So anybody know what the "good" feminists are doing?

[QUOTE="frostybanana"][QUOTE="-Big_Red-"] Yes I do. But not as far as sexism goes. I mean.... How bad can it be? I'm black, and racism doesn't really bother me, so I guess that my unsensitive nature talking.-Big_Red-

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"][QUOTE="frostybanana"] Well, if it was any sort of physical or mental abuse as a result of ones gender, I'd think it would be a pretty traumatic thing to bring up. Besides that, it's personal. It's human nature to not want to air out things like that on an internet forum. frostybanana

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"] This is true. Let's not forget that atleast 1/3 of the males.-Big_Red-

.. Huh? Feminist is a dirty term.. Its basically for womens rights.. There are numerous agencies that do this in the background by doing issue advocacy and the like.. The feminism you discuss is not the mainstream nor does it have any sway in actual politics of today.. Its like every crazy fringe group out there.

Prove it.. Furthermore in the "civilized world" women still have less control. They hold few political office, they hold less wealth, and for the United States they get paid on average siignificantly less.

where im going is, if a man can't reasonably handle a woman, then he is not a man.

so he should b oppressed by women

urbangamez

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

.. Huh? Feminist is a dirty term.. Its basically for womens rights.. There are numerous agencies that do this in the background by doing issue advocacy and the like.. The feminism you discuss is not the mainstream nor does it have any sway in actual politics of today.. Its like every crazy fringe group out there.

Prove it.. Furthermore in the "civilized world" women still have less control. They hold few political office, they hold less wealth, and for the United States they get paid on average siignificantly less.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"] Even if they are mainsteam, it seems like they have more effect on the world that "good" feminists.-Big_Red-

Prove it.. Furthermore in the "civilized world" women still have less control. They hold few political office, they hold less wealth, and for the United States they get paid on average siignificantly less.

What studies? Because..http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.htmlEven the most optemistic ones have it at 10% less, the most grim are 77% of mens pay.. Either way women still get paid partially less..

Due to the fact that more women go to college, and graduate than men, which is due to the fact that women are empowered,

lol explain "emopowered" to me.

and are more likely to recieve a loan/grant/scholorship from schools than men.

Actually no, its extremely slim now.

You said women have less control... Are you serious?

Yes.. Men still control the highest positions in government all.. They also control the majority of wealth.

Did you know that in America because of the VAWA a woman can saw that a man beat her, and he will be arrested without proof/evidence.

... Actually both are taken in for questioning...

[QUOTE="urbangamez"]

where im going is, if a man can't reasonably handle a woman, then he is not a man.

so he should b oppressed by women

-Big_Red-

No offense taken, lol, meditate on it lol, let it sink in, n u will agree, :lol:

rotflmfao on whats happening

Did you know that in America because of the VAWA a woman can saw that a man beat her, and he will be arrested without proof/evidence.

... Actually both are taken in for questioning...

sSubZerOo

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"]

[QUOTE="urbangamez"]

where im going is, if a man can't reasonably handle a woman, then he is not a man.

so he should b oppressed by women

No offense taken, lol, meditate on it lol, let it sink in, n u will agree, :lol:

rotflmfao on whats happening

Did you know that in America because of the VAWA a woman can saw that a man beat her, and he will be arrested without proof/evidence.

... Actually both are taken in for questioning...

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"] No seriously. What you just said makes no logical sense. I will never agree, what you said is foolish(not insulting you BTW) How old are you? If you're below 18 I'll leave you alone.urbangamez

I'm kinda tired, gotta sign out, i'm telling u, if a man lets a woman rule him, he is not a man, he is a child.

A man has to decide, am i a lion or a kitten. thats it for now folks. lol

Feminists need to stop whining and get back in the kitchen.samremnant

[QUOTE="samremnant"]Feminists need to stop whining and get back in the kitchen.surrealnumber5

There is no such thing as a "good" feminist.XiaolinPrincess

why, stripping in clubs, making pornos, and having casual sex with many many men and women, of course!

it "empowers" them.

is a good feminist like a good racist? surrealnumber5

I hate reading people's opinions on feminists in OT... They literally have no idea what feminism actually is.dreDREb13

I hate reading people's opinions on feminists in OT... They literally have no idea what feminism actually is.dreDREb13

why, stripping in clubs, making pornos, and having casual sex with many many men and women, of course!

