The Fallacy of "Nothing to Hide" logic.

Sorry. Had to post after writing all of this:

Responding to: "People only know what they think they have read in the liberal media. I also take the stance, I have nothing to hide so I have nothing to worry about."

How would you feel about the current provisions of the Patriot Act if the Executive branch suddenly swung to ultraliberal Eeevil and Rush Limbaugh fans and NRA members started disappearing in the night? Even if liberal control was only over the executive branch, congress would have zero oversight in the matter or even awareness of the surveilance that made it possible to single these people out. There would be no way to investigate. The axe swings both ways. Or what would all of us do if key members of the administration suddenly started making a killing in the stock market off of insider trading based on the information they don't have to tell anybody they got their hands on through e-spying? And what about business concerns? Plenty of legitimate reasons to keep secrets there. What if competitors who happen to be friendly with the administration suddenly know your every move because the VP has been handing databases of all your e-mail correspondence to them?

In spite of many of its higher-minded ideals, the United States government is founded on cynicism and the worst case scenario not faith in humanity to do the right thing when it really really counts. That's what all those "checks and balances" were put in there for in the first place. When power goes unchecked, abuse is inevitable. Haliburton's no-bid contracts are proof enough of that.

The laws and procedures that the Patriot Act have swept aside are there to protect everybody from potential abuse, not just liberals or criminals. Even liberals don't necessarily like unpopular and sordid types that the ACLU will defend sometimes but we can look at the situation and see that what the ACLU is really doing is safeguarding the system itself from being altered into something that can be easily abused by the unethical. Since both sides have plenty of that going around, I would caution you to be a little less shortsighted.

So yes, when a drug ring goes free because the ACLU went to bat for them due to a failure on the cops part to properly abide by search and seizure laws I am grateful to them for reminding the powers that be that there are no exceptions for procedures that are meant to protect us all from receiving a knock on our door in the middle of the night based on some less ethical cop's whim. It's not about coddling anybody.

Sorry. Had to post after writing all of this:

Responding to: "People only know what they think they have read in the liberal media. I also take the stance, I have nothing to hide so I have nothing to worry about."

How would you feel about the current provisions of the Patriot Act if the Executive branch suddenly swung to ultraliberal Eeevil and Rush Limbaugh fans and NRA members started disappearing in the night? Even if liberal control was only over the executive branch, congress would have zero oversight in the matter or even awareness of the surveilance that made it possible to single these people out. There would be no way to investigate. The axe swings both ways. Or what would all of us do if key members of the administration suddenly started making a killing in the stock market off of insider trading based on the information they don't have to tell anybody they got their hands on through e-spying? And what about business concerns? Plenty of legitimate reasons to keep secrets there. What if competitors who happen to be friendly with the administration suddenly know your every move because the VP has been handing databases of all your e-mail correspondence to them?

In spite of many of its higher-minded ideals, the United States government is founded on cynicism and the worst case scenario not faith in humanity to do the right thing when it really really counts. That's what all those "checks and balances" were put in there for in the first place. When power goes unchecked, abuse is inevitable. Haliburton's no-bid contracts are proof enough of that.

The laws and procedures that the Patriot Act have swept aside are there to protect everybody from potential abuse, not just liberals or criminals. Even liberals don't necessarily like unpopular and sordid types that the ACLU will defend sometimes but we can look at the situation and see that what the ACLU is really doing is safeguarding the system itself from being altered into something that can be easily abused by the unethical. Since both sides have plenty of that going around, I would caution you to be a little less shortsighted.

So yes, when a drug ring goes free because the ACLU went to bat for them due to a failure on the cops part to properly abide by search and seizure laws I am grateful to them for reminding the powers that be that there are no exceptions for procedures that are meant to protect us all from receiving a knock on our door in the middle of the night based on some less ethical cop's whim. It's not about coddling anybody.

PherdnutChiken

Thank you for using my quote to try to prove your point.

