The thing that killed my faith 2: Eden was rigged

I already made a thread on the first major flaw in Christianity that caught my attention and eventually opened my eyes to how ridiculous the whole thing is. Here is the second major problem I noticed. This is when I officially stopped believing this stuff.

one of the key issues I found in Christianity is the story of the garden of Eden. Not the scienfitific inaccuracy but the apparent sinister, capricious nature of the diety described in it. Now, I know many Christians will say

"The garden of Eden story is symbolic. its not literal."

Well, I really dont see how that is possible. Without the garden of Eden and the "tree of knowledge," than there is no "original sin." Without it, there isnt a definitive fall of man, and therefore there is no legitimacy or necessity for Jesus' supposed sacrifice. The story of the garden of eden is vital to the Christian view of history, Christian theology, and the Christian world view. it cant simply be discarded. plus, Jesus himself clearly believed in this story as literal truth. So if someone wants to make the "symbolism" argument, I would love to see how you can back that up, considering that its pretty much the cornerstone of Christianity.

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anyway, lets get to the issues with this story. we all know how it goes.

once upon a time, God created the garden of Eden. It was a wonderful magical place where there is no sin, corruption, death or pain. all the animals lived in perfect harmony. God gave the two humans one rule to follow. "Don't eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, or you will die." The humans, being the curious and stupid beings that they naturally are, ate from the tree with only a little coaxing from a certain snake. As soon as they ate the fruit, they realized that they were naked and that they had done "evil." god kicked them out of the garden and damned the entirety of mankind and womankind forever. And they all lived miserably ever after.

here are my problems with this

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1)if god didnt want them to eat the fruit, why did he create it? Scratch that. why would he put it in the center of the garden? Scratch that. why would he make it something that they are already accustomed to eating? scratch that. the bible says that the fruit was even pleasing to the eye……. so, this is already pretty sketchy. God clearly wanted them to eat it or at least goad them towards it.

2) if god created all the animals at once, that means there were deer, lions, raptors, cows, buffalo and so on, all living together in harmony. dont you find it a little odd that he would give certain creatures fangs and claws and other features that exist for the sole purpose of being a predator? Why would these peaceful creatures need fangs with which to tear apart meat? And isn't it odd that he would design creatures with antlers, fast legs, and other adaptations to help them survive the predators? If he never intended for the fall of man, why would he set things up in such a way that these creatures are designed to be perfectly adept at killing each other? It sure looks like he was counting on the fall of man. Otherwise his creations would just have alot of useless features for all eternity. How embarrassing that would be.

3)Adam and Eve had no concept of the following things

-negative consequences. it is impossible for someone to be scared into obedience when they have no understanding of what anything negative (Eg. a punishment) is.

- pain. this goes along with the thing above.

- death. when god said "or else you will surely die," afterwards they were probably saying to each other "yeah. whatever the **** that means. lol"

-sin. they had to eat from the tree to know what sin actually was. isnt that a contradiction? you dont know something is bad until you have already done it? thats not very fair.

-lies. for all they knew, the snake was telling the truth. they didnt know what a lie even was. When they got these conflicting pieces of information, Im surprised their heads didnt explode.

4)it is unclear whether or not this snake and satan are the same person. If they are, why the **** did god let him into the garden? He knew there would be no defense from his trickery and power. As I discussed before, these humans didn't understand lies and trickery. Talk about a neglectful father. That's like letting a pedophile/rapist share a room with your 9 year old daughters.

5)after an eternity of lounging around this garden, did god honestly think that they would never get curious? Its in human nature from the start. That's why the tree was so tempting. We are curious creatures. It is part of our survival instincts. Putting a tree, which would cause the fall of mankind forever, smack dab in the middle of the garden, is like putting a gleaming, shiny "self destruct" button on a satellite filled with untrained monkeys. Its like leaving an open bottle of "draino" in a toddler's room. It is simply irresponsible.

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So, if your god does exist, it is clear that he was hell-bent on bringing about the fall of man from the beginning. No other outcome is even thinkable under these circumstances. The fall of man, according to Christian theology, was rigged from the beginning. Therefore Christian god is nothing more than a malevolent, sadistic douche bag, who delights in setting us up for failure and then punishing us endlessly for it.

TC didnt you create a thread yesterday or two days ago with something else that "killed your faith"?chaoscougar1

TC didnt you create a thread yesterday or two days ago with something else that "killed your faith"?chaoscougar1

hence the "2" in the title;)

this is what sealed the deal. the "MK fatality of my theism," if you will.

Rigged or not, I see it as teaching an applicable lesson: beware of tempting offers and sly coercion, as they may end up destroying you.

