The Heresy of the Catholic Church

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Wiimotefan

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#151 Wiimotefan
Member since 2010 • 4151 Posts

No news here. Christianity has been so heavily distorted over the years its insane. One of the big reasons why so many people laugh and poke fun at the religion is because of all the nonsense, inconsistency and embarrassing contradictions. When you look at the teachings of Christ on their own, things are fairly straight forward, but when you mix in all the crap that came afterwards you have an embarrassing mess.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, but I take no part in the practice modern "Christianity" at all. Especially not in the Vatican brand.

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Philokalia

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#152 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

No news here. Christianity has been so heavily distorted over the years its insane. One of the big reasons why so many people laugh and poke fun at the religion is because of all the nonsense, inconsistency and embarrassing contradictions. When you look at the teachings of Christ on their own, things are fairly straight forward, but when you mix in all the crap that came afterwards you have an embarrassing mess.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, but I take no part in the practice modern "Christianity" at all. Especially not in the Vatican brand.

Wiimotefan

Tell us how and when it was distorted.

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Wiimotefan

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#153 Wiimotefan
Member since 2010 • 4151 Posts

[QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

No news here. Christianity has been so heavily distorted over the years its insane. One of the big reasons why so many people laugh and poke fun at the religion is because of all the nonsense, inconsistency and embarrassing contradictions. When you look at the teachings of Christ on their own, things are fairly straight forward, but when you mix in all the crap that came afterwards you have an embarrassing mess.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, but I take no part in the practice modern "Christianity" at all. Especially not in the Vatican brand.

Philokalia

Tell us how and when it was distorted.

:lol:

Bit of a loaded question there dont you think? Lets start simple. The Trinity. A vague, nonsense concept. One that no Christian I've ever met has been able to explain. Usually after a long winded conversation I am left with the typical frustrated response of "I'll pray for you!".

Its a distortion. It makes the religion look silly and hard to accept for the thinking man. And most importantly its not a teaching of Christ. What right do the men that came after Christ have that allows them to amend such a silly belief?

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ferrari2001

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#154 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

tldr.jpg

Although I'm pretty sure celibacy isn't a teaching of Jesus but was a church imposed rule to stop Priests from having children so that way their children could not inherit the church land that the priest presided over.... or something to that affect (not sure if you actually said this, again tldr).

October_Tide
sigh... Christ tells us "others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." (Mt 19:12), meaning some people are called to live a life of celibacy, and if you can live it you should. Celibacy is not an evil, you can choose to be celibate. The Church doesn't force it's priests to be celibate. It only ordains those who WILLINGLY make the decision to remain celibate. There were historical events that led to making priests celibate, but it isn't forced on anyone. And Jesus himself was a celibate, and it certainly is a practiced state of life in the New Testament. Before celibacy for priests was the norm, (in the 1st-5th Centuries) Priests could be married but the rule was they were suppose to be continent after ordination. Meaning they couldn't have sexual relations with their wives. Celibacy is nothing new in the Church. And to say Jesus doesn't mention it is idiotic.
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Philokalia

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#155 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

:lol:

Bit of a loaded question there dont you think? Lets start simple. The Trinity. A vague, nonsense concept. One that no Christian I've ever met has been able to explain. Usually after a long winded conversation I am left with the typical frustrated response of "I'll pray for you!".

Its a distortion. It makes the religion look silly and hard to accept for the thinking man. And most importantly its not a teaching of Christ. What right do the men that came after Christ have that allows them to amend such a silly belief?

Wiimotefan

What is not understandable about the trinity? What is nonsensical about it?

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MlauTheDaft

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#156 MlauTheDaft
Member since 2011 • 5189 Posts

Can't we just let the topic die?

Religeous discusson never amounts to anything.

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ferrari2001

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#157 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

[QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

:lol:

Bit of a loaded question there dont you think? Lets start simple. The Trinity. A vague, nonsense concept. One that no Christian I've ever met has been able to explain. Usually after a long winded conversation I am left with the typical frustrated response of "I'll pray for you!".

Its a distortion. It makes the religion look silly and hard to accept for the thinking man. And most importantly its not a teaching of Christ. What right do the men that came after Christ have that allows them to amend such a silly belief?

Philokalia

What is not understandable about the trinity? What is nonsensical about it?

Actually the very idea of Trinity is incomprehensible. How can God be both 1 and yet 3 persons at the same time. We see it in terms of relationship but we as humans cannot comprehend God and this idea of the trinity because we are finite creatures. However to respond to the original post, the men that came after Christ have every right to amend this belief. Christ gave them the keys to the kingdom. The Apostle and their subsequent successors are the ones Christ entrusted with His Church, to guide, lead, and teach the people. So they have every right to make that a teaching.
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hartsickdiscipl

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#158 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"] Your right Nicaea did not determine the canon. However it was the most important council of it's time. It set the theological standard that is still with us today. This standard played a huge role in which writings were to be included in the bible's canon at the end of the 4th C. Philokalia

A standard which they got wrong. Even if you don't include any of the other Apocryphal texts in the canon, the Book of Enoch changes the whole idea of what happens when a person is taken to heaven. Part of the reason why the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has this book in their Bible.

The Ethiopian Church accepts Nicea....

Obviously they don't accept all of the decisions made at Nicaea, since they have the Book of Enoch in their Bible canon.

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Philokalia

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#159 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Actually the very idea of Trinity is incomprehensible. How can God be both 1 and yet 3 persons at the same time. We see it in terms of relationship but we as humans cannot comprehend God and this idea of the trinity because we are finite creatures. However to respond to the original post, the men that came after Christ have every right to amend this belief. Christ gave them the keys to the kingdom. The Apostle and their subsequent successors are the ones Christ entrusted with His Church, to guide, lead, and teach the people. So they have every right to make that a teaching. ferrari2001

Its incomprehensible but not un-understandable. We can conceive of a being with three persons but with one substance, there is nothing illogical about this, rather the critiques in my opinion don't want to grasp waht the trinity is and thus say it is illogical because they don't want to.

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Philokalia

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#160 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Obviously they don't accept all of the decisions made at Nicaea, since they have the Book of Enoch in their Bible canon.

hartsickdiscipl

Yes they do, they accept all the canons of Nicea. Again Nicea did not determine the biblical canon.

