USA health care in terrible shape

The second the United States switches to Socialized Medicine (hypothetically speaking) it will cause more problems. Doctors here go to school for 8 years and make somewhere from $200-400k/ year. Now you switch to Socialized Medicine and you will be cutting their pay by over 50% and still requiring major amouts of schooling.Smoke89

The purpose of a national health care program isn't to produce rich doctors. There would still be private hospitals that can save lives for $$$, where top surgeons would still be able to find employment. Popular demand among the rich will ensure this.

Say this happens you are going to have less people wanting the liablilities, stress, work hours, and schooling for the same pay as your every day joe. Thus, just like in countires that use it, affordable health care with a wait so long if you really need help your probably gonna be dead due to lack of personel. Smoke89

What country has the most doctors per citizen? Norway, with highly socialised health care. What country has the most dentists per citizen? Sweden, with highly socialised health care. Canadians, Norwegians and Swedes all have at least 2 years longer life expectancy than Americans on average, as do eleven other nationalities. If socialised health care means worse care, how do you explain this?

The US is huge and has way more people, resulting in ugly numbers vs. places like France who are close to the size of texas and people are compact in living radius. Smoke89

The US is 50% more crowded than Sweden, three times as densely populated as Norway and ten times more densely populated than Canada and Australia.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

Why not emulate other countries when they have a better system? Are we really that arrogant?

LJS9502_basic

Their system isn't better.:|

You may want to read up a bit on the issues facing their health care. Long waiting lists for necessary treatment is but one problem. The health care has been called sub par and that is why those who can afford to do so carry private health insurance. That does not instill confidence.

More qualified people than you or me agree that their systems are better...

Read

More qualified people than you or me agree that their systems are better for the uninsured.

Engrish_Major

Fixed?

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

More qualified people than you or me agree that their systems are better for the uninsured.

Oleg_Huzwog

Fixed?

Man, have you read any of the articles I have cited? They all include insured as well...

More qualified people than you or me agree that their systems are better...

Read

Engrish_Major

Did you read that? When the criteria diffentiates between insured and unisured there is bias. That should not be considered when talking about the actual care.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

No it's not... my initial statement was 'insurance companies don't want you'.

anyway, what does it matter? You don't care about chronically ill unable to get coverage?

LJS9502_basic

If they have coverage...they keep it.:|

I don't think we need to emulate other countries. It would be better to lower insurance costs...and have plans for those that are low income or sick. But looking at Canada and the UK one clearly sees a problem with their healthcare as is.

Okay, let's say something like this happens.

Someone's employer gives them health insurance. During this time, this person is diagnosed with a chronic disease. But, he's still covered under the insurance...until a few months later when the employee loses their job. I had first-hand experience with a situation very similar to that, and it is very, very difficult for that person to get covered by a new insurance company -- especially when that person is unemployed(but looking to find a new job).

I know, that situation probably isn't all the common -- but it does happen to a lot of people, and it really freaking sucks. That said, I agree with the second part of your post. Those with pre-existing conditions shouldn't be screwed over as much as they are now.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

More qualified people than you or me agree that their systems are better...

Read

LJS9502_basic

Did you read that? When the criteria diffentiates between insured and unisured there is bias. That should not be considered when talking about the actual care.

Why?

Anyway, even though on average we receive less quality of care than other industriallized nations, why do we spend 3X as much?

Answer: corporations receiving profit, to the detriment of the patient.

Why?

Anyway, even though on average we receive less quality of care than other industriallized nations, why do we spend 3X as much?

Answer: corporations receiving profit, to the detriment of the patient.

Engrish_Major

Because it skews the report. The actual health care is not the issue. It's the problem of the uninsured...but because we have that they debit the care itself.

It's like this. You have a 360...I do not. If one were reviewing the console it would be wrong to lower the score solely due to not everyone owning it.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

Why?

Anyway, even though on average we receive less quality of care than other industriallized nations, why do we spend 3X as much?

Answer: corporations receiving profit, to the detriment of the patient.

LJS9502_basic

Because it skews the report. The actual health care is not the issue. It's the problem of the uninsured...but because we have that they debit the care itself.

It's like this. You have a 360...I do not. If one were reviewing the console it would be wrong to lower the score solely due to not everyone owning it.

Okay, but what about the cost? Why should we pay 2 to 3 times more than everyone else (and we certainly do not receive 2 to 3 times the quality of care, unless you are wealthy.)

[QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"]if you read the acticle the woman says that our health care system is really good....the main problem it only works if you have ACCESS to it.Thechaninator

Exactly why our healtcare system sucks.

Everyone should have acess, but God forbid we do anything remotely socialist.....

Yea! Lets go through with the socialist health care system! That is a great idea! I mean sure, it may increase doner lists up to about 5 years and it would take away medical specialists so that someone can wait about 6 months to talk to a heart specialist within the hospital. That's a great idea! I mean, who cares about all those people right?

Okay, but what about the cost? Why should we pay 2 to 3 times more than everyone else (and we certainly do not receive 2 to 3 times the quality of care, unless you are wealthy.)

Engrish_Major

I don't know how they arrived at their figures. I pay little for my health care....it used to totally free. I don't see how the high taxes could be that much less.

There is inequity in pharmaceuticals. The drug companies claim it's due to R & D...though I think they should average the cost among all nations. This is something the government could easily fix.

[QUOTE="Thechaninator"]

[QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"]if you read the acticle the woman says that our health care system is really good....the main problem it only works if you have ACCESS to it.LikeHaterade

Exactly why our healtcare system sucks.

Everyone should have acess, but God forbid we do anything remotely socialist.....

Yea! Lets go through with the socialist health care system! That is a great idea! I mean sure, it may increase doner lists up to about 5 years and it would take away medical specialists so that someone can wait about 6 months to talk to a heart specialist within the hospital. That's a great idea! I mean, who cares about all those people right?

Maybe you should take the time to read some of the articles I've cited, since you're so enthusiastic about the subject. Dig a little, and you might end up debunking many of the myths perpetrated to keep the capitalist greed system alive and healthy...

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

Okay, but what about the cost? Why should we pay 2 to 3 times more than everyone else (and we certainly do not receive 2 to 3 times the quality of care, unless you are wealthy.)

LJS9502_basic

I don't know how they arrived at their figures. I pay little for my health care....it used to totally free. I don't see how the high taxes could be that much less.

There is inequity in pharmaceuticals. The drug companies claim it's due to R & D...though I think they should average the cost among all nations. This is something the government could easily fix.

I do have plenty of sources comparing our egregious costs as compared to other nations who do not have a profitable capitalistsystem in place, unless you just want to take my word that insured Americans spend much much more than our socialist counterparts for equal or inferior service.

Maybe you should take the time to read some of the articles I've cited, since you're so enthusiastic about the subject. Dig a little, and you might end up debunking many of the myths perpetrated to keep the capitalist greed system alive and healthy...

Engrish_Major

I would like to suggest you do likewise. Read some reports about the problems with healthcare in Canada and the UK. For the money they spend the care is not that good...do we need some changes? Yes. Should we embrace their current system....absolutely not.

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"][QUOTE="Thechaninator"]

[QUOTE="UnknownSniper65"]if you read the acticle the woman says that our health care system is really good....the main problem it only works if you have ACCESS to it.Engrish_Major

Exactly why our healtcare system sucks.

Everyone should have acess, but God forbid we do anything remotely socialist.....

Yea! Lets go through with the socialist health care system! That is a great idea! I mean sure, it may increase doner lists up to about 5 years and it would take away medical specialists so that someone can wait about 6 months to talk to a heart specialist within the hospital. That's a great idea! I mean, who cares about all those people right?

Maybe you should take the time to read some of the articles I've cited, since you're so enthusiastic about the subject. Dig a little, and you might end up debunking many of the myths perpetrated to keep the capitalist greed system alive and healthy...

Socialized healthcare worked very well in the 80's. But now that it has been switched over, I think that it should stay. Switching it back will effect jobs of medical specialists and other people's lives.

I do have plenty of sources comparing our egregious costs as compared to other nations who do not have a profitable capitalistsystem in place, unless you just want to take my word that insured Americans spend much much more than our socialist counterparts for equal or inferior service.

Engrish_Major

I'm not talking about just the uninsured. I'm talking about the entirety. Overall, our healthcare is not inferior. You are talking about a minority. Your current suggestion will cost the majority more and will degrade the care they now enjoy. This is simply not the solution.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

I do have plenty of sources comparing our egregious costs as compared to other nations who do not have a profitable capitalistsystem in place, unless you just want to take my word that insured Americans spend much much more than our socialist counterparts for equal or inferior service.

