The Muslim world blames the West for their own failures?

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"] mm i mentioned Egypt because i know they get aid from the USA, as far as i understand both for helping maintain the Egyptian military and it's government's balance sheet. As for Iraq, politics and war make for strange bed fellows. I don't quite understand it either, i guess it just render Iraq neutered for the time being. It lives on US and Iran's money and support, they can't exactly bite either hand or make any brash moves in support of one or the other. I don't know if there is any truth it (got this news from my dad) but apparently the F-16's that USA is selling to Iraq (at a price that sounds it's like 4 times what it should be...) apparently the US is insistent that ONLY Sunni and Kurdish pilots fly them. My dad likes to play the sectarian game, at the same time i can't be naive enough to believe in an ideal egalitarian PC way that Shia pilots might fly them off into Iran. I didn't make the rules of this stupid sectarian game of thrones. SaudiFury

that's pretty interesting about the Sunni and Kurdish pilots (would Turkey get mad if they knew Kurds were flying Iraq's F-16s?). I also found it kind of weird that during the 1991 Gulf War Saddam sent some of his planes to Iran in order to prevent them from getting bombed by the U.S. Once the war was over Saddam asked for the planes back and of course the Iranian government kept them for their own air force.

If i recall correctly.

Saddam didn't send some of his best planes to hide in his enemies country. I've read the book "Arabs At War" by Kenneth Pollack, very good if you want Arab military history analysis from 1946 to 1991. If memory serves me right he sent those plans to attack the US naval fleet in the Persian Gulf. the pilots instead of going to their intended target - of which they had not the faintest fvcking clue where the fleet was - said fvck this and scrammed for Iran. Seeing as Jordan (who allied with Iraq in it) was too far, and everyone else aside from Iran was at war with them at the time.

of course i'm being dramatic, but you see my point.

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]Lesser of two evils? What are you talking about? I-Sun_Tzu-

The key point here is that Group A blames Group B for their problems. Nobody ever blames themselves.

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

that's pretty interesting about the Sunni and Kurdish pilots (would Turkey get mad if they knew Kurds were flying Iraq's F-16s?). I also found it kind of weird that during the 1991 Gulf War Saddam sent some of his planes to Iran in order to prevent them from getting bombed by the U.S. Once the war was over Saddam asked for the planes back and of course the Iranian government kept them for their own air force.

whipassmt

If i recall correctly.

Saddam didn't send some of his best planes to hide in his enemies country. I've read the book "Arabs At War" by Kenneth Pollack, very good if you want Arab military history analysis from 1946 to 1991. If memory serves me right he sent those plans to attack the US naval fleet in the Persian Gulf. the pilots instead of going to their intended target - of which they had not the faintest fvcking clue where the fleet was - said fvck this and scrammed for Iran. Seeing as Jordan (who allied with Iraq in it) was too far, and everyone else aside from Iran was at war with them at the time.

of course i'm being dramatic, but you see my point.

I wouldn't say the Muslim world is a failure.

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

If i recall correctly.

Saddam didn't send some of his best planes to hide in his enemies country. I've read the book "Arabs At War" by Kenneth Pollack, very good if you want Arab military history analysis from 1946 to 1991. If memory serves me right he sent those plans to attack the US naval fleet in the Persian Gulf. the pilots instead of going to their intended target - of which they had not the faintest fvcking clue where the fleet was - said fvck this and scrammed for Iran. Seeing as Jordan (who allied with Iraq in it) was too far, and everyone else aside from Iran was at war with them at the time.

of course i'm being dramatic, but you see my point.

SaudiFury

I've read that Iraq buried their planes in order to prevent them from being destroyed because Saddam wanted to have the planes in case for the the future in case he needed to put down any insurrections against his rule.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"] Iran-Iraq war.... And it was the cold war...both us and the Soviets were fighting for power...it was necessary. whipassmt

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] The Iran-Iraq war was necessary? Out of all the things I've seen you say, this might be the most absurd of the lot. -Sun_Tzu-

I'm sorry you have a violent sexist religion, don't blame others for that.

Chrisitans blame Satan for all their failures, so what's the difference?br0kenrabbit

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="l4dak47"] Have you read up on history? l4dak47

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

lol

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="l4dak47"] How about instead of attacking my character, you attack my arguments? Oh wait, you can't because I'm right and you're wrong. BossPerson

They had to fund the Taliban..Iran was necessary, Saudi Arabi is to maintain our oil relationshops, Hussein was brutal and a threat to all innocents in the region, Afghanistian is necessary especially considered it's in such a volatile region...each of those had specific reasons dude. And doesn't change the fact that liberals love to play the blame game..just saying.

yet the US actually supported the Kurdish uprising in 91, also not to mention said chemical weapons were bought by a Dutch fellow called Van Anraat who actually sold raw materials to the iraqi's.