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mindstorm

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#161 mindstorm
Member since 2003 • 15255 Posts

As a longtime Christian and Bible student, I agree that the Catholic Church has very little to do with the teachings of Christ. It has become muddled by sanctimonious rituals and made-up titles. At this point it's a joke. They butchered the Bible at Nicaea in the beginning, and have missed the point ever since.

hartsickdiscipl
Even as a Protestant I disagree with you. I certainly have my issues with the Roman Catholic church but I do not see how this has anything to do with the Council at Nicaea. Besides, the council did not "butcher" the Bible but merely recognized what the masses were already believing regarding the Scriptures.
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LJS9502_basic

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#162 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180197 Posts

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

No news here. Christianity has been so heavily distorted over the years its insane. One of the big reasons why so many people laugh and poke fun at the religion is because of all the nonsense, inconsistency and embarrassing contradictions. When you look at the teachings of Christ on their own, things are fairly straight forward, but when you mix in all the crap that came afterwards you have an embarrassing mess.

I believe in the teachings of Christ, but I take no part in the practice modern "Christianity" at all. Especially not in the Vatican brand.

Wiimotefan

Tell us how and when it was distorted.

:lol:

Bit of a loaded question there dont you think? Lets start simple. The Trinity. A vague, nonsense concept. One that no Christian I've ever met has been able to explain. Usually after a long winded conversation I am left with the typical frustrated response of "I'll pray for you!".

Its a distortion. It makes the religion look silly and hard to accept for the thinking man. And most importantly its not a teaching of Christ. What right do the men that came after Christ have that allows them to amend such a silly belief?

I'm not sure why it's hard to understand TBH. God created a Son that was born of a human and He sends His "Spirit" to help people. One God...three persons.
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#163 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

As a longtime Christian and Bible student, I agree that the Catholic Church has very little to do with the teachings of Christ. It has become muddled by sanctimonious rituals and made-up titles. At this point it's a joke. They butchered the Bible at Nicaea in the beginning, and have missed the point ever since.

mindstorm

Even as a Protestant I disagree with you. I certainly have my issues with the Roman Catholic church but I do not see how this has anything to do with the Council at Nicaea. Besides, the council did not "butcher" the Bible but merely recognized what the masses were already believing regarding the Scriptures.

You honestly believe that decisions were made in the best interests of the masses during that era?

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Philokalia

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#164 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

You honestly believe that decisions were made in the best interests of the masses during that era?

hartsickdiscipl

Do you think the Bishops of Nicea were just puffed up aristocrats?

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#165 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No we don't. We don't follow their interpretation but we don't call them heretics.:|LJS9502_basic
Funny we have a history full of such examples, I wasn't aware you were speaking for ALL the Catholic since the BEGINNING.. The fact of the matter is heresy is basically a fancy word of disagreeing with a person usually leading to violence and/or imprisonment.. It has been that way historically.. No one uses the term heresy any more because the church is not in control any more and we respect the usual liberties of freedom of speech and other such things.. When I mean the Catholics I am talking from a historical perspective when religion was actually a prominent place in power, obviously you don't see things heretical because we don't use that term any more nor do we imprison for it.

No heresy is denying a basic tenet. You confuse disagreement with heresy.

.. Uh the Protestants were branded as heretics.. Or no, don't tell me.. They just killed one another for the hell of it for hundreds of years.. That is exactly what HERESY is, its a disagreement in a tenent that leads to one side calling the others heretic.. When it comes to the scripture those "disagreements" are branded as heresy by the church authorties.. The King of England, Henry the VIII, was branded a heretic when he broke away the church so he could get a divorce because the church would not allow an anulment of his marriage!

Look NO FURTHER than the actual definition of the word: opinionordoctrineatvariancewiththeorthodoxoraccepteddoctrine,especiallyofachurchorreligioussystem. OR anybeliefortheorythatisstronglyatvariancewithestablishedbeliefs,customs,etc.

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#166 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180197 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Funny we have a history full of such examples, I wasn't aware you were speaking for ALL the Catholic since the BEGINNING.. The fact of the matter is heresy is basically a fancy word of disagreeing with a person usually leading to violence and/or imprisonment.. It has been that way historically.. No one uses the term heresy any more because the church is not in control any more and we respect the usual liberties of freedom of speech and other such things.. When I mean the Catholics I am talking from a historical perspective when religion was actually a prominent place in power, obviously you don't see things heretical because we don't use that term any more nor do we imprison for it. sSubZerOo
No heresy is denying a basic tenet. You confuse disagreement with heresy.

.. Uh the Protestants were branded as heretics.. Or no, don't tell me.. They just killed one another for the hell of it for hundreds of years.. That is exactly what HERESY is, its a disagreement in a tenent that leads to one side calling the others heretic.. When it comes to the scripture those "disagreements" are branded as heresy by the church authorties.. The King of England, Henry the VIII, was branded a heretic when he broke away the church so he could get a divorce because the church would not allow an anulment of his marriage!

Actually most of the deaths were political. ;)
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#167 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No heresy is denying a basic tenet. You confuse disagreement with heresy.

.. Uh the Protestants were branded as heretics.. Or no, don't tell me.. They just killed one another for the hell of it for hundreds of years.. That is exactly what HERESY is, its a disagreement in a tenent that leads to one side calling the others heretic.. When it comes to the scripture those "disagreements" are branded as heresy by the church authorties.. The King of England, Henry the VIII, was branded a heretic when he broke away the church so he could get a divorce because the church would not allow an anulment of his marriage!

Actually most of the deaths were political. ;)

They are one of the same, Religion was politics, and politics was religion.. I could care less of WHAT your believe.. But the fact of the matter is back in the day religious life was not a personal thing it was a political and social thing with tight restrictions.. Please look up what heresy means.. I posted in the edit exactly what it means.. And it more or less means a disagreement from a so called authority from common practice or custom..
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ferrari2001

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#168 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] No heresy is denying a basic tenet. You confuse disagreement with heresy.

.. Uh the Protestants were branded as heretics.. Or no, don't tell me.. They just killed one another for the hell of it for hundreds of years.. That is exactly what HERESY is, its a disagreement in a tenent that leads to one side calling the others heretic.. When it comes to the scripture those "disagreements" are branded as heresy by the church authorties.. The King of England, Henry the VIII, was branded a heretic when he broke away the church so he could get a divorce because the church would not allow an anulment of his marriage!

