The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
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I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening,The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
Laihendi
I completely agree! But many people still feel that they have certain entitlements that allow them to limit the freedom of others, simply because that's what they grew up in. When one takes these entitlements away, then they feel violated in their freedom. Which seems ironic as their freedom used to extent to restricting the freedom of others.The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
Laihendi
Well the LGBT movement is covered by that as well. If people can't accept gays what makes you think they'd accept that?
Sometimes it's easier to do things step by step.
Well the LGBT movement is covered by that as well. If people can't accept gays what makes you think they'd accept that?
Sometimes it's easier to do things step by step.
toast_burner
The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others.
Laihendi
yes, and in most cases we can. It's only when people oppose you that you actually need a to form movement. The LGBT movement is one of those cases where they actually have to fight for their rights.
"The real problem" is correct, it's such a elegant and simple concept that people found it hard to accept for thousands of years, and possibly for hundreds of years to come.
[QUOTE="Laihendi"]I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening, Freedom to what you want as long as it doesn't violate the freedom of others ? Than you must not be a fan regulation or making it illegal to use the gold standard.The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
l4dak47
[QUOTE="Laihendi"]I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening,The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
l4dak47
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
Even though the United States of America likes to claim they are the basin of freedom they aren't, more like a cesspool of freedom.
I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening,[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="Laihendi"]
The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
dercoo
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
Thought the left just want to impose stronger gun regulations. So really unless you're mentally unstable you can keep your guns champ.
I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening,[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="Laihendi"]
The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
dercoo
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
Not all leftists oppose firearm ownership.I totally agree, as long as people are free to disagree with gay marriage (but not ban it). I think a civil marriage would be fine as long as people (or religious groups) are free to hold to a traditional view of marriage if they so desire (i.e. they probably would look at the civil marriage as basically being a civil union and in their eyes the couple would not be married and they would not be forced to treat the couple as married). More freedom is never a bad thing.
Edit: That, and hate-crime and hate-speech laws have no place in a free and intellectually honest society. That is the thing that bugs me most about more extreme and militant LBGT rights activists, but then again, agitating for such laws is not uncommon in most civil 'rights' movements these days.
[QUOTE="dercoo"]
[QUOTE="l4dak47"] I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening, Communist_Soul
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
Thought the left just want to impose stronger gun regulations. So really unless you're mentally unstable you can keep your guns champ.
The left supports idiotic legistion like the Clinton gun ban, that quite literally banned guns that looked scary
amongst putting a 10 round cap on all mags
Which makes as much sense as putting a built in 80MPH limit on all cars and banning racing models to prevent speeding related crashes.
[QUOTE="dercoo"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening, ghoklebutter
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
Not all leftists oppose firearm ownership.In the same way not all rightist oppose same sex marriage.
Yes they exist, but thy are a minority.
[QUOTE="Laihendi"]I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening, How about those on the left who want government-enforced collectivism by "redistributing" (stealing) capital? Freedom and economic equality are not compatible.The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
l4dak47
That problem you speak of is the reason we have the LGBT movement in the first place. ghoklebutterI'll clarify my position. I think civil rights activists focusing on specific rights for specific groups of people should instead be advocating universal freedom for everyone. What many do not seem to realize is that every social injustice is the result of a lack of freedom. In a free society there would be no oppressive laws against anyone, and concepts such as "LGBT rights" and "women's rights" would not even be relevant. Many people like to make a fuss about oppressive laws targeted at the LGBT community, but then somehow don't care about the fact that almost every human on Earth is the target of oppressive laws by oppressive governments (US included).
I definitely agree with that, though I do think LGBT rights is a good current cause to fight for. Seeing how totalitarian and controlling people on both sides of the political spectrum are these days, baby steps is really all we can hope for.The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
Laihendi
Except that theory is flawed doing what you want at all times will invariably harm another person there is no way to do any thing you want without harming another.WilliamRLBakerNo, you can do anything you wish unless it infringes on the rights of others. Good example: get rid of all "victimless crimes".
I'll clarify my position. I think civil rights activists focusing on specific rights for specific groups of people should instead be advocating universal freedom for everyone. What many do not seem to realize is that every social injustice is the result of a lack of freedom. In a free society there would be no oppressive laws against anyone, and concepts such as "LGBT rights" and "women's rights" would not even be relevant. Many people like to make a fuss about oppressive laws targeted at the LGBT community, but then somehow don't care about the fact that almost every human on Earth is the target of oppressive laws by oppressive governments (US included).