it "empowers" them.

mrbojangles25

Big-Red, there are a lot of crappy feminists out there. Small, frivolous battles aren't worth waging, and there's a bunch of terrible feminists who have it in their mind that this is the way to fight patriarchy, that this is the way to equity. They're wrong. I say this as a single feminist, but they're dead wrong. They're the disconnected feminists stuck in either academia or their own elitist groups with no notion of society around them, and they lash out at what they deem incorrect without considering the consequences. To combat subtleties in society, which is what patriarchy has been reduced to, one needs to attack in subtle ways, or at least from positions that make sense to the average person. Beauty pageants as a whole should not be protested. Instead, child pageants should be pressured to be shut down. I challenge anyone to form a reasonable argument why a 4 year old can be forced to have spray tans, eyebrow waxes, made up like a doll and put into clothing and scenarios rife with innuendo and sex. Grown adults are different. Getting rid of the base pageant culture would be a boon to society IMHO. Child pageants are practically abuse and exploitation. Let them join such festivities as adults, leave their childhoods alone. "Feminists" protesting storm troopers are unaware of the origin of stormtroopers within the Star Wars universe. They're clones. There's no hiring process. These people who protest Vader and the stormtroopers are just disconnected idiots. As a feminist, I've found myself in the past conflicted over battered woman syndrome. I understand that due to complexities in life, one cannot always reach out for help, and sometimes matters have to be taken into your own hands. However, I feel that if you're able to take such action against your assailant, and there was planning beforehand, then that is still murder. A reduced sentence due to the psychological damage done that put the woman in such a state, sure, but unless it's a spur of the moment self defense killing, there really should be legal penalty. Also, while battered-men's shalters are very few, there ARE a fair bit of sex-neutral shelters. They advertise as women's shelters primarily, but will take in men. There was one in my hometown. Still there's a huge issue regarding masculinity and why men don't come forth about the abuse they take, and that needs to be worked on before we'll ever see a visible increase in shelters for battered men. I'm not seeing that Jan Helin claims to be a feminist, just a swedish blogger. :\ So-called "Girl-Power" isn't a strictly feminist stance. Swedish feminists have been working to implement men into more diverse roles in relationships and in families, no feminist advocates domestic violence. We don't want violence at all. So yeah, female on male violence? Not a feminist stance, not even amongst the most radical swedish feminists. Urinals, and men standing while peeing, aren't offensive. However, Sex-neutral washrooms(as in, the individual ones, both a urinal and a stall) should be much more available in public areas. Whatever feminists these are, they're approaching this from "equality", not equity. With them, it has to be the same treatment or nothing at all. I favor equity, which is fairness, and understanding that every situation cannot be handled in the same way within different contexts, and that if equity is established, it will eventually lead to equality, or as close as one can come to it. As for Toy Story, I don't see why this complaint is news. Anyone with eyes can see Toy Story is absolutely as gendered as *gasp* the real world toy market is. Yes, Toy Story 3 is gendered, thus sexist, but it is so on a rational basis. The toys are owned by a boy, and Boys often have toys that are geared towards boys.Pixar had plenty of chances to level it out when the toys left Andy's care, but they really didn't do much there. The movie's treatment of the Ken doll was also stereotypical...which may have produced some laughs, but it encourages such negative stereotypes. Have you ever known gay men who went from no lisp to audible lisp upon coming out? It's part of that negative stereotype that's perpetuated, and it really needs to stop. I get that Toy Story is about toys, and the message of the movie is fine, but the undertones are not very pleasant. Then again, it's not entirely Pixar's fault. They wouldn't be making the movie if the toy market wasn't so gendered, and if parents didn't perpetuate gender stereotypes(did you know pink used to be a strong manly colour, and that blue was a placid, weak colour? That boy infants were garbed in pink, and girls in blue? Look how that's changed :P). So yeah, that's my take Big-Red. Come at me bro :PLockedge

Good Lockedge, good:P. I was beginning to think that "good" feminists don't exist. But, can you blame me? It just seems like you guys are getting out worked by the bad ones, and you're letting them take over your group. But be honest. Would any women who had a choice, for instance you. Would you rather sit down, or stand up while peeing?-Big_Red-

Sitting down is more economic for me. It's just urination, it's not part of my identity. It's an act of excreting fluids. I don't think it's a big deal :P I know a few guys who prefer to sit, but that's probably because they hate the whole supposedly-awkward urinal code thing guys do.