Actually most of the deaths were political. ;)

Most, although not all. Before Vatican II there was still the mindset among Catholics in the Church that protestants were going to hell because they didn't follow the One true faith. This mindset has changed since then, but they would have been considered heretics non-the-less because they rejected the Church..
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Philokalia

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#169 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Funny thing is, it was the Nicenes that were persecuted for what, 200 years after the council?

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#170 deactivated-59d151f079814
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[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] .. Uh the Protestants were branded as heretics.. Or no, don't tell me.. They just killed one another for the hell of it for hundreds of years.. That is exactly what HERESY is, its a disagreement in a tenent that leads to one side calling the others heretic.. When it comes to the scripture those "disagreements" are branded as heresy by the church authorties.. The King of England, Henry the VIII, was branded a heretic when he broke away the church so he could get a divorce because the church would not allow an anulment of his marriage!

Actually most of the deaths were political. ;)

Most, although not all. Before Vatican II there was still the mindset among Catholics in the Church that protestants were going to hell because they didn't follow the One true faith. This mindset has changed since then, but they would have been considered heretics non-the-less because they rejected the Church..

Not to mention that they felt overthrowing or killing the government was the will of god and it was their duty to destroy them.. Just like when Christopher Columbus believed that enslaving the indigeneous population when he landed because he was trying to save their souls, regardless if they lived really short and miserable lives due to it... This isn't suggesting this is what the Christian faith is now, but people need to realize Christianity is alot different from what it once was in multiple areas when it came to belief, ESPECIALLY when we are looking any where from the Middle Ages to the 1500s..
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ferrari2001

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#171 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts
[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually most of the deaths were political. ;)sSubZerOo
Most, although not all. Before Vatican II there was still the mindset among Catholics in the Church that protestants were going to hell because they didn't follow the One true faith. This mindset has changed since then, but they would have been considered heretics non-the-less because they rejected the Church..

Not to mention that they felt overthrowing or killing the government was the will of god and it was their duty to destroy them.. Just like when Christopher Columbus believed that enslaving the indigeneous population when he landed because he was trying to save their souls, regardless if they lived really short and miserable lives due to it... This isn't suggesting this is what the Christian faith is now, but people need to realize Christianity is alot different from what it once was in multiple areas when it came to belief, ESPECIALLY when we are looking any where from the Middle Ages to the 1500s..

Like any organization Christianity has it's up's and down's. It's different yet at the same time it is still fundamentally the same. All people can do is try to make the best of it.
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Philokalia

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#172 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Well protestantism is different from Christianity in the middle ages very much so, but there are consistent streams of Christianity all throughout the patristics. Christianity was not inherently racist despite what some black people want to say, there were Black Bishops and members of the churches, Saint Moses was one of them. There were arabic people, there were Greek people, there are even now since the religion has expanded Asian people in Christianity. So yeah, Christianity has adapted to the times, but it is not fundamentally different how it was hundreds of years ago. That is I would say in Orthodoxy and slightly less in Catholicism (sorry catholics).

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#173 deactivated-59d151f079814
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[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"] Most, although not all. Before Vatican II there was still the mindset among Catholics in the Church that protestants were going to hell because they didn't follow the One true faith. This mindset has changed since then, but they would have been considered heretics non-the-less because they rejected the Church..

Not to mention that they felt overthrowing or killing the government was the will of god and it was their duty to destroy them.. Just like when Christopher Columbus believed that enslaving the indigeneous population when he landed because he was trying to save their souls, regardless if they lived really short and miserable lives due to it... This isn't suggesting this is what the Christian faith is now, but people need to realize Christianity is alot different from what it once was in multiple areas when it came to belief, ESPECIALLY when we are looking any where from the Middle Ages to the 1500s..

Like any organization Christianity has it's up's and down's. It's different yet at the same time it is still fundamentally the same. All people can do is try to make the best of it.

Christianity is a idea that can radically change, its neutral it depends much on the soceity and time period.. Christians today would be deemed as heretics if they were to be judged by Christians from the 1100s..
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Philokalia

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#174 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Christianity is a idea that can radically change, its neutral it depends much on the soceity and time period.. Christians today would be deemed as heretics if they were to be judged by Christians from the 1100s.. sSubZerOo

Protestants would be judged as heretics. YEs.

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ferrari2001

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#175 ferrari2001
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[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Not to mention that they felt overthrowing or killing the government was the will of god and it was their duty to destroy them.. Just like when Christopher Columbus believed that enslaving the indigeneous population when he landed because he was trying to save their souls, regardless if they lived really short and miserable lives due to it... This isn't suggesting this is what the Christian faith is now, but people need to realize Christianity is alot different from what it once was in multiple areas when it came to belief, ESPECIALLY when we are looking any where from the Middle Ages to the 1500s.. sSubZerOo
Like any organization Christianity has it's up's and down's. It's different yet at the same time it is still fundamentally the same. All people can do is try to make the best of it.

Christianity is a idea that can radically change, its neutral it depends much on the soceity and time period.. Christians today would be deemed as heretics if they were to be judged by Christians from the 1100s..

I wouldn't say all Christians would be deemed as heretics. Remember most theologians still use sources from medieval philosophers as the basis for their religious thought. St. Thomas Aquinas is the unofficial theologian of the Church and you can't study for 5 min without running into something he taught almost 1000 years ago. Hell, even Augustine is widely used in the Christian community and he lived in the 300's.
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#176 deactivated-59d151f079814
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[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Christianity is a idea that can radically change, its neutral it depends much on the soceity and time period.. Christians today would be deemed as heretics if they were to be judged by Christians from the 1100s.. Philokalia

Protestants would be judged as heretics. YEs.

Even Catholics of today would be judged as heretics in many ways.. People seem not to understand that there are many differences between the common practices of Christianity of today compared to then.... Working on Sunday, something alot of Christians do now, was a huge offense back then that could lead to inprisonment for instance.. Hell during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church actually did not really take any stand on monogamy, thats right they didn't care if a man had random flings even when married.. Charlamagne, was a huge example of this..
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#177 deactivated-59d151f079814
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[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"] Like any organization Christianity has it's up's and down's. It's different yet at the same time it is still fundamentally the same. All people can do is try to make the best of it. ferrari2001
Christianity is a idea that can radically change, its neutral it depends much on the soceity and time period.. Christians today would be deemed as heretics if they were to be judged by Christians from the 1100s..