Laihendi
You can't ignore the roots of particular types of discrimination. The fact that racism, sexism, homophobia, and just about every other distinct kind of prejudice have their own (mostly unique) roots means that it is misguided to assume that fighting one kind of prejudice is exactly the same as fighting another kind of prejudice. And these forms of prejudice are the primary factors behind the lack of liberty of oppressed minorities. It is therefore disingenous to assume that these social injustices against minorities merely result from a lack of freedom; in fact, it is their lack of freedom that is caused by the unique discrimination each minority group faces. Hence, the need for separate movements devoted to fighting distinct forms of oppression.
It is true that such movements wouldn't be nearly as active or talked about in a truly free society as they would be in a oppressive society, but that's pretty much a truism. All it implies is that, in such a society, such discourse would be almost absent because at least most of the work has already been done.
I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening,[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="Laihendi"]
The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
dercoo
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
Banning fire arms and restricting fire arms are two different things.[QUOTE="Laihendi"]
I'll clarify my position. I think civil rights activists focusing on specific rights for specific groups of people should instead be advocating universal freedom for everyone. What many do not seem to realize is that every social injustice is the result of a lack of freedom. In a free society there would be no oppressive laws against anyone, and concepts such as "LGBT rights" and "women's rights" would not even be relevant. Many people like to make a fuss about oppressive laws targeted at the LGBT community, but then somehow don't care about the fact that almost every human on Earth is the target of oppressive laws by oppressive governments (US included).
ghoklebutter
Discrimination against LGBT people is mostly a result of anti-LGBT attitudes in society, and their lack of freedom arises from those attitudes. For instance, it would be disingenuous to say that the religious right in the USA oppose gay marriage only because they don't want gay people to have freedom; in reality, they oppose gay marriage because they think that homosexuality is evil, unnatural, etc. You see, their desire to restrict the freedom of LGBT people in this case is precisely a result of anti-LGBT attitudes.
To make my point clearer, here's an analogy: let's say that there is a white man and a black man hurling racial insults at each other, and I'm supposed to intervene before they start beating each other up. Clearly, racism implies a lack of respect, but I can't use abstraction to solve the problem. In other words, if I shout "Violence is bad!" while ignoring the racial element of that confrontation, I'm not addressing the actual root of the problem: racism. So in that case, I should make it clear that racism - especially racial violence - is bad. Of course, it's likely that they won't give a sh!t about what I say, but at least my attempt would be much more reasonable than merely calling them out on being mutually disrespectful in the most abstract sense possible.
And it makes sense to believe that women's rights, LGBT rights, etc. probably wouldn't be discussed in a truly free society. However, in the society you speak of, people will stop talking about liberating minorities from oppression only because those minorities no longer face systemic oppression.
Finally, the reason people have created these separate movements is that they are devoted to solving specific problems that have unique roots. If you care only about generalized social struggle, then you necessarily ignore the dynamics of oppression inherent in the oppression particular minorities face. Just like sexism is not exactly the same as racism, so homophobia is not exactly the same as all other forms of discrimination. And ignoring that fact can only be inimical to social struggle.
If the government could not legally interfere with our personal lives, it wouldn't matter how homophobic, racist, sexist, or whatever else the lawmakers/lawenforcers were. They would not be legally capable of oppressing anyone for any reason. I do think it's important to educate people about what it means to be homosexual, transgender, or whatever else, in order to create a less hostile environment. However, as a political movement the broader point is being overlooked, which is that the government doesn't have the right to oppress anyone for any reason.If the government could not legally interfere with our personal lives, it wouldn't matter how homophobic, racist, sexist, or whatever else the lawmakers/lawenforcers were. They would not be legally capable of oppressing anyone for any reason. I do think it's important to educate people about what it means to be homosexual, transgender, or whatever else, in order to create a less hostile environment. However, as a political movement the broader point is being overlooked, which is that the government doesn't have the right to oppress anyone for any reason.