Yeah, with the 3rd wave of feminism having moved primarily online, and being mostly scattered(as opposed to the second wave's organized conglomerate), it's hard to get our issues noticed. The rich extremist groups band together and do a disservice to feminism every now and then, and more often than not, right-wing media keeps regurgitating these stereotypes of what Feminists are.

Fact is, feminism was on its way to the mainstream and then....it got trapped in schools. Cancel that, it got trapped in Post-Secondary schools. Suddenly, feminist-written children's books and publishing companies dried up and went under. Whatever progress made there vanished in a fortnight. Positive media coverage dried up while the (as I call them) "neo-feminists"(the ones who aren't educated on feminism, but who were attracted to the basic radical jargon being thrown around earlier) were the only ones out in the open still fighting. They were the face that emerged when the real feminists were too busy in schools and in their own discussion groups, writing disserations and forgetting about the real world around them. Feminist literature was once burgeoning, now it's dropped in favor of scholarly articles no teenager will ever read.

No teenager is going to get the modern voice of feminism speaking to them before various external sources taint the history and idea of feminism. By the time they're exposed to feminism, they won't recognize it, or they'll dismiss/attack it. It's unfortunate. In some countries, progress is being made. In Sweden, for example, they've worked towards reasonable solutions for parental leave that have helped women retain and gain full time work, fight workplace discrimination, positively affect the male workforce by pushing less required overtime on them, and have gotten men more involved in the parenting process. While more women take parental leave than men still, an increasing number of men are opting to take the leave to stay home and raise their kid for a few weeks. It's, afaik, helped the workforce in efficiency, in balance, it's helped the economy...while I've only read a few articles on it, the whole thing seems like something to be celebrated. It's a big picture kind of thing.

Feminists don't believe in a zero-sum game. We feel that one can gain without another losing, and that a properly planned out, researched means of finding solutions to our problems will aid in that effort. Men aren't at fault, women aren't at fault. There's a system in place that either needs a lot of tweaking, or needs to be broken down and rebuilt piece by piece. There's a lot going on that needs to be worked on, that needs fixing. Some don't feel there is, some feel feminism has accomplished all it should, and that anything more will push women into states of superior power. To that, I ask for an explanation on why we've been creating initiatives to better the positions of men as well as initiatives to better the positions of women. Men are in a position where they're exploited and stripped of identity en masse. I hear men say that feminism is wrong because they as men hold no power, and men could not possibly oppress women. This is not a black and white issue, I see many men without power. I want to help empower them too, but it's hard because some traits of modern masculinity are so firmly entrenched, and it's hard to break through to men and get them to understand what's bearing down on them on a daily basis.

And the more I try to help people understand, the more I'm brushed aside as some crazy feminist lunatic with a terrible agenda. All I can do is my best.

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"][QUOTE="urbangamez"]

Very funny thread Big Red. The good feminists are fightn for the rights of women all over.

sSubZerOo

:lol: What? Are you serious? Tell that to the African Continent, Tell that to the Middle Eastern Region.. Tell that to China.. Tell that to the majority of the most powerful positions in the world both wealth wise and political power wise..

Really? For all the regions you mentioned, its one thing to care about women's rights and status, but its incorrect to assume that women may actually be where they are due to discrimination.

• First of all, the vast majority of the ****ing African Continent is a 3rd world crapsack hellhole. Women simply CAN'T be empowered in a place where physical strength still rules for a large part and with an absolute lack of modern conviences we here take for granted. Secondly, women and men in many parts of the continent still largely live in seperate spheres in their own communities; the concept of women's equality goes flying out of the window when African women interact with their men FAR less then we do here in modern society and are less under the thumb of the rule of man. Thirdly, the worse the women go through (aside from possibly the mass rape campaigns) are NOTHING compared to the experiences of thousands of boys being forced to serve as child soldiers for local warloards.
• You forget (or are unimformed) that China has a severely lopsided gender ratio in terms of an over abundanceof males. Women there essentially have huge sexual power, greater than women here in the West due,and the men there have almost NO ability to complain for the women are practically guarenteed to be able to find another man if they desire to leave their current one. And though females are aborted over there more than males, recognize this as aside effect of the one child policy and that MOTHERS THEMSELVES have a huge say in deciding to kill the female fetuses as boys are more likely to support their parents into their old age (the girls will rather marry a provider than labor herself).
• As far as the Middle East in concerned, though I agree that women DO have their problems there and that they can be discussed, there status there may not be so much based on sexism (which is a precedent required for a women's rights movement to truly be effective IMO) but based on the realities of life those regions face, particularly almost constant fighting and warring which demands cultures and communities that put a premium on masculinity and male characteristics and the ability to stabalize the region will be based on strategies far more complex than simply empowering women and educating girls.