I wouldn't say all Christians would be deemed as heretics. Remember most theologians still use sources from medieval philosophers as the basis for their religious thought. St. Thomas Aquinas is the unofficial theologian of the Church and you can't study for 5 min without running into something he taught almost 1000 years ago. Hell, even Augustine is widely used in the Christian community and he lived in the 300's.

If you accept divorce your a heretic.. If we look at the Middle Ages, charging interest on loans was seen as capital sin under Christian culture.. Going against the word of clergy was a huge offense.. The mere fact we live in a secular society with a bill of rights pretty much illustrates how different of a culture and society we are compared to one of feudalism.. Working on a Sunday was seen as a huge sin... There is ALOT people take for granted if we were to plop your ass down in a feudal society within Europe at that time period..

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#178 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts
[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Christianity is a idea that can radically change, its neutral it depends much on the soceity and time period.. Christians today would be deemed as heretics if they were to be judged by Christians from the 1100s.. sSubZerOo

Protestants would be judged as heretics. YEs.

Even Catholics of today would be judged as heretics in many ways.. People seem not to understand that there are many differences between the common practices of Christianity of today compared to then.... Working on Sunday, something alot of Christians do now, was a huge offense back then that could lead to inprisonment for instance.. Hell during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church actually did not really take any stand on monogamy, thats right they didn't care if a man had random flings even when married.. Charlamagne, was a huge example of this..

I wouldn't say they didn't take a stand on monogamy. However, the Bishops of the time turned a blind eye to that sort of behavior. Although many of those we call saints from that time period did not turn a blind eye and fought against the lax attitudes of many in the Church. Pretty much everything we teach they also taught, although the attitudes of the individual members change and we and they act differently because of it.
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#179 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Christianity is a idea that can radically change, its neutral it depends much on the soceity and time period.. Christians today would be deemed as heretics if they were to be judged by Christians from the 1100s.. sSubZerOo

I wouldn't say all Christians would be deemed as heretics. Remember most theologians still use sources from medieval philosophers as the basis for their religious thought. St. Thomas Aquinas is the unofficial theologian of the Church and you can't study for 5 min without running into something he taught almost 1000 years ago. Hell, even Augustine is widely used in the Christian community and he lived in the 300's.

If you accept divorce your a heretic.. If we look at the Middle Ages, charging interest on loans was seen as capital sin under Christian culture.. Going against the word of clergy was a huge offense.. The mere fact we live in a secular society with a bill of rights pretty much illustrates how different of a culture and society we are compared to one of feudalism.. Working on a Sunday was seen as a huge sin... There is ALOT people take for granted if we were to plop your ass down in a feudal society within Europe at that time period..

Well the Church still sees divorce as bad, going against clergy isn't a huge offense but they are still seen as our spiritual leaders and to reject them is to reject the teaching authority of the church. The Church always fights against secular society and you are still not suppose to work on Sundays. A lot of what we teach is the same, however we live in a world where not everyone is Catholic like in the middle ages so the culture as a whole acts differently despite what Christian teachings may be.
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#180 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Philokalia"]

Protestants would be judged as heretics. YEs.

ferrari2001

Even Catholics of today would be judged as heretics in many ways.. People seem not to understand that there are many differences between the common practices of Christianity of today compared to then.... Working on Sunday, something alot of Christians do now, was a huge offense back then that could lead to inprisonment for instance.. Hell during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church actually did not really take any stand on monogamy, thats right they didn't care if a man had random flings even when married.. Charlamagne, was a huge example of this..

I wouldn't say they didn't take a stand on monogamy. However, the Bishops of the time turned a blind eye to that sort of behavior. Although many of those we call saints from that time period did not turn a blind eye and fought against the lax attitudes of many in the Church. Pretty much everything we teach they also taught, although the attitudes of the individual members change and we and they act differently because of it.

You so certain about that? IF we look at the MIddle Ages to the high middle ages, Christians for instance supported the brutal acts towards a pagans and Muslims.. Charlamagne was crowned the Emperor by the Pope him self during the time, this was right after his campaign across Europe in which he forced people to either convert or die.. He killed tens of thousands, and he was endorsed by the church.. Yet again I stand by my claim, heresy is a matter of who you ask.. And this wasn't just by individual members, this was endorsed the clergy and supported..

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#181 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Even Catholics of today would be judged as heretics in many ways.. People seem not to understand that there are many differences between the common practices of Christianity of today compared to then.... Working on Sunday, something alot of Christians do now, was a huge offense back then that could lead to inprisonment for instance.. Hell during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church actually did not really take any stand on monogamy, thats right they didn't care if a man had random flings even when married.. Charlamagne, was a huge example of this.. sSubZerOo

Theologumnia has always existed within Christainity, there is such a thing as economy. what I am talking about are the major doctrines and major practices which I eblieve in orthodoxy have been unchanged.

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#182 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] I wouldn't say all Christians would be deemed as heretics. Remember most theologians still use sources from medieval philosophers as the basis for their religious thought. St. Thomas Aquinas is the unofficial theologian of the Church and you can't study for 5 min without running into something he taught almost 1000 years ago. Hell, even Augustine is widely used in the Christian community and he lived in the 300's. ferrari2001

If you accept divorce your a heretic.. If we look at the Middle Ages, charging interest on loans was seen as capital sin under Christian culture.. Going against the word of clergy was a huge offense.. The mere fact we live in a secular society with a bill of rights pretty much illustrates how different of a culture and society we are compared to one of feudalism.. Working on a Sunday was seen as a huge sin... There is ALOT people take for granted if we were to plop your ass down in a feudal society within Europe at that time period..

Well the Church still sees divorce as bad, going against clergy isn't a huge offense but they are still seen as our spiritual leaders and to reject them is to reject the teaching authority of the church. The Church always fights against secular society and you are still not suppose to work on Sundays. A lot of what we teach is the same, however we live in a world where not everyone is Catholic like in the middle ages so the culture as a whole acts differently despite what Christian teachings may be.