Laihendi
Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean that these bigoted lesgislators have no influence. If they were powerless, we wouldn't care about opposing them. And you still fail to realize that these distinct forms of discrimination can only be eradicated entirely by addressing the unique roots of those forms of discrimination. For instance, racial discrimination will always occur until we get rid of the root cause of racial discrimination: racist attitudes. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean that workplace discrimination suddenly doesn't exist. And law enforcement can only do so much.
Social solutions to social injustices are at least as important as legislative solutions. You can't have one without the other, unless you believe that the social roots of social injustices are irrelevant. Also, the LGBT movement is also based on the idea that people should be allowed to do anything that doesn't infringe upon the liberty of others. If it weren't, then there probably wouldn't be as many pro-LGBT supporters out there.
Also, this isn't just about legislation; this is also about anti-LGBT prejudice and discrimination in general. For example, the systemic oppression that transgender people face (e.g. a lot of transgender people suffer from depression and self-hatred due to facing bigotry) isn't a result of lack of pro-LGBT laws that protect transgender people; it's the result of transphobia. Such laws cannot engender the acceptance of LGBT people. They are supposed to protect society, not socialize people to become pro-LGBT.
The reason movements like the LGBT movement exist is that the acceptance of minorities is not something that can be achieved through a generalized social movement. Any minority that faces a unique form of oppression needs a social movement that is devoted to eradicating that form of oppression that only affects them. Otherwise, you're just ignoring the reality of the specific form of oppression they face.
[QUOTE="dercoo"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] I'm all for that. Unfortunately, the religious and the extreme right are doing their best to prevent that from happening, DroidPhysX
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
Banning fire arms and restricting fire arms are two different things.The Clinton Gun Ban was a ban.:?
Banning fire arms and restricting fire arms are two different things.[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"][QUOTE="dercoo"]
The left want to violate my right to defend myself..... so...
dercoo
The Clinton Gun Ban was a ban.:?
>implying I meant the clinton gun banYes, but most people don't realize this is against, women's rights, black rights, gay rights, senior citizen rights, worker's rights. These so called rights make people unequal and make people hate each other. We don't need these certain "rights" because we already have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Now we just have to support and believe those rights. If not, we must support all group "rights" to make it fair and equal. It is more work. I would rather just say, life and liberty, but whatever. In this case I support bulling rights, racism rights, dictator rights as well as women, gay children, young-adult, worker's rights. Everybody has "rights!"The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
Laihendi
I am a liberal on most issues but I was in the Air Force and I have had to use a firearm to defend myself from a home invasion so I am totally in favour of the Second Amendment and the Freedom to Bear Arms. If I had not been able to use my gun and had the ability, will and inclination to shoot to kill my mother would not be alive today and neither would I.
When your own home is invaded you gain a new perspective. I would not have been suprised if I had to defend myself in Kuwait or Korea but after I got back home it was the last thing on my mind and I am greatful I had some experience with firearms and didn't panic when the time came and I had to react fast and didn't have time to think.
Who determines if we violated someone elses freedom? Where does the freedom of the individual A end and the violation of individual B begin? What if A and B disagree? What tools and/or actions should they be free to use to uphold their personal freedoms? What do YOU deem a personal freedom? You seem to one of those people who just walked out of some hippie motivational speech ceremony and have this thought of an UNREGULATED society that is only REGULATED when two people's freedoms collide. We got that now. But like the people who cannot understand where their personal freedom ends and another's violation begins the goverment, made of people as well, have the same faults. So mind explaining how this would work? I mean going into some details on personal freedoms and who determines what they are and their limit?The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
Laihendi
[QUOTE="Laihendi"]Who determines if we violated someone elses freedom? Where does the freedom of the individual A end and the violation of individual B begin? What if A and B disagree? What tools and/or actions should they be free to use to uphold their personal freedoms? What do YOU deem a personal freedom? You seem to one of those people who just walked out of some hippie motivational speech ceremony and have this thought of an UNREGULATED society that is only REGULATED when two people's freedoms collide. We got that now. But like the people who cannot understand where their personal freedom ends and another's violation begins the goverment, made of people as well, have the same faults. So mind explaining how this would work? I mean going into some details on personal freedoms and who determines what they are and their limit? Judges. The Constitution. Judges. The Constitution. Using heroin. It would work if people had a little principle. Everyone respects life and freedoms.The real problem is that we should be free to do whatever we want, as long as we do not violate the freedom of others. Where is the civil rights movement for that?
CreasianDevaili
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