LJS9502_basic

I'm not talking about just the uninsured. I'm talking about the entirety. Overall, our healthcare is not inferior. You are talking about a minority. Your current suggestion will cost the majority more and will degrade the care they now enjoy. This is simply not the solution.

How will it cost the majority more? The majority already pay much more than our counterparts.

I'm one of those who believe health care is a privilege and not a right. I am not interested in statistics that include the uninsured. Show me damning evidence that compares people who are insured in the U.S. versus people who are insured in other countries.

Oleg_Huzwog

Health care should be a right where it is readily availible. You shouldn't have people dying without cause because they aren't insured.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aEXFUbSbg1I

Watch that video and the others.

I am less scared about actual socialized healthcare than i am about the government having to cut funds for the healthcare of people then EVERYONE gets hit. Look at Social Security. They keep pushing the age limit up because they can't afford it completely right now and i think quite alot of people think SS is not going to last much longer. I can just imagine the same thing happening with socialized healthcare. Not necissarilly pushing ages up but them cutting funding on research and development.

If the government cant fund a war with several hundred thousand men and women and their supplysfighting overseasthen how in the world are they going to fund for 300,000,000 people? If you don't make a profit then you lose money. In order to gain that money backthe governmentraises taxes.

In the video above it talks about how the Insurance companies are to blame for the high prices. If people did not have to pay for their doctors visits then why should they care how many times they go and how many different drugs they consume? If they go every month then the government has to pay every single time that happens (unless of course they start taxing/fining you if you go more than a certain ammount of times). That is what is happening right now. People are living off of pills at the Insurance companies expense and since doctors don't have an incentive to keep the prices down, they raise them (there could also be a supply and demand factor too, more people would get the drugs which would increase demand as well as price).

I fear for the future because i have seen how social security has worked out. They take money away from you your whole life then give it to people you don't even know. If SS was put into a private bank account, you could be sure of how much money they take away from you and you can make sure you get that same ammount back in the future (lets hope the government doesn't go broke by then).

I would certainly be less opposed to socialized healthcare if the government just gave the people a certain ammount of money (in a private bank account of course) each year and let you spend it how you want. If people choose to spend it for healthcare then GREAT they are smart but if people choose to use it for useless and unnecessary things (like the computer i am on right now or cable TV or internet or new cars) then that is there own fault. They cannot say the government did not give them a chance. This would be good for people like me who rarely Visit the doctors (the last time i went was over 5 years ago)so i could save that money incase something really bad happens.

its called materialistic americans.... look at canada... it doesnt work there. They need urgent care they come here. People who can afford it are perfectly fine. We have health centers for those who can't, but it takes waiting. Disfuntional? perhaps, but really people who have nothing put themselves in that hole. Who didn't go to school; couldn't afford it? scholorships, if it is that important try harder.... i mean its not our problem people can't afford it when the majority of the lower class can. I may be a bit harsh but I simply don't find it neccisary to fix statistics because people simply don't give a crap.

its called materialistic americans.... look at canada... it doesnt work there. They need urgent care they come here. People who can afford it are perfectly fine. We have health centers for those who can't, but it takes waiting. Disfuntional? perhaps, but really people who have nothing put themselves in that hole. Who didn't go to school; couldn't afford it? scholorships, if it is that important try harder.... i mean its not our problem people can't afford it when the majority of the lower class can. I may be a bit harsh but I simply don't find it neccisary to fix statistics because people simply don't give a crap.

Smoke89

Yes this is clearly it people he has solved the age old question on why over 50% of the worlds population is in poverty: because they don't try hard enough :roll:.

This is so silly...The yanks have 46 million uninsured citizens. Sure, national healthcare has its flaws, but it's nothing compared to the current crap.

Please answer this question, why do almost every single western nation except America have nationalized healthcare.

This is so silly...The yanks have 46 million uninsured citizens. Sure, national healthcare have its flaws, but it's nothing compared to the current crap.

Please answer this question, why do almost every single western nation except America have nationalized healthcare.

jointed

Different governing philosophies. Some people think government should be a provider. Others think self-reliance is a more admirable quality.

.

Please answer this question, why do almost every single western nation except America have nationalized healthcare.

jointed

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

[QUOTE="jointed"]

.