Ending this practices had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact of other religions.. They had to do with the society developing and changing from old practices.. Charging interest was a huge sin by the Church, until mercantalism came.. Then it was convient to pretty much write it off.. And I am sorry but there is a difference between seeing divorce as "bad", and absolutely forbidding it back in the day in which men killed their wives so they could remarry.. You attempt to dismiss the acts that we see as barbaric now as the selfish goals of those back then or individual actions.. When if anything the Christians in the past were zealots compared to today, and what they did they absolutely believed in...

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#183 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

It should be noted that while violent and absolutely aggressive assaults against Pagans and muslims by Christians is not something holy or good that these groups were and are not completely innocent. the Pagans had persecuted Chrsitainity for near five hundred years and that is what resulted in it being banned in the empire by Theodosius because the pagans we might consider them the Islamacists of their day whenever they Got power (julien the apostate) treated Christians with utter resent. Muslims too pushed aggressive campaigns into Christian lands, going eventually into spain, finally stopped and pushed back by Charles Martel and those following him. It should not said Christians have ever been perfect, no they haven't and anyone who says it would be in error. BUt that cannot dismiss the fundamental attitudes of Christianity which are exemplified in those whom we call Saints and especially in Christ our Lord.

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#184 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Even Catholics of today would be judged as heretics in many ways.. People seem not to understand that there are many differences between the common practices of Christianity of today compared to then.... Working on Sunday, something alot of Christians do now, was a huge offense back then that could lead to inprisonment for instance.. Hell during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church actually did not really take any stand on monogamy, thats right they didn't care if a man had random flings even when married.. Charlamagne, was a huge example of this.. sSubZerOo

I wouldn't say they didn't take a stand on monogamy. However, the Bishops of the time turned a blind eye to that sort of behavior. Although many of those we call saints from that time period did not turn a blind eye and fought against the lax attitudes of many in the Church. Pretty much everything we teach they also taught, although the attitudes of the individual members change and we and they act differently because of it.

You so certain about that? IF we look at the MIddle Ages to the high middle ages, Christians for instance supported the brutal acts towards a pagans and Muslims.. Charlamagne was crowned the Emperor by the Pope him self during the time, this was right after his campaign across Europe in which he forced people to either convert or die.. He killed tens of thousands, and he was endorsed by the church.. Yet again I stand by my claim, heresy is a matter of who you ask.. And this wasn't just by individual members, this was endorsed the clergy and supported..

I'm not rejecting that the church hierarchy did many of these things. I was looking solely on the official Church doctrine (teachings). While for a time those in leadership positions supported these acts, they never created a teaching that said these acts were ok. If you read about the Saints, there exists during periods like this in the Church many individuals who would rise up and fight against those in power, call them out on their actions. The leaders were talking the talk but not walking the walk so to speak. And it's no secret that there existed many members of the Church that taught and supported heresy, throughout the Church's history. However, they were never able to change or alter doctrine.
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#185 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] Even Catholics of today would be judged as heretics in many ways.. People seem not to understand that there are many differences between the common practices of Christianity of today compared to then.... Working on Sunday, something alot of Christians do now, was a huge offense back then that could lead to inprisonment for instance.. Hell during the Middle Ages the Catholic Church actually did not really take any stand on monogamy, thats right they didn't care if a man had random flings even when married.. Charlamagne, was a huge example of this.. Philokalia

Theologumnia has always existed within Christainity, there is such a thing as economy. what I am talking about are the major doctrines and major practices which I eblieve in orthodoxy have been unchanged.

You mean major practices like thou shall not kill? Because the Catholic Church fully supported numerous killings because they believed they were doing the work of god.. Much of the enslavement and wiping out of the Native Population within North America after it's discovery was done because of people who believed they were doing the work of god.. You really can't get any more different between condoning murder and slavery supported back than through religious belief, compared to Christianity today by most in seein gthose things as absolutely WRONG..
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#186 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] I wouldn't say they didn't take a stand on monogamy. However, the Bishops of the time turned a blind eye to that sort of behavior. Although many of those we call saints from that time period did not turn a blind eye and fought against the lax attitudes of many in the Church. Pretty much everything we teach they also taught, although the attitudes of the individual members change and we and they act differently because of it. ferrari2001

You so certain about that? IF we look at the MIddle Ages to the high middle ages, Christians for instance supported the brutal acts towards a pagans and Muslims.. Charlamagne was crowned the Emperor by the Pope him self during the time, this was right after his campaign across Europe in which he forced people to either convert or die.. He killed tens of thousands, and he was endorsed by the church.. Yet again I stand by my claim, heresy is a matter of who you ask.. And this wasn't just by individual members, this was endorsed the clergy and supported..

I'm not rejecting that the church hierarchy did many of these things. I was looking solely on the official Church doctrine (teachings). While for a time those in leadership positions supported these acts, they never created a teaching that said these acts were ok. If you read about the Saints, there exists during periods like this in the Church many individuals who would rise up and fight against those in power, call them out on their actions. The leaders were talking the talk but not walking the walk so to speak. And it's no secret that there existed many members of the Church that taught and supported heresy, throughout the Church's history. However, they were never able to change or alter doctrine.

"Official Church Doctrine".... Read what you just wrote.. What makes it official? DING DING DING, thats the right the CHURCH power.. Because some one of POWER decided its that what its meant.. You seem to think YOUR interpretation is in fact the absolutely when I am pointing out if we were to look at Christians back in the past they would see as heretic.. And I am sorry but what? Doctrine was altered all the time through reinterpretation.... Thats the great thing about bible, and really any holy works.. They are incredibly vague.. And I am sorry but what? You do realize that some of these saints like Joan of Ark was a warrior that killed many right?

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#187 StealthMonkey4
Member since 2009 • 7434 Posts

So, are we going to get this discussion started?

BluRayHiDef

Lol, you must've been so disappointed to come up with the ultimate religious troll thread and then get no responses for 15 minutes.