I will admit I have not read 100% of the Patriot Act. But how many of you who agree with this post has read any of it? How many of you have heard opinions on it in the media, or just read about it on message boards? How many of you are old enough to vote and actually vote?

I have taken the time to read portions of it. Sure I have not read it all, but I have read some. Do I understand all of what is said, heck no. That act is written in vague language, just as most bills are in congress. That is why we have our court system to provide checks and balances. That is also why we have three sections to our government.

To imply people are taking advantage of the Patriot Act for financial gain is a little far fetched. To imply they use information to make a fortune in the stock market is again, far fetched. Securities fraud is a serious crime in our country and they do investigate that rather strongly. That is how we tracked several million of Bin Laden's money after 9/11 and froze it.

In my opinion the ACLU is a total waste of good lawyers. They get people who are breaking the law off on a procedural error and applaud it as a victory for civil rights. Yeah, it's a good thing to get a drug dealer off so he can go out and poison society more. Just like it is worth the Supreme Courts time to hear a case about "In God We Trust" on our currency and coinage.

Just my opinion.

Believe what you want I will believe what I want and thank god we love in a country where we can do this.

Everybody has something to hide. *resods 6x3 foot section of backyard*sca321

:lol:

Nuclear weapons are far from a gun. They tell the other guy you had better think twice about pulling anything with us. Just after World War II the Soviet Union was to pull out of its half of Iran. They had agreed to this when the US, UK, and they invaded to prevent Iran from supporting Hitler

After the war when the time came for everyone to pull out the Soviets kept their troops in the country and refused to leave. The US at the time was the only country to have nuclear weapons. We had actually used both of our weapons and did not have any more. We also had B-29's and the Soviets had nothing to be able to reach them. So, to bluff the Soviets we took the 529th bomb wing to India. The Soviets knew which until this was and knew they could drop a bomb pretty much anywhere they wanted to, they pulled out.

Some Arab countries have publicly state they would wipe Israel out if they could do so. Iran has stated this more than once. But they will not attack Israel because of the fact they have nuclear weapons.

To satisfy your argument of giving the nerd in a room full of bullies a gun, look at North Korea.

Nuclear weapons are far from a gun. They tell the other guy you had better think twice about pulling anything with us. Just after World War II the Soviet Union was to pull out of its half of Iran. They had agreed to this when the US, UK, and they invaded to prevent Iran from supporting Hitler

After the war when the time came for everyone to pull out the Soviets kept their troops in the country and refused to leave. The US at the time was the only country to have nuclear weapons. We had actually used both of our weapons and did not have any more. We also had B-29's and the Soviets had nothing to be able to reach them. So, to bluff the Soviets we took the 529th bomb wing to India. The Soviets knew which until this was and knew they could drop a bomb pretty much anywhere they wanted to, they pulled out.

Some Arab countries have publicly state they would wipe Israel out if they could do so. Iran has stated this more than once. But they will not attack Israel because of the fact they have nuclear weapons.

To satisfy your argument of giving the nerd in a room full of bullies a gun, look at North Korea.

goldenpony

By that logic, we should give Taiwan nukes too. In fact, Taiwan has more of a right to soverinty then Israel, since they chose independence, versus being a country was forced externally into a nation, then annexed another 2/3 of another country. Not to mention, kicked out Arabs from their country while at the same time, not giving them citizenship for not being Jewish :|

The point of monitering is not to protech us, its to protect them.

Nuclear weapons are far from a gun. They tell the other guy you had better think twice about pulling anything with us. Just after World War II the Soviet Union was to pull out of its half of Iran. They had agreed to this when the US, UK, and they invaded to prevent Iran from supporting Hitler

After the war when the time came for everyone to pull out the Soviets kept their troops in the country and refused to leave. The US at the time was the only country to have nuclear weapons. We had actually used both of our weapons and did not have any more. We also had B-29's and the Soviets had nothing to be able to reach them. So, to bluff the Soviets we took the 529th bomb wing to India. The Soviets knew which until this was and knew they could drop a bomb pretty much anywhere they wanted to, they pulled out.