Please answer this question, why do almost every single western nation except America have nationalized healthcare.

hair001

Don't give me that crap. The system as a whole is better. I would have been sceptical if it existed in two or three countries only, but this isn't the case...the vast majority of the west has adopted it. I mean...come on...be serious.

This is so silly...The yanks have 46 million uninsured citizens. Sure, national healthcare have its flaws, but it's nothing compared to the current crap.

Please answer this question, why do almost every single western nation except America have nationalized healthcare.

jointed

Because universal health care just doesn't work!

It's pretty amusing to see some of you yanks saying that for the insured its fine, hence its all good. Like all uninsured people are all uninsrued by choice, not circumstances. Don't be so ignorant.

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

deshields538

You put "free" and "higher taxes" in the same sentence?

[QUOTE="hair001"][QUOTE="jointed"]

.

Please answer this question, why do almost every single western nation except America have nationalized healthcare.

jointed

Don't give me that crap. The system as a whole is better. I would have been sceptical if it existed in two or three countries only, but this isn't the case...the vast majority of the west has adopted it. I mean...come on...be serious.

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

deshields538

[QUOTE="jointed"][QUOTE="hair001"][QUOTE="jointed"]

.

Please answer this question, why do almost every single western nation except America have nationalized healthcare.

hair001

Don't give me that crap. The system as a whole is better. I would have been sceptical if it existed in two or three countries only, but this isn't the case...the vast majority of the west has adopted it. I mean...come on...be serious.

:roll:

You just don't get it...

I'm not saying that the services are better, I'm saying that the system is better...

The private market is growing because the upper and upper-middle classes want better services...

[QUOTE="deshields538"]

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

hair001

Why should you be forced to pay for roads you'll most likely never drive on?

Why should you be forced to pay for roads you'll most likely never drive on?

jointed

That's a very weak comparison. Health care is structured around the individual, not the public.

[QUOTE="jointed"]

Why should you be forced to pay for roads you'll most likely never drive on?

Oleg_Huzwog

That's a very weak comparison. Health care is structured around the individual, not the public.

Not really, the point is still solid. He's paying for things that doesn't affect him in any way...

[QUOTE="deshields538"]

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

hair001

Helping your fellow man and not being a greedy bugger? We all live on this planet together and might as well help each other out.

[QUOTE="deshields538"]

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

Oleg_Huzwog

You put "free" and "higher taxes" in the same sentence?

Free as in if I pay my taxes, I (or my insurance company) don't have to pay thousands for an operation.

IMO our system works best when it comes to A&E. If I break my arm I just go down to A&E, get checked out, have an x-ray or 2 and then get the cast put on. And at A&E if you have an injury that isn't serious you'll have to wait around 3 hours. Much better than paying IMO.

[QUOTE="hair001"][QUOTE="deshields538"]

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

deshields538

Helping your fellow man and not being a greedy bugger? We all live on this planet together and might as well help each other out.

The thing that people don't seem to realize is that other industrialized nations with socialized health care (even mixed programs) pay far less per capita than Americans. That is because every hospital room visit and insurance payment does not bring more profit to wealthy insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

I guess Americans just shudder at the thought of paying a dime to those less fortunate.

I'm in good health because of proper diet.

I don't feel sorry for people who eat fast food and get sick all the time.

I don't have health insurance and I don't want it. It's a WASTE of money.

Right now money is very tight for me. Paying for college and rent is very very hard. I work full-time and go to school.

I could get insurance right now through the company I work for, but frankly I can not afford it.

If a forced Universal Healthcare rolls out, frankly I don't know how I will manage to pay my bills.

Helping your fellow man and not being a greedy bugger? We all live on this planet together and might as well help each other out.

deshields538

Yes, yes, let's all gather around the campfire and sing Kumbaya.

I'm in good health because of proper diet.

I don't feel sorry for people who eat fast food and get sick all the time.

I don't have health insurance and I don't want it. It's a WASTE of money.

Right now money is very tight for me. Paying for college and rent is very very hard. I work full-time and go to school.

I could get insurance right now through the company I work for, but frankly I can not afford it.

If a forced Universal Healthcare rolls out, frankly I don't know how I will manage to pay my bills.

JohnWinger

What happens if you get cancer? Or if you trip and break an ankle?

[QUOTE="JohnWinger"]

I'm in good health because of proper diet.

I don't feel sorry for people who eat fast food and get sick all the time.