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#188 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

You mean major practices like thou shall not kill? Because the Catholic Church fully supported numerous killings because they believed they were doing the work of god.. Much of the enslavement and wiping out of the Native Population within North America after it's discovery was done because of people who believed they were doing the work of god.. You really can't get any more different between condoning murder and slavery supported back than through religious belief, compared to Christianity today by most in seein gthose things as absolutely WRONG.. sSubZerOo

Thou shalt not murder has been the teaching of the church. The church has never been opposed to killing or that is warfare. I think this was best explained by Augustine with his just war theory. Indeed I think the defenders of Constantinople were completely justified in killing as many of the enemy they encountered in the seige of Constantinople. But on the ohter hand the Patriarch of Constantinople was never justified in viciously peresecuting and killing and torturing Saint Maximos the confessor. So there is that distinction. Again you want to catagorise every action by the Christian as a result of their Christianity, when thats not neccessarily the case. Chrsitians have their examples of men and women who did the right thing, but sinned as well mind you, but lived a life of exemplary Moral character. Maximos the confessor, Ignatius of Antioch and many more who were martyred and did not lift a finger agianst others. But I could also point out in responce to the slavery accusation that the abolitionists were for the most part Christian. Thus we have a conundrum, who did the right thing in Christianity? I think its obvious.

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#189 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

It should be noted that while violent and absolutely aggressive assaults against Pagans and muslims by Christians is not something holy or good that these groups were and are not completely innocent. the Pagans had persecuted Chrsitainity for near five hundred years and that is what resulted in it being banned in the empire by Theodosius because the pagans we might consider them the Islamacists of their day whenever they Got power (julien the apostate) treated Christians with utter resent. Muslims too pushed aggressive campaigns into Christian lands, going eventually into spain, finally stopped and pushed back by Charles Martel and those following him. It should not said Christians have ever been perfect, no they haven't and anyone who says it would be in error. BUt that cannot dismiss the fundamental attitudes of Christianity which are exemplified in those whom we call Saints and especially in Christ our Lord.

Philokalia

You mean Saints like Joan of Ark which was canonized after a military campaign? And what does talking about Muslims or Pagans have anything to do with my point? My point is that Christainity was a completely different creature in most areas back then, compared to NOW.. Which is entirely my point, that heresy is based around the idea of who you ASK now.. My point is there is no set in stone doctrine of Christanity as a culture idea, it has changed multitude of ways especially when we look at sects.. You guys seem ot think I am treating it as a absolute, when I am not.. Its a neutral idea that has changed as time has gone on and adapted with the society and age.. Christainty of today is much different than the Christianity 1000 years ago..

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#190 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Subzero, can you give any major reinterpretation of scripture via the same churches? That is I know something about Christian history, like the differences between the WEstern Catholics and The Eastern Orthodox Catholics which resulted in the schism on the position of the pope. Certaintly those existed, but underlying that divergance and difference there existed the same framework, the same basic ecclesiology and reliance of tradition which doesn't mean to me that there is this utter failure between generations to communicate what Christainity should be.

No that happened during the reformation and that single principle of Martin Luther, Sola Scriptura which opened scripture up to the conscionce, devoid of any tradition or logical or historical approach to and thus why we see in Christianity today major divisions, though the ancient churches still exist and peacefully mind you they exist together, though not in communion. So It is flawed to say Christiantiy of say Ignatius of Antioch is completely and fundamentally different from the Christianity of the Orthodox or even the Catholic and on a smaller level the Protestant of today. True I believe the protestants have done away with what was traditional Christianity ecclesiology and reading of scripture but even then they have their Christian name via their doctrines of the trinity, of the ressurection and the like.

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#191 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"] You mean major practices like thou shall not kill? Because the Catholic Church fully supported numerous killings because they believed they were doing the work of god.. Much of the enslavement and wiping out of the Native Population within North America after it's discovery was done because of people who believed they were doing the work of god.. You really can't get any more different between condoning murder and slavery supported back than through religious belief, compared to Christianity today by most in seein gthose things as absolutely WRONG.. Philokalia

Thou shalt not murder has been the teaching of the church. The church has never been opposed to killing or that is warfare. I think this was best explained by Augustine with his just war theory. Indeed I think the defenders of Constantinople were completely justified in killing as many of the enemy they encountered in the seige of Constantinople. But on the ohter hand the Patriarch of Constantinople was never justified in viciously peresecuting and killing and torturing Saint Maximos the confessor. So there is that distinction. Again you want to catagorise every action by the Christian as a result of their Christianity, when thats not neccessarily the case. Chrsitians have their examples of men and women who did the right thing, but sinned as well mind you, but lived a life of exemplary Moral character. Maximos the confessor, Ignatius of Antioch and many more who were martyred and did not lift a finger agianst others. But I could also point out in responce to the slavery accusation that the abolitionists were for the most part Christian. Thus we have a conundrum, who did the right thing in Christianity? I think its obvious.

AND I am trying to tell you there is NO RIGHT thing in Christianity.. Its a matter of BELIEF, it is neutral.. Unfortunately we can't cross reference and question the guy that spawned the religion that existed for over 2000 years.. And coming from a neutral person that is not Christian, I find it pretty arrogant to suggest that your vision of what Christianity is, is the correct one.. Its a matter of "belief".. Say it three times.. And if I were to ask a Christian during that time they would call YOU THE HERETIC.. What makes you some how more correct when they are using the exact same teachings from the bible to reach their own interpretation.. I think its obvious, NO ONE knows.

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#192 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

AND I am trying to tell you there is NO RIGHT thing in Christianity.. Its a matter of BELIEF, it is neutral.. Unfortunately we can't cross reference and question the guy that spawned the religion that existed for over 2000 years.. And coming from a neutral person that is not Christian, I find it pretty arrogant to suggest that your vision of what Christianity is, is the correct one.. Its a matter of "belief".. Say it three times.. And if I were to ask a Christian during that time they would call YOU THE HERETIC.. What makes you some how more correct when they are using the exact same teachings from the bible to reach their own interpretation.. I think its obvious, NO ONE knows.

sSubZerOo

And I'm telling you I dissagree with ath assessment, otherwise I wouldn't be orthodox. We can discuss what is the right Christianity till we are blue in the face. But you ask me if I think those before me would say I am a heretic, or some sort of disbeliever and as I look to the words of Ignatius when he says obey the Bishop, that Christ is God that we should die for Christ I can't think he would call me such a thing along with the fathers. I could imagine those most holy saints however telling me I need to reign in my sin and dedicate myself more towards God than anything else.