Some Arab countries have publicly state they would wipe Israel out if they could do so. Iran has stated this more than once. But they will not attack Israel because of the fact they have nuclear weapons.

To satisfy your argument of giving the nerd in a room full of bullies a gun, look at North Korea.

goldenpony

True, but the difference between Israel and these arab nations is that Israel could nuke an Arab Nation and know that the US, hence the other western nations would still stand beside it. But if an Arab nation used a nuke on Israel, the western nations would attack them asap. I mean just look at Israel's illegal land occupation, which was deemed Illegal by the UN. But is anything ever done about it? no. Do any of the western nations critisize Israel? no. Heck, the barely even talk about it.In the news its always "Palestin this, sanctions on palestine" but not a single word about Israels on going illegal activities :?

[QUOTE="goldenpony"]

Nuclear weapons are far from a gun. They tell the other guy you had better think twice about pulling anything with us. Just after World War II the Soviet Union was to pull out of its half of Iran. They had agreed to this when the US, UK, and they invaded to prevent Iran from supporting Hitler

After the war when the time came for everyone to pull out the Soviets kept their troops in the country and refused to leave. The US at the time was the only country to have nuclear weapons. We had actually used both of our weapons and did not have any more. We also had B-29's and the Soviets had nothing to be able to reach them. So, to bluff the Soviets we took the 529th bomb wing to India. The Soviets knew which until this was and knew they could drop a bomb pretty much anywhere they wanted to, they pulled out.

Some Arab countries have publicly state they would wipe Israel out if they could do so. Iran has stated this more than once. But they will not attack Israel because of the fact they have nuclear weapons.

To satisfy your argument of giving the nerd in a room full of bullies a gun, look at North Korea.

-Serpahim-

True, but the difference between Israel and these arab nations is that Israel could nuke an Arab Nation and know that the US, hence the other western nations would still stand beside it. But if an Arab nation used a nuke on Israel, the western nations would attack them asap. I mean just look at Israel's illegal land occupation, which was deemed Illegal by the UN. But is anything ever done about it? no. Do any of the western nations critisize Israel? no. Heck, the barely even talk about it.In the news its always "Palestin this, sanctions on palestine" but not a single word about Israels on going illegal activities :?

[QUOTE="-Serpahim-"][QUOTE="goldenpony"]

Nuclear weapons are far from a gun. They tell the other guy you had better think twice about pulling anything with us. Just after World War II the Soviet Union was to pull out of its half of Iran. They had agreed to this when the US, UK, and they invaded to prevent Iran from supporting Hitler

After the war when the time came for everyone to pull out the Soviets kept their troops in the country and refused to leave. The US at the time was the only country to have nuclear weapons. We had actually used both of our weapons and did not have any more. We also had B-29's and the Soviets had nothing to be able to reach them. So, to bluff the Soviets we took the 529th bomb wing to India. The Soviets knew which until this was and knew they could drop a bomb pretty much anywhere they wanted to, they pulled out.

Some Arab countries have publicly state they would wipe Israel out if they could do so. Iran has stated this more than once. But they will not attack Israel because of the fact they have nuclear weapons.

To satisfy your argument of giving the nerd in a room full of bullies a gun, look at North Korea.

sca321

True, but the difference between Israel and these arab nations is that Israel could nuke an Arab Nation and know that the US, hence the other western nations would still stand beside it. But if an Arab nation used a nuke on Israel, the western nations would attack them asap. I mean just look at Israel's illegal land occupation, which was deemed Illegal by the UN. But is anything ever done about it? no. Do any of the western nations critisize Israel? no. Heck, the barely even talk about it.In the news its always "Palestin this, sanctions on palestine" but not a single word about Israels on going illegal activities :?

I agree. We back them, but only to a certian extent.