Book of Genesis dripping with contradictions and inaccuracies and as time goes by, it just makes less and less sense. I don't understand why Religious leaders don't omit Genesis from the consortion of books in the Bible. It will be it's downfall.

Book of Genesis dripping with contradictions and inaccuracies and as time goes by, it just makes less and less sense. I don't understand why Religious leaders don't omit Genesis from the consortion of books in the Bible. It will be it's downfall.

Blue-Sky

[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

Book of Genesis dripping with contradictions and inaccuracies and as time goes by, it just makes less and less sense. I don't understand why Religious leaders don't omit Genesis from the consortion of books in the Bible. It will be it's downfall.

Nibroc420

Lol people say the earth is only 6000 years old so our carbon dating techniques of dinosaurs are inaccurate. Dinosaurs must be 5-6k old :roll:

My response is, Genesis clearly says it took God a full day to create the sun and the moon. They are trillions of stars in our Universe and our sun is actually a tiny star. So for God to take a whole day to create such a small star, how long did it take him to create the massive stars like Canis Majoris?

If God spent the same time making each star, as he did our Sun, that earth would be at least 1 trillion days old = over 27 Billion years.

And that's just from the info in Genesis.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

Book of Genesis dripping with contradictions and inaccuracies and as time goes by, it just makes less and less sense. I don't understand why Religious leaders don't omit Genesis from the consortion of books in the Bible. It will be it's downfall.

Lol people say the earth is only 6000 years old so our carbon dating techniques of dinosaurs are inaccurate. Dinosaurs must be 5-6k old :roll:

My response is, Genesis clearly says it took God a full day to create the sun and the moon. They are trillions of stars in our Universe and our sun is actually a tiny star. So for God to take a whole day to create such a small star, how long did it take him to create the massive stars like Canis Majoris?

If God spent the same time making each star, as he did our Sun, that earth would be at least 1 trillion days old = over 27 Billion years.

And that's just from the info in Genesis.

I don't normally say this, but come on...blog this, we really don't need a series on why you don't believe in a faith.ice144

I think they make good, semi-original debating topics.

[QUOTE="ice144"]I don't normally say this, but come on...blog this, we really don't need a series on why you don't believe in a faith.arbitor365

I think they make good, semi-original debating topics.

[QUOTE="arbitor365"]

[QUOTE="ice144"]I don't normally say this, but come on...blog this, we really don't need a series on why you don't believe in a faith.dodgerblue13

I think they make good, semi-original debating topics.

Nobody's faith will change maybe, but a good debate can be an enjoyable, stimulating exercise, provided it's done respectfully.

[QUOTE="dodgerblue13"][QUOTE="arbitor365"]

I think they make good, semi-original debating topics.

worlock77

Nobody's faith will change maybe, but a good debate can be an enjoyable, stimulating exercise, provided it's done respectfully.

Yeah I'm always up for a religious debate. No matter how pointless.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="dodgerblue13"] There is nothing original about this. And debate about religion is worthless. Nobody's faith will change because of gamespot. Those who believe in something won't be bothered by the fact that there are inaccuracies and those who find a loophole think they defeated religion in its entirety and are the first to ever think of it.Blue-Sky

Nobody's faith will change maybe, but a good debate can be an enjoyable, stimulating exercise, provided it's done respectfully.

Yeah I'm always up for a religious debate. No matter how pointless.

There is nothing original about this. And debate about religion is worthless.dodgerblue13

Have you seen the movie inception? one of the key rules portrayed in that movie is that you cannot force an idea into someone's mind. you have to let them come up with it on their own and guide them to it.

I dont expect the debate itself to instantly change someone's mind. the point is to spread seeds of doubt. It supposed to make people think for themselves. it exposes them to things that challenge their ideals. later in the day or when they are lying in bed, they might think over some of this stuff in their head. They might start to question their beleifs and that is the first step.

Nobody's faith will change maybe, but a good debate can be an enjoyable, stimulating exercise, provided it's done respectfully.worlock77

[QUOTE="worlock77"]Nobody's faith will change maybe, but a good debate can be an enjoyable, stimulating exercise, provided it's done respectfully.dodgerblue13

Well a good way to help it go along respectfully is by not hijacking the thread to complain about how pointless it is.

[QUOTE="dodgerblue13"][QUOTE="worlock77"]Nobody's faith will change maybe, but a good debate can be an enjoyable, stimulating exercise, provided it's done respectfully.worlock77

Well a good way to help it go along respectfully is by not hijacking the thread to complain about how pointless it is.