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#193 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

Subzero, can you give any major reinterpretation of scripture via the same churches? That is I know something about Christian history, like the differences between the WEstern Catholics and The Eastern Orthodox Catholics which resulted in the schism on the position of the pope. Certaintly those existed, but underlying that divergance and difference there existed the same framework, the same basic ecclesiology and reliance of tradition which doesn't mean to me that there is this utter failure between generations to communicate what Christainity should be.

No that happened during the reformation and that single principle of Martin Luther, Sola Scriptura which opened scripture up to the conscionce, devoid of any tradition or logical or historical approach to and thus why we see in Christianity today major divisions, though the ancient churches still exist and peacefully mind you they exist together, though not in communion. So It is flawed to say Christiantiy of say Ignatius of Antioch is completely and fundamentally different from the Christianity of the Orthodox or even the Catholic and on a smaller level the Protestant of today. True I believe the protestants have done away with what was traditional Christianity ecclesiology and reading of scripture but even then they have their Christian name via their doctrines of the trinity, of the ressurection and the like.

Philokalia

Its hilarious that you can't even see the your contradiction.. I am argueing that Christaintiy has no set belief in the majority of its areas outside of the basics such as accepting the divinity of Jesus because if we ask one Christian at one time period to the next, they may come up with numerous different answers.. Take violence for instance, violence of today in Christianity is seen as a sin especially murder.. Back then lets saying during the Crusades, killing Pagans or Muslims was not considered a Sin.. The Church see it as such.. The monarchies didn't see it such.. Same goes with much of the treatment of the Native American population when they first landed.. What I am trying to tell you is YOU have YOUR explaination and they have theirs.. And if we were sit down in the same room with the same book they would disagree with you and call you heretic based upon the same BOOK because of THEIR interpretation during the times.. This includes, because Saints were as much the people of the times as they were.. And seeing as we can't ask god, who is right, this is a belief.. There is no correct answers when we look at the meta physical of things..

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#194 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

AND I am trying to tell you there is NO RIGHT thing in Christianity.. Its a matter of BELIEF, it is neutral.. Unfortunately we can't cross reference and question the guy that spawned the religion that existed for over 2000 years.. And coming from a neutral person that is not Christian, I find it pretty arrogant to suggest that your vision of what Christianity is, is the correct one.. Its a matter of "belief".. Say it three times.. And if I were to ask a Christian during that time they would call YOU THE HERETIC.. What makes you some how more correct when they are using the exact same teachings from the bible to reach their own interpretation.. I think its obvious, NO ONE knows.

Philokalia

And I'm telling you I dissagree with ath assessment, otherwise I wouldn't be orthodox. We can discuss what is the right Christianity till we are blue in the face. But you ask me if I think those before me would say I am a heretic, or some sort of disbeliever and as I look to the words of Ignatius when he says obey the Bishop, that Christ is God that we should die for Christ I can't think he would call me such a thing along with the fathers. I could imagine those most holy saints however telling me I need to reign in my sin and dedicate myself more towards God than anything else.

WHICH IS EXACTLY my point, thats what YOU believe in.. Which is my entire arguement, that you guys are trying to suggest that Christianity was always this way with absolutes.. It wasn't, if we look this from society and age, Christianity changed in numerous ways.. IN how it was practiced, in how it was enforced and how it was understood.. Espeically when we are looking to past cultures which were not less religious they were MORE religious.. We would consider zealots today, yet if we asked these people their interpetation woudl be very different from yours.. And coming from a neutral view point I see no reason why I should believe YOUR intereptation is some how better or more correct than the others.. Because as I have said, we can't ask Jesus.

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#195 Philokalia
Member since 2012 • 2910 Posts

Sub you show a lack of understanding when it comes to the development of Christianity. Christianity is not monolithic, but it is not subject bound to the whims of the people of the day. No thats not the case. Again you can only come up with the treatment of certain Chrsitains against certain other groups and act as if they are all the same, as if they are both totally legitimate within the Christian context. That the slave owners in america and treatement of the natives was proper, despite the abolitionists against slavery and even the great patristic reference against slavery. There is that inherent idea within Chrsitaintiy that man is created in the image and likeness of God, thus he has fundamental dignity man, and she does as well woman. So when we place another under our subjection what does that tell us about ourselves if we believe that God has made every man? Some Justified it by saying that Black people werent really people but the witness of those Christians in ethiopia and St Moses the black clearly goes against such an understanding. you are right to say that Christians have done bad things, but you are wrong to say that they were directly a result of Christianity and not directly a result of humanity, the leftovers of that old pagan culture. I don't think the west or the east has ever had a perfect Christian society, not one of them, not even Constantinople where my Patriarch resides and rules over the church. But we do not in Christianity reject Peter because of Judas, rather we accept the truth and leave the evil.

Now fundametnally I will say this about Christianity, the reformation has wounded what was Christianity. Thus when i say the protestants are Christian, I fully mean it, but I cannot say they have a perfect faith, only but a partial faith. This would go well against an argument trying to refute protestantism. That is how fundamentally different they are from those before them. The fathers and the saints before them did not believe in their doctrines, SOla scriptura, Sola Fide, sola this and that, they did not. They had ecclesiology, they had Christology, they had Tradition and they had scripture. All of which the four most ancient churches to this day still accept. You would find scarcely a difference between the churches of Alexandria (coptic that is) and the Church of greece (Orthodox Catholic that is) except in only one regard and even today that regard may be closed within my life time God willing.

So if you want to argue what Christianity is, and if you want to say I don't have true Christianity simply because Others dissagree with me, you better suppose a true Christianity, because I have my reasons for accepting Orthodoxy over all of these other innovations and the like. But I don't think you have a comprehensive reason to dismiss orthodoxy, only vague irregulaties between the non communicant churches.

And I will just comment on some of those attrocities. Do you realise that it was the Orthodox in the fourth crusade whom were butchered by the latins? Icons stolen and relics desacrated? The Patriarch being replaced with a Latin Patriarch? Yet I still regaurd the crusades as necessary and I cannot find it in me to condemn the motivation for the crusades. To Protect Christians coming to the Holyland and to reclaim what was once Christian Land. Again The crusaders made evil, such as the fourth crusade, but we and even the Latin Catholics today recognise those evils together and the Pope has reutnred those icons and relics. So your missing the larger picture, insisting on little incidents within the widerscope.