As far as wealth and political power goes, the vast majority of wealth is held in the hands of a very small minority of men. Provided, this does concern women but you can't seriously use the system to extract the wealth of the very men who RUN the system, for all political lobbying would do is empower those men who hold the wealth to extract the wealth from the lower 99% of males without getting women anywhere closer to those who are the ones truly responsible for the wealth disparity. And as far as political power goes, women are the majority of the damn voting block. Who is anybody to complain if women decide that a man would be better at furthering their interests than another woman (they wouldn't exactly vote for him if they didn't think otherwise)?

Have you ever known gay men who went from no lisp to audible lisp upon coming out?Lockedge

Yeah. I never understood that.

:lol: What? Are you serious? Tell that to the African Continent, Tell that to the Middle Eastern Region.. Tell that to China.. Tell that to the majority of the most powerful positions in the world both wealth wise and political power wise..

sSubZerOo

Like I said, once we've succeeded with our cultural imperialism, we'll fix all these primitives. Just give it some more time.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="-Big_Red-"] What rights? Women have more "rights" than men overall in the world. Everything that I posted is factual.rolfboy

:lol: What? Are you serious? Tell that to the African Continent, Tell that to the Middle Eastern Region.. Tell that to China.. Tell that to the majority of the most powerful positions in the world both wealth wise and political power wise..

Really? For all the regions you mentioned, its one thing to care about women's rights and status, but its incorrect to assume that women may actually be where they are due to discrimination.

• First of all, the vast majority of the ****ing African Continent is a 3rd world crapsack hellhole. Women simply CAN'T be empowered in a place where physical strength still rules for a large part and with an absolute lack of modern conviences we here take for granted. Secondly, women and men in many parts of the continent still largely live in seperate spheres in their own communities; the concept of women's equality goes flying out of the window when African women interact with their men FAR less then we do here in modern society and are less under the thumb of the rule of man. Thirdly, the worse the women go through (aside from possibly the mass rape campaigns) are NOTHING compared to the experiences of thousands of boys being forced to serve as child soldiers for local warloards.

Are you seriously trying to compare the two? they are both bad the fact of the matter is in the most parts of the world women do not have equal rights compraed to men.. This isn't suggesting women are always the victims.. But you guys simply are dillusional if you think women some how have the most power overall.. They don't.

• You forget (or are unimformed) that China has a severely lopsided gender ratio in terms of an over abundanceof males. Women there essentially have huge sexual power, greater than women here in the West due,and the men there have almost NO ability to complain for the women are practically guarenteed to be able to find another man if they desire to leave their current one. And though females are aborted over there more than males, recognize this as aside effect of the one child policy and that MOTHERS THEMSELVES have a huge say in deciding to kill the female fetuses as boys are more likely to support their parents into their old age (the girls will rather marry a provider than labor herself).

You want to know why that is? Because parents think that having a male child is MUCH better.. So they abandon the female child.. This is brought upon on the view of thinking that having a male child is SUPERIOR.. And sexual power? Seriously? Men still control the majority of wealth and power in that nation..

• As far as the Middle East in concerned, though I agree that women DO have their problems there and that they can be discussed, there status there may not be so much based on sexism (which is a precedent required for a women's rights movement to truly be effective IMO) but based on the realities of life those regions face, particularly almost constant fighting and warring which demands cultures and communities that put a premium on masculinity and male characteristics and the ability to stabalize the region will be based on strategies far more complex than simply empowering women and educating girls.

This has little to do with the fact of warring but of social development.. Countries with low social developement (or different) will tend to treat women has property or second class citizens.