Have you seen the movie inception? one of the key rules portrayed in that movie is that you cannot force an idea into someone's mind. you have to let them come up with it on their own and guide them to it.arbitor365

I dont expect the debate itself to instantly change someone's mind. the point is to spread seeds of doubt. It supposed to make people think for themselves. it exposes them to things that challenge their ideals. later in the day or when they are lying in bed, they might think over some of this stuff in their head. They might start to question their beleifs and that is the first step.arbitor365

1)if god didnt want them to eat the fruit, why did he create it? Scratch that. why would he put it in the center of the garden? Scratch that. why would he make it something that they are already accustomed to eating? scratch that. the bible says that the fruit was even pleasing to the eye……. so, this is already pretty sketchy. God clearly wanted them to eat it or at least goad them towards it.

- This question has already been asked for thousands of years. The answers range from a test of free will being necessary to He just felt like it. If you are willing to accept all powerful invisible beings, a piece of fruit designed to test human obedience is not big stretch.

2)if god created all the animals at once, that means there were deer, lions, raptors, cows, buffalo and so on, all living together in harmony. dont you find it a little odd that he would give certain creatures fangs and claws and other features that exist for the sole purpose of being a predator? Why would these peaceful creatures need fangs with which to tear apart meat? And isn't it odd that he would design creatures with antlers, fast legs, and other adaptations to help them survive the predators? If he never intended for the fall of man, why would he set things up in such a way that these creatures are designed to be perfectly adept at killing each other? It sure looks like he was counting on the fall of man. Otherwise his creations would just have alot of useless features for all eternity. How embarrassing that would be.

- This is a very trivial matter and is impossibe to answer accurately. If you are going to reject religion unless someone can explain to you why every animal looks like it does then you have chosen a real silly reason to reject it.

3)Adam and Eve had no concept of the following things

- I'm curious, how do you know what Adam and Eve had concepts of?

C'mon dude at least do this with a bit of respect. I'm not a religious person, nor do I believe in a higher power but if I'm going to try to have a friendly debate with someone I'm not going to actively insult their God. You save that kind of stuff for the religious fanatics who don't you leave you alone. ;)

I mean "disregard" in the sense that it's fictional, and as such Jesus never was, Moses never parted the Red Sea, and we were not created by some invisible deity.Nibroc420

- I'm curious, how do you know what Adam and Eve had concepts of?EntropyWins

they hadnt yet eaten from the "tree of the knowledge of good an evil" (this is pretty self explanatory) and they lived in a world without pain or conflict. its pretty easy to deduct what they would and wouldnt have a concept of at that point.

This question has already been asked for thousands of years. The answers range from a test of free will being necessary to He just felt like it. If you are willing to accept all powerful invisible beings, a piece of fruit designed to test human obedience is not big stretch.EntropyWins

what is the point of a test where in the subjects have no grasp of the consequences or most of the facotrs at play?

and if he just "felt like it" thats why I call him capricious.

This is a very trivial matter and is impossibe to answer accurately. If you are going to reject religion unless someone can explain to you why every animal looks like it does then you have chosen a real silly reason to reject it.EntropyWins

it does show that he clearly planned out man's fall ahead of time. Its not much of a legitimate test if you already know what the result would be and have set things up for it.

Imagine if you could watch your creator setting everything up around you for your horrible downfall, that you have no chance of escaping. surely since the divine creator has planned this out, you arent getting out of it. this is like if your parents cut the breaks on your car and then started advertising your room for rent. Of course, you dont know why yet. if you did know that your planned death was around the corner, how soul crushing would it be to be treated that way by people who said they would take care of you?

I guess the main point is that there was no real choice and "man's fall" was orchestrated directly by the one who judged us for it.

God's plan in all of this is to glorify himself. For someone who has no love of God, this is a horrible statement. However, for someone who loves God and wishes nothing else but to see his glory, this is the most magnificent thing that could happen. How our falling into sin glorifying to his name? As Romans 11:32 states, "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."mindstorm

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]I mean "disregard" in the sense that it's fictional, and as such Jesus never was, Moses never parted the Red Sea, and we were not created by some invisible deity.dodgerblue13

But if you're going to go through life believing that you are sinful, debased, unworthy because of the actions of a couple of people in far antiquity those people had better be real. If they aren't then the entire premise collapses.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

Book of Genesis dripping with contradictions and inaccuracies and as time goes by, it just makes less and less sense. I don't understand why Religious leaders don't omit Genesis from the consortion of books in the Bible. It will be it's downfall.

Blue-Sky

Lol people say the earth is only 6000 years old so our carbon dating techniques of dinosaurs are inaccurate. Dinosaurs must be 5-6k old :roll:

My response is, Genesis clearly says it took God a full day to create the sun and the moon. They are trillions of stars in our Universe and our sun is actually a tiny star. So for God to take a whole day to create such a small star, how long did it take him to create the massive stars like Canis Majoris?

If God spent the same time making each star, as he did our Sun, that earth would be at least 1 trillion days old = over 27 Billion years.