Not anywhere does it say America was involved in supporting Iraq in this, strangely this incident actually made Regan shift them off the supported states list and not to mention it was US companies not the government themselves that the raw materials came from aswell as other sources like India and W.Germany so really they should shoulder some of the blame for this aswell?

Not to mention, the fact you think its bad that the US have support for regimes in the middle east, if they didnt it would be a cesspool of war and probably world war 3 would be well underway not to mention it keeps Isreal and its inhabitants safe aswell.Theres a matter of balance most of them hate Isreal with a passion and blame them for their own short comings sometimes.

Also Obama on the whole being against the Iran attacks is actually smart, it could honestly cause massive amounts of destabilization in the region in a place where its already unstable and a massive clusterfvck apart from Saudi,Kuwait and the UAE.

Do you guys think thiS is true, does the Muslim civilization actually envy the West and would most Middle-Easterners secretly prefer to be more like the West, or even live there?

whipassmt

I've heard that quite a few times before, wouldn't surprise me if it was true but only in regards of the fundamentalist islam and terrorists.

If the west left the ME alone in the past and today,I think it would've been better,even if they still don't know what a car is.FMAB_GTO

[QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"]If the west left the ME alone in the past and today,I think it would've been better,even if they still don't know what a car is.Allthishate

[QUOTE="Allthishate"][QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"]If the west left the ME alone in the past and today,I think it would've been better,even if they still don't know what a car is.ShadowsDemon

[QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

[QUOTE="l4dak47"] Have you read up on history? l4dak47

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

If the west left the ME alone in the past and today,I think it would've been better,even if they still don't know what a car is.FMAB_GTO

[QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"]If the west left the ME alone in the past and today,I think it would've been better,even if they still don't know what a car is.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"]If the west left the ME alone in the past and today,I think it would've been better,even if they still don't know what a car is.Allthishate

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"][QUOTE="Allthishate"] u have never been to the middle east have u or seen pictures of it...Allthishate

[QUOTE="Allthishate"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]They give foreign aid to a lot more countries in the ME than Israel. Seriously do some research.LJS9502_basic

The Muslim world suffers from political amnesia, we now have learned, and so has forgotten not only Arafats resurrection but also American help to beleaguered Afghanis, terrified Kuwaitis, helpless Kurds and Shiites, starving Somalis, and defenseless Bosniansdirect intervention that has cost the United States much more treasure and lives than mere economic aid for Israel ever did.link

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="kingkong0124"]

Yes. But your view on history is skewed. I'm willing to bet you got yours from people like Howard Zinn.

Also, look up the amount the U.S. gives in foreign aid.

LJS9502_basic

It's hard to say, you can't generalise people like that. And by the Muslim world do you mean all Muslims or just those from the Middle East? There are Muslims from all over the world you know.

Though I'm sure some of the more hardcore Muslims dislike Western culture.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="l4dak47"] I don't know who Howard Zinn is. Furthermore, my view isn't skewed. The U.S. are one of the main reasons why the ME is the way it is. They funded and gave weapons to groups In Afghanistan who eventually became the Taliban, they overthrew the leader of Iran and installed a brutal dictator, they continue to fund nations like Saudi Arabia who are one of the worst when it comes to human rights, they funded Hussein and overthrew him when he became useless leading to a destabilized Iraq, and they continue to interfere in Afghanistan.l4dak47

hardcore muslims(extremists)

are the world most dangerous idiots.

hardcore muslims(extremists)

are the world most dangerous idiots.

quebec946

It is true that European and in recent times, American involvement in the Middle East is a major factor in why they and most of Africa and Asia are so f*cked up today, but the fact remains that pointing to these factors as the cause of their problem will solve nothing.

[QUOTE="l4dak47"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Eh I don't think it's one of the main reasons. What a group turns into over time is not the fault of those trying to help. There was a reason for the funding. Kind of a simplistic argument if you don't blame those with the agenda for said agenda. Naive as well. But then again you do love to spew anti American ideas so please...don't let reality stop you.LJS9502_basic

I don't know as much as you guys, but is that really a strawman?

The U.S. has a well documented history of interfering with foreign governments for its financial/political interests, often this is detrimental to the countries population.