I don't have health insurance and I don't want it. It's a WASTE of money.

Right now money is very tight for me. Paying for college and rent is very very hard. I work full-time and go to school.

I could get insurance right now through the company I work for, but frankly I can not afford it.

If a forced Universal Healthcare rolls out, frankly I don't know how I will manage to pay my bills.

Engrish_Major

What happens if you get cancer? Or if you trip and break an ankle?

I take things as they come and plan ahead as much as I can for rainy days. I don't depend on the Government to babysit me.

People in the USA need to take responsibility and stop pointing fingers at the government.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="JohnWinger"]

I'm in good health because of proper diet.

I don't feel sorry for people who eat fast food and get sick all the time.

I don't have health insurance and I don't want it. It's a WASTE of money.

Right now money is very tight for me. Paying for college and rent is very very hard. I work full-time and go to school.

I could get insurance right now through the company I work for, but frankly I can not afford it.

If a forced Universal Healthcare rolls out, frankly I don't know how I will manage to pay my bills.

JohnWinger

What happens if you get cancer? Or if you trip and break an ankle?

I take things as they come and plan ahead as much as I can for rainy days. I don't depend on the Government to babysit me.

People in the USA need to take responsibility and stop pointing fingers at the government.

Typical answer. Of course the poor and lower-middle class are just going to 'take responsibility' and all go and get health insurance and an education...

[QUOTE="Oleg_Huzwog"][QUOTE="jointed"]

Why should you be forced to pay for roads you'll most likely never drive on?

jointed

That's a very weak comparison. Health care is structured around the individual, not the public.

Not really, the point is still solid. He's paying for things that doesn't affect him in any way...

I think you are misinformed how the US tax system works.

I take things as they come and plan ahead as much as I can for rainy days. I don't depend on the Government to babysit me.

JohnWinger

Plus no amount of planning ahead for a rainy day can provide you with the funds sufficient to take care of a major unforseen accident, or the onset of a chronic illness.

[QUOTE="JohnWinger"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="JohnWinger"]

I'm in good health because of proper diet.

I don't feel sorry for people who eat fast food and get sick all the time.

I don't have health insurance and I don't want it. It's a WASTE of money.

Right now money is very tight for me. Paying for college and rent is very very hard. I work full-time and go to school.

I could get insurance right now through the company I work for, but frankly I can not afford it.

If a forced Universal Healthcare rolls out, frankly I don't know how I will manage to pay my bills.

Engrish_Major

What happens if you get cancer? Or if you trip and break an ankle?

I take things as they come and plan ahead as much as I can for rainy days. I don't depend on the Government to babysit me.

People in the USA need to take responsibility and stop pointing fingers at the government.

Typical answer. Of course the poor and lower-middle class are just going to 'take responsibility' and all go and get health insurance and an education...

I make $18,000 a year and I'm managing quite well. If people don't know how to manage money or don't want to go to college that's THIER responsibility. If they don't want to sacrfice to have good things that's THIER responsibility.

[QUOTE="deshields538"][QUOTE="hair001"][QUOTE="deshields538"]

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

Engrish_Major

Helping your fellow man and not being a greedy bugger? We all live on this planet together and might as well help each other out.

The thing that people don't seem to realize is that other industrialized nations with socialized health care (even mixed programs) pay far less per capita than Americans. That is because every hospital room visit and insurance payment does not bring more profit to wealthy insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

I guess Americans just shudder at the thought of paying a dime to those less fortunate.

I make $18,000 a year and I'm managing quite well. If people don't know how to manage money or don't want to go to college that's THIER responsibility. If they don't want to sacrfice to have good things that's THIER responsibility.

JohnWinger

Okay, you're managing quite well, but you said yourself you cannot afford health insurance. What if you were able to?

[QUOTE="hair001"][QUOTE="deshields538"]

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

jointed

Why should you be forced to pay for roads you'll most likely never drive on?

[QUOTE="jointed"][QUOTE="hair001"][QUOTE="deshields538"]

So the basic idea for people who are against free nationalised healthcare is:

"I don't want to pay higher taxes. Why should I pay for people who aren't insured?"

Wow... just wow. :|

hair001

Why should you be forced to pay for roads you'll most likely never drive on?

Because a comprehensive infrastructure that is available to everyone is better for society as a whole, and is the hallmark of an advanced civilization.