And that's just from the info in Genesis.

But if you're going to go through life believing that you are sinful, debased, unworthy because of the actions of a couple of people in far antiquity those people had better be real. If they aren't then the entire premise collapses.worlock77

Mythology to ancient cultures was always a symbolic, non-literal tale used to exemplify a certain moral or lesson. It only became a literal interpretation of history much later, when the political power of religion was important and required authority to keep that power. And what has more value to modern society? The Genesis story as a literal, historical event... or a lesson in temptation? Again I must say, it doesn't seem like your faith has been killed so much as your perception of a literal interpretation being true being usurped by reason.foxhound_fox

did you even read my preemptive response to this argument?

[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Where were the dinosaurs in Genesis? 8)limpbizkit818

Lol people say the earth is only 6000 years old so our carbon dating techniques of dinosaurs are inaccurate. Dinosaurs must be 5-6k old :roll:

My response is, Genesis clearly says it took God a full day to create the sun and the moon. They are trillions of stars in our Universe and our sun is actually a tiny star. So for God to take a whole day to create such a small star, how long did it take him to create the massive stars like Canis Majoris?

If God spent the same time making each star, as he did our Sun, that earth would be at least 1 trillion days old = over 27 Billion years.

And that's just from the info in Genesis.

No God created Light 3 days before he created Stars. It's another contradiction, but I didn't want to bring it up.

From the perspective of a human author who does not understand complexities of the Universe I can understand the inaccuracies. It never occurred to the authors of Genesis that the sun is also a star because in his eyes, the sun is massive, powerful and dominates the sky. So naturally the author dedicated a full day to it's creation and disregarded the smaller "lights" as signs used for astrology. The author also regards the moon which was made on the same day, as a similar but contrasting entity to the Sun, which we know today, the moon is not a light and is made out of elements similar to earth.

But in reality, those "signs" are actually distant stars far more massive and ferocious than anything our "sun" can begin to imagine. If Genesis was written from the perspective of a modern day author. Astrology wouldn't be mentioned (because it's bogus) and the sun and moon would have a weaker presence.

Also, you say God didn't take an actual "whole day" to create the sun. It is commonly accepted from the religious communities that the creation of the universe corresponds to the days of the week. It's clearly written that God rested on the last day, implying that his process was procedural through the first six days with no rest or delay.

[QUOTE="limpbizkit818"][QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

Lol people say the earth is only 6000 years old so our carbon dating techniques of dinosaurs are inaccurate. Dinosaurs must be 5-6k old :roll:

My response is, Genesis clearly says it took God a full day to create the sun and the moon. They are trillions of stars in our Universe and our sun is actually a tiny star. So for God to take a whole day to create such a small star, how long did it take him to create the massive stars like Canis Majoris?

If God spent the same time making each star, as he did our Sun, that earth would be at least 1 trillion days old = over 27 Billion years.

And that's just from the info in Genesis.

Blue-Sky

No God created Light 3 days before he created Stars. It's another contradiction, but I didn't want to bring it up.

From the perspective of a human author who does not understand complexities of the Universe I can understand the inaccuracies. It never occurred to the authors of Genesis that the sun is also a star because in his eyes, the sun is massive, powerful and dominates the sky. So naturally the author dedicated a full day to it's creation and disregarded the smaller "lights" as signs used for astrology. The author also regards the moon which was made on the same day, as a similar but contrasting entity to the Sun, which we know today, the moon is not a light and is made out of elements similar to earth.

But in reality, those "signs" are actually distant stars far more massive and ferocious than anything our "sun" can begin to imagine. If Genesis was written from the perspective of a modern day author. Astrology wouldn't be mentioned (because it's bogus) and the sun and moon would have a weaker presence.

Also, you say God didn't take an actual "whole day" to create the sun. It is commonly accepted from the religious communities that the creation of the universe corresponds to the days of the week. It's clearly written that God rested on the last day, implying that his process was procedural through the first six days with no rest or delay.

How does what you just said change anything? Your first post you present a response in which you extrapolate the text and figure the earth to be billions of years old. Your reading of the passage seems to miss the part where all the "lights in the expanse of the heavens" were made in one day, not trillions. I don't follow your reasoning and reading of the texts.

And fine, lets say that there was no rest on the 4th day. Since God created the Sun, Moon, and every star in the sky on this day, there is no way for us to conclude the amount of time allocated to each star.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]But if you're going to go through life believing that you are sinful, debased, unworthy because of the actions of a couple of people in far antiquity those people had better be real. If they aren't then the entire premise collapses.dodgerblue13

You could learn from it sure, but considering that the entire Christian faith hinges upon the inherited guilt of the transgression of Adam and Eve it kinda falls apart if Adam and Eve weren't real.