate, in the senate they just don't have a 60-member majority needed to block filibustering. A new form of the bill just passed in the senate because 3 republicans got on board with it. The rich already pay the vast majority of the taxes. The problem isn't that the rich aren't paying thier share. Oh rightt so why did they change the bill for the Senate then? And well it's better to tax the rich and redistrbute income to the poorer people in this situation because as people become richer, they spend less proportion of their income, whereas the poor spend more which will help to stimulate the economy. That's the solution to the problem.
Why do people want to give money to people who aren't eligible to vote or be drafted? I don't understand this logic. We are in America, our country. We pay taxes for these things. These people don't pay taxes and don't have the obligations of American citizens, but they still recieve some of the benifits...Wasdie
actually some do pay taxes via payroll deductions depending on how they are paid.. they are not eligible for refunds though..
anyway imo our ecomonic system is broken.. flat out. it is dependant upon consumers spending beyond their incomes to sustain the "prosperity" we enjoyed for years... obviously this is a stupid way to run things... if our economy is dependant on consumers living beyond their means and when they stop doing that and spending money like responsible adults causes a collapse in the system then its clearly a broken system. americans need to get used to the fact that we cannot sustain this system indefinately. we'll have to allow the shrinking of the economy from its overinflated state to occur rather than try to sustain it indefinately via gov't spending.
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