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#196 Vaultboy-101
Member since 2009 • 1778 Posts

Who cares? The bible is treachorous, moronic garbage anyway.

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#197 mattisgod01
Member since 2005 • 3476 Posts

You seem to be confusing the Catholic Church with Catholicism and the Teachings of Jesus. The Catholic Church is a power hungry criminal institution that puts it's own Power, Wealth, Secrecy, Influence and survival above all else. They quote the Bible and play the part so long as it achieves the prior goals. Why anyone who truly believes and follows the teachings of Jesus would pay them any attention is beyond me.

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#198 WilliamRLBaker
Member since 2006 • 28915 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="BluRayHiDef"]

You reasoning is faulty. They don't release the identity of the translators because they want the translation to stand on its own meritis. Why is the identity of the translators even relevant when you can examine the translation for yourself? It's a literal translation and isn't stylized like others. I also love the fact that you spout pure conjecture as means of dismissing the translation ("All it seems to be is a culmination of English translations with some bad Greek translations on the side in order to put forth their biased views."). How do you know it's a bad Greek translation on the side? All one needs to do is learn how to at least read the Greek text on the right phonetically and then look up the meanings of the Greek words themselves to see if they're mistranslated or not. C'mon, man. The fact is that you're biased toward JWs and won't even consider assessing them or their publications objectively.

BluRayHiDef

You do know Jehovah's Witnesses have deviated from Christianity and thus changed some Scripture....right? Or is your only experience with the NT through this one religion which isn't considered Christian by the way.....which should tell you how far off they are.

Your problem is that your biased. You can't look at anything objectively. In your mind, true Christianity is the form followed by the majority of Christians (and, more specifically Catholicism?). However, if you would put that belief aside for one second and objectively assess what and why the JWs teach what they teach, you'd have a better understanding. Also, you have no proof that they changed any scripture. They use the same Hewbrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts as the basis for their translation as other translation committees use. Hence, if there are any major differences between their translation and others, it may not necessarily be because they're wrong, but perhaps the others are wrong. That's what you can't understand. In your mind, JW automaticaly = wrong. There is no reasoning that comes into play when you think of JWs. Now, begone.

*counts* 13 poists before he finally replied to a person he said he'd never reply to again. Its frankly a record right there.
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mattisgod01

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#200 mattisgod01
Member since 2005 • 3476 Posts

Sub you show a lack of understanding when it comes to the development of Christianity. Christianity is not monolithic, but it is not subject bound to the whims of the people of the day. No thats not the case. Again you can only come up with the treatment of certain Chrsitains against certain other groups and act as if they are all the same, as if they are both totally legitimate within the Christian context. That the slave owners in america and treatement of the natives was proper, despite the abolitionists against slavery and even the great patristic reference against slavery. There is that inherent idea within Chrsitaintiy that man is created in the image and likeness of God, thus he has fundamental dignity man, and she does as well woman. So when we place another under our subjection what does that tell us about ourselves if we believe that God has made every man? Some Justified it by saying that Black people werent really people but the witness of those Christians in ethiopia and St Moses the black clearly goes against such an understanding. you are right to say that Christians have done bad things, but you are wrong to say that they were directly a result of Christianity and not directly a result of humanity, the leftovers of that old pagan culture. I don't think the west or the east has ever had a perfect Christian society, not one of them, not even Constantinople where my Patriarch resides and rules over the church. But we do not in Christianity reject Peter because of Judas, rather we accept the truth and leave the evil.

Now fundametnally I will say this about Christianity, the reformation has wounded what was Christianity. Thus when i say the protestants are Christian, I fully mean it, but I cannot say they have a perfect faith, only but a partial faith. This would go well against an argument trying to refute protestantism. That is how fundamentally different they are from those before them. The fathers and the saints before them did not believe in their doctrines, SOla scriptura, Sola Fide, sola this and that, they did not. They had ecclesiology, they had Christology, they had Tradition and they had scripture. All of which the four most ancient churches to this day still accept. You would find scarcely a difference between the churches of Alexandria (coptic that is) and the Church of greece (Orthodox Catholic that is) except in only one regard and even today that regard may be closed within my life time God willing.

So if you want to argue what Christianity is, and if you want to say I don't have true Christianity simply because Others dissagree with me, you better suppose a true Christianity, because I have my reasons for accepting Orthodoxy over all of these other innovations and the like. But I don't think you have a comprehensive reason to dismiss orthodoxy, only vague irregulaties between the non communicant churches.

And I will just comment on some of those attrocities. Do you realise that it was the Orthodox in the fourth crusade whom were butchered by the latins? Icons stolen and relics desacrated? The Patriarch being replaced with a Latin Patriarch? Yet I still regaurd the crusades as necessary and I cannot find it in me to condemn the motivation for the crusades. To Protect Christians coming to the Holyland and to reclaim what was once Christian Land. Again The crusaders made evil, such as the fourth crusade, but we and even the Latin Catholics today recognise those evils together and the Pope has reutnred those icons and relics. So your missing the larger picture, insisting on little incidents within the widerscope.

Philokalia

As for slavery, The concept and practice existed long before the Bible and within many cultures around the world, However, While one cannot place the blame for slavery on Christianity one could easyily argue the case that it was greatly responsible for the practice lingering as long as it did. Slavery Existed during the time of Jesus, Yet he makes not attempt to put an end to the practice, The Bible even goes as far as to reinforce it. How could Jesus be so tolerant to such a practice, The trading, Selling and owning of other human beings?

As for the Crusades, They had as much morallity underlining them as Game of Thrones. It had very little to do with keeping Christian pilgrims safe, They were always free to come and go from Jerusalem under Muslim control, In fact very little of the internal religious based politics in Jerusalem changed during the transition between Muslim to Christian rulers. The site was so sacred to all the Monotheist faiths that in order to keep long term peace they rarely restricted people from comming and going as they pleased and where tasked with protecting all. The first crusaders who breached the walls of Jerusalem in 1099 didn't seem too concerned between the distinction between Saracen, Christian and Jew, They slaughter all. They were more concerned about looting, Raping and pillaging everything of value. That included vast desecration of sacred structure and artifacts of all 3 faiths. Not sure what their logic was, They were promised absolutism so maybe they figured God would forgive all.