As far as wealth and political power goes, the vast majority of wealth is held in the hands of a very small minority of men. Provided, this does concern women

Concern? What are you talking about we are pointing out about FACTS here in showing how much BS is spewed about how men are some how the ones with less power.. When a simple look at the facts will clearly show the complete obvious.

but youcan't seriously use the system to extract the wealth of the very men who RUN the system,

What does this have ANYTHING to do with the topic? Your talking about taxation something that has nothing to do with gender.

for all political lobbying

They already do this.. Furthermore political lobbying takes on many shapes and forms nor is it the absolutely balance changer.. I suggest you look up what exactly political lobbying is because its not the end all of issue advocacy.

would do is empower those men who hold the wealth to extract the wealth from the lower 99% of males

Yes because the taxes and extraction consists of just the men, not the women as well in the US.. :roll:

without getting women anywhere closer to those who are the ones truly responsible for the wealth disparity.

Who exactly do you think is responsible? I just pointed it out how guys who think men are some how less then women are full of it.

And as far as political power goes, women are the majority of the damn voting block.

No they aren't.. If you look at statistics its relatively even.. But say that it wasn't.. That has nothing to do with the system being unfair but voter turn out.. But yet agian no they are not.

Who is anybody to complain if women decide that a man would be better at furthering their interests than another woman (they wouldn't exactly vote for him if they didn't think otherwise)?

No because women and any minority just don't vote for those reasons.. Its a issue but there are general issues which are much more important overall.. You seem to have a overly simplistic view of the political process.. Women do not some how control it.. So yet again I am merely pointing out how full of it people are in declaring how men are pawns to women.. That just isn't the case.. If you look through out the world.. You will notice that every place of political power whether its military, dictator or elected official is held by a man.. The heads of all major religious orders are held by men (Pope, Dali Lama, Islamic Cleric's etc etc).. The Richest and most powerful organizations in the world are held predominately by men.. As I have shown earlier women have at the most positive figures in the United States still make less than 10% of a males wage.. This isn't defending extreme feminism.. But it just seems like many in this thread ignore basic unavoidable facts about this..

Feminists are trolls, serious trolls. Also women have a lot of jobs now, in fact more so than men. Dude, I did testing for detention officer, and they were looking for women, that is discrimination. I also read that men are getting taken out of government positions, and then they replace them with women. It is all pure politics, like my professor who tried to be a judge, even though he convinced the whole room he should be a judge, and they wanted him to be a judge... The guy who got him thinking of applying, told him that the governor has to have female judges... Basically what we have is gender quotas, get women into positions not because they are more qualified, but strictly because they are women. Oh well, just ignore them, and they will go away.

Here is a more ridiculous statement I have heard in my class "men have been screwing things up for far too long, it is time to put women in charge."

>_____________________________________> I think this is a mentality from older generations, but I think younger generations who were not born in the seventies probably dont think like that at all. I think the seventies was a stupid time in life, people got high way too much, and all this feminist bs started as a result. That is a very good theory!

Reply to SubZero:

Are you seriously trying to compare the two? they are both bad the fact of the matter is in the most parts of the world women do not have equal rights compraed to men.. This isn't suggesting women are always the victims.. But you guys simply are dillusional if you think women some how have the most power overall.. They don't.

Uhh women not having much in the way of rights thanks in part to the leaders though DOESN'T necessarily mean that those same men don't treat the majority of other men like crap; Africa would be more comparable to Ancient Greece ifwhat you saywere the case. Such a minimalist view of the problems in Africa and making it gender devisive (not talking about you in this thread since its related the point of the topic, but much our policy regarding the region) underscores considerations for more effective strategies (like calling out those rulers for the scum that they are rather than hoping they adopt egalitarianism).

And remember my other point, the issue of women's status compared to men in many parts of Africa doesn't take into accountthe factthat women and men live in seperate spheres within their own communities with their own rules and customs and have limited engagement from the other sphere outside of marriage partners and special occasions. How can women in a good portion of Africa exactly be oppressed or disempowered by men if said spheres of women are ultimately run by older women?

You want to know why that is? Because parents think that having a male child is MUCH better.. So they abandon the female child.. This is brought upon on the view of thinking that having a male child is SUPERIOR.. And sexual power? Seriously? Men still control the majority of wealth and power in that nation..

Remember that the traditional family and many of the customs associated to it is still a central institution in China. Women upon marriage leave their own family sphere and marry into their husband's. Men are considered to still be connected with their parents and extended paternal family. And though this doesn't actually affect either's ability to support their families, women aren't shamed by the community for not taking care of their parents after getting married while men are shamed to death for abandoning their parents; such an arrangement is understood and enforced in partby women (both by mothers and by daughters who want to focus care on THEIR kids).

