Theism

[QUOTE="FlyingArmbar"]

Thanks for correcting me. I read your message and said to myself "what?" because I thought that I had typed density.

mutenpika

And I agree with you, humans can wrap their heads around these theories. If we couldn't then they wouldn't exist in the first place. What I was trying to say is that the human mind has a lot difficulty. A lot of the rules that make sense in day to day life appear to fly out the window when we begin talking about the universe.

[QUOTE="p2rus"]A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche Makes the most sense to memutenpika

You've gotta' see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjGRySVyTDk

[QUOTE="mutenpika"][QUOTE="p2rus"]A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. -- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche Makes the most sense to mep2rus

Faith is an extension of perception. If you are no longer holding, tasting, seeing any apples, apples do not cease to exist, yet you know there are more apples in the world because you have perceived the existence of apples before.

You would think the exact same if you had never percieved apples, but rather, apple seeds.

[QUOTE="p2rus"][QUOTE="mutenpika"] I accept that I may be insane. However, I see no advantage to defying what I clearly perceive, and several rather flagrant disadvantages. If I refuse to trust my own perceptions, by what evidence am I to shape my actions around? EDIT: I guess by that I mean that Nietzsche may well be right, but if he is it makes no material difference.Theokhoth

Faith is an extension of perception. If you are no longer holding, tasting, seeing any apples, apples do not cease to exist, yet you know there are more apples in the world because you have perceived the existence of apples before.

You would think the exact same if you had never percieved apples, but rather, apple seeds.

This metaphor is confusing. What are "apple seeds"?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="p2rus"] I mean to me personally there is a difference between seeing an apple, holding, eating it (which is how i view perception), and faith / believing in some God - coming up with your own religion doesn't make it right. It's just not as popular as yours (which is just as likely to be right or wrong)BlueBirdTS

Faith is an extension of perception. If you are no longer holding, tasting, seeing any apples, apples do not cease to exist, yet you know there are more apples in the world because you have perceived the existence of apples before.

You would think the exact same if you had never percieved apples, but rather, apple seeds.

This metaphor is confusing. What are "apple seeds"?

The tools with which you conclude that, despite never perceiving these things called "apples," apples exist.

[QUOTE="p2rus"][QUOTE="mutenpika"] I accept that I may be insane. However, I see no advantage to defying what I clearly perceive, and several rather flagrant disadvantages. If I refuse to trust my own perceptions, by what evidence am I to shape my actions around? EDIT: I guess by that I mean that Nietzsche may well be right, but if he is it makes no material difference.Theokhoth

Faith is an extension of perception. If you are no longer holding, tasting, seeing any apples, apples do not cease to exist, yet you know there are more apples in the world because you have perceived the existence of apples before.

You would think the exact same if you had never percieved apples, but rather, apple seeds.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="p2rus"] I mean to me personally there is a difference between seeing an apple, holding, eating it (which is how i view perception), and faith / believing in some God - coming up with your own religion doesn't make it right. It's just not as popular as yours (which is just as likely to be right or wrong)p2rus

Faith is an extension of perception. If you are no longer holding, tasting, seeing any apples, apples do not cease to exist, yet you know there are more apples in the world because you have perceived the existence of apples before.

You would think the exact same if you had never percieved apples, but rather, apple seeds.

Well, if God does exist, then a person having no faith in God (or having faith in God before losing that faith) wouldn't make God not exist any more than the apple.

[QUOTE="p2rus"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Faith is an extension of perception. If you are no longer holding, tasting, seeing any apples, apples do not cease to exist, yet you know there are more apples in the world because you have perceived the existence of apples before.

You would think the exact same if you had never percieved apples, but rather, apple seeds.

Theokhoth

Well, if God does exist, then a person having no faith in God (or having faith in God before losing that faith) wouldn't make God not exist any more than the apple.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="p2rus"] I mean my faith in the rational word (that when i turn away from the apple it doesn't cease to exist) doesn't equate the faith one has in God (Unless it does - I have no faith in any sort of God or religion). I guess you could say that since I have never percieved any sort of supreme being that it isn't logical for me to have faith in one anyway.p2rus

Well, if God does exist, then a person having no faith in God (or having faith in God before losing that faith) wouldn't make God not exist any more than the apple.

What would you consider evidence?

RUN! it's it's it's, the philosophers!!!!!!!!

What would you consider evidence?

Theokhoth

RUN! it's it's it's, the philosophers!!!!!!!!

12345678ew

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

How can the former be possible? The universe is always expanding and will eventually collapse in on itself; if the universe always existed then that defies every law of physics we know.

Theokhoth

I don't equate cyclical with eternal.

I'm a theist, as I believe God is real, and I believe the Bible is His Word.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Meh. I couldn't care less about theism. There is no reason for me to believe any sort of God, gods or supernatural beings or forces exist. The only "Gods" I see that actually do exist are 1) my parents for creating me and 2) the Sun, water and oxygen for maintaining my life here on Earth.

foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]I'm a pandeist. To me, it is the most logical belief one could have.BlueBirdTS

Isn't it possible that the universe simply always existed or that it sprang out of nothing?

I believe that god may exist, but if so then we will never be able to understand him or know what he's like, although I hope he's loving and caring. There's also a possibility that he doesn't exist.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]What would you consider evidence?

p2rus

Of pantheism, panentheism, atheism, polytheism, theism, finite-godism, etc., I see theism as the most logical choice for explaining everything in the universe. mindstorm

not really. The first violates mathematical rules. Self-contradictions arise when we say that actual infinites exist. The latter is wrong because it violates the first principle of metaphysics, namely that out of nothing, nothing comes.

danwallacefan

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]Of pantheism, panentheism, atheism, polytheism, theism, finite-godism, etc., I see theism as the most logical choice for explaining everything in the universe. awesomeray

[QUOTE="BlueBirdTS"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]I'm a pandeist. To me, it is the most logical belief one could have.danwallacefan

Isn't it possible that the universe simply always existed or that it sprang out of nothing?

How does infinity violate mathematical rules? Who's to say that our "rules" are correct? I'm not saying you're wrong, but citing rules and principles that are based on human observations doesn't necessarily completely rule out the possibility that the universe has always existed.

[QUOTE="awesomeray"][QUOTE="mindstorm"]Of pantheism, panentheism, atheism, polytheism, theism, finite-godism, etc., I see theism as the most logical choice for explaining everything in the universe. Crushmaster

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I don't think anyone knows how everything started. Like, if there was a big bang, what caused it and what happened before then.

What's a theist? I'm serious.ShowStopper102

Someone who believes in some kind of deity (i.e God).

What's a theist? I'm serious.ShowStopper102

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"]

[QUOTE="BlueBirdTS"]

Isn't it possible that the universe simply always existed or that it sprang out of nothing?

BlueBirdTS

How does infinity violate mathematical rules? Who's to say that our "rules" are correct? I'm not saying you're wrong, but citing rules and principles that are based on human observations doesn't necessarily completely rule out the possibility that the universe has always existed.

Now, the problem with your theory about an infinitely old universe is that it leads to self-contradictions, like the problem of traversing the infinite, or hilbert's hotel/library

this to say that everything started from nothing doesnt seem right to meawesomeray

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]

[QUOTE="awesomeray"] this to say that everything started from nothing doesnt seem right to medog64

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I don't think anyone knows how everything started. Like, if there was a big bang, what caused it and what happened before then.

I think that theism is a wonderful social outcome, that just never seems to be able to work without serious flaws : from its perception to its practice.

Inevitably of course as any human creation.

But, hey, hope is the last to die...

[QUOTE="awesomeray"]this to say that everything started from nothing doesnt seem right to mefoxhound_fox

[QUOTE="awesomeray"]this to say that everything started from nothing doesnt seem right to mefoxhound_fox

I'm an atheist. I believe harm can come out of poorly guided theism. The central tenant of theism is wrong, but the morals that make them up could very well be right in some situations. It is too simple minded, but I don't like the idea that science should substitute morality.Genetic_Code

EDIT: I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. Haven't seen one of these babies in years.

Srlys though I do agree with you.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

[QUOTE="awesomeray"]this to say that everything started from nothing doesnt seem right to meCrushmaster

Whats an Evolutionist and what does it have to do with the origin of the Universe?

[QUOTE="dog64"]

[QUOTE="Crushmaster"]

Indeed. It is illogical to say something comes from nothing.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Crushmaster

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I don't think anyone knows how everything started. Like, if there was a big bang, what caused it and what happened before then.

You most likely wouldn't, unless you're raised in a certain religion and family urges you to stay in it. Otherwise, yes you should only believe in something if you think its true. But there are two keywords here: "believe" and "think". It doesn't matter how many members a religion has, or how confident a person belives in something; That doesn't prove it to be true.

That said, I don't think many people believe that everything came from nothing.

[QUOTE="BlueBirdTS"]

[QUOTE="danwallacefan"] not really. The first violates mathematical rules. Self-contradictions arise when we say that actual infinites exist. The latter is wrong because it violates the first principle of metaphysics, namely that out of nothing, nothing comes.

danwallacefan

How does infinity violate mathematical rules? Who's to say that our "rules" are correct? I'm not saying you're wrong, but citing rules and principles that are based on human observations doesn't necessarily completely rule out the possibility that the universe has always existed.

Now, the problem with your theory about an infinitely old universe is that it leads to self-contradictions, like the problem of traversing the infinite, or hilbert's hotel/library

I see. I will have to do more research on the matter, but I do believe (for now) that the universe is finite in scope and time.

Whats an Evolutionist and what does it have to do with the origin of the Universe?

Ingenemployee

[QUOTE="Ingenemployee"]

Whats an Evolutionist and what does it have to do with the origin of the Universe?

BumFluff122

I didn't say it was only believed by evolutionists. Furthermore, do you know of a single evolutionist who does not believe in the Big Bang?

Crushmaster

As I stated, there is an entire category of theistic thinkers who's beliefs fall under the subcategory of 'theistic evolution' or 'evolutionary creationism'. Here is a wikipedia link describing it.

BumFluff122