And though men have the majority of wealth in China, women who marry these men get access towards said wealth; they wouldn't actually marry themif that wasn't the case. Have you actually considered that many women may rather marry men who amass wealth than endeavor in the workplace to make that money themselves? Movements to empower women in other countries MUST take into account what the women of those countries desire. The values Western women hold aren't the same as those in other cultures afterall.

This has little to do with the fact of warring but of social development.. Countries with low social developement (or different) will tend to treat women has property or second ****citizens.

Thing is though is that men are the ones who predominately build infastructure thanks to the physical sacrifices such development requires. You recognize that infastructure is key to women's status compared to men so logically speaking, educating and empowering the men in those poorer Muslim countries in order to get them to start work on infastructure would do a lot more for women's empowerment for those regions than the equality dogma (whether or not such concerns are justified) at least until the regions have a comparable standard of life. Putting the cart in front of the horse and all that.

What does this have ANYTHING to do with the topic? Your talking about taxation something that has nothing to do with gender.

You talk about the wealth disparity, but said wealth disparity is casued by a small minority of very wealthy men who hold the majority of overall wealth. They have clout in Washington and options to exploit loopholes to prevent them from getting taxed. Women's rights have traditionally been won through burecracy. The wealth disparity simply cannot reach true equality until women's rights advocates adopt a different strategy other than moral shaming and dogma (not bad in of itself mind you)which has little effect on the big wigs in Washington. All further lobbying does is give those elites who are responsible for the wealth disparity the moral authority and the social approval to implement more taxation on the masses without seriously closing the wealth disparity; aka a poorly thought out strategy.

Yes because the taxes and extraction consists of just the men, not the women as well in the US.. :roll:

Men are the ones who pay the most in taxes. Women have the choice of marrying a man who will provide for them as opposedto working (that's not even getting into the social programs designed specifically for women that minimizes their need to work). Men (with very few exceptions) have to work to get money. Such a system of gender relations GUARENTEES that men will be taxed more than women through simple makeup of the overall taxbase, all other things being assumed equal. Such a reality dictates that the concerns of men in regards to taxation are more important than those of women (well, should) no matter how much this specific point disenfranchises women.

Who exactly do you think is responsible? I just pointed it out how guys who think men are some how less then women are full of it.

The wealthy elite.

No they aren't.. If you look at statistics its relatively even.. But say that it wasn't.. That has nothing to do with the system being unfair but voter turn out.. But yet agian no they are not.

In that case wouldn't that be, you know, WOMEN'S FAULT and their and their sympathizers responsibility to do something about other than complain about men and/or unfairness?

No because women and any minority just don't vote for those reasons.. Its a issue but there are general issues which are much more important overall.. You seem to have a overly simplistic view of the political process.. Women do not some how control it.. So yet again I am merely pointing out how full of it people are in declaring how men are pawns to women.. That just isn't the case.. If you look through out the world.. You will notice that every place of political power whether its military, dictator or elected official is held by a man.. The heads of all major religious orders are held by men (Pope, Dali Lama, Islamic Cleric's etc etc).. The Richest and most powerful organizations in the world are held predominately by men.. As I have shown earlier women have at the most positive figures in the United States still make less than 10% of a males wage.. This isn't defending extreme feminism.. But it just seems like many in this thread ignore basic unavoidable facts about this..

My logic can be applied to all issues. If the women voters repeatedly decide in part that a man is more capable of furthering their interests (which doesn't necessarily have to be gender based), then who is anybody to complain that women aren't in Washington? The desires of the majority of women should logically take precedence over that of a minority who want to be politicians.

who are the good feminists on OT? dystopian and?Jandurin

and, kitchen worker number 532.

But to be fair, its not their fault they were born women.

[QUOTE="XiaolinPrincess"]There is no such thing as a "good" feminist.-Big_Red-

The good feminists are in my kitchen making me dinner.

The good feminists are in my kitchen making me dinner.

ImaPirate0202

A good feminist* can be doing whatever she likes, as long as it isn't complaining about something to me.

*Replace "feminist" with "woman."

The good feminists are in my kitchen making me dinner.

ImaPirate0202