US-held terror suspects 'abused'

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]This "abusing prisoner" thing is just another reason why this "war" is so messed up. Soldiers have to try and act like policemen, discerning the good guys from the bad guys. They are charged with crimes if they mess up and hit the wrong person, or if some innocent bystander gets in the crossfire when a terrorist takes pot shots at them with his AK. The media has been all over the alleged "abuse" of PRISONERS OF WAR which is total BS, by the way. When terrorists capture our troops, they slit their throats on live TV like animals. If we do so much as lay a hand on a terror suspect, the media blows it up and everyone is all upset about these poor unfortunate terrorists. The information that interrogators are getting out of these suspects are saving lives, not only soldier's lives but Americans as well. Why does it seem like everyone wants to be on the terrorists' team?MarineJcksn

Risky, I proudly salute you. Thanks for understanding what we're really going through over there, and cutting through the BS that our media pours out. The last sentance you wrote shows me you've picked up on the nice little tidbit of how the younger generation is encouraged to route for the enemy and bash the country.

Side note, today may be my last day posting for a while, I leave for Iraq this weekend. Thanks for the support and good times everybody!

Is this guy really going to Iraq this weekend ?

Good luck if you are I guess

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]This "abusing prisoner" thing is just another reason why this "war" is so messed up. Soldiers have to try and act like policemen, discerning the good guys from the bad guys. They are charged with crimes if they mess up and hit the wrong person, or if some innocent bystander gets in the crossfire when a terrorist takes pot shots at them with his AK. The media has been all over the alleged "abuse" of PRISONERS OF WAR which is total BS, by the way. When terrorists capture our troops, they slit their throats on live TV like animals. If we do so much as lay a hand on a terror suspect, the media blows it up and everyone is all upset about these poor unfortunate terrorists. The information that interrogators are getting out of these suspects are saving lives, not only soldier's lives but Americans as well. Why does it seem like everyone wants to be on the terrorists' team?MetalGear_Ninty

I rather have my throat slit, which almost immediately takes my life, rather then being tortured. I think most people would. Why do you think torture works?

The information they are getting out of these interrogators? What information? Do you know how many people are in Gitmo? How many have already been released, after, being tortured, and then being told they were innocent. Including British and US citizens. Do you understand why torture is violation of the Geneva conventions?

This isn't about the soldiers. The soldiers are told what to do, and they do it. They have to, as they essentially sell their lives to the government upon enlistment. They become trained killers, and they are good at it. However, they are not to blame. The damn government is.

So, when you see threads like this, use some common sense and realize that is the governmental policies that are being criticized. Even when it is a solider to blame, as the solider who commited the crime was under command of people who wear suits and smokes cigars.

Are you serious that you would rather die than be tortured -- I seriously find that hard to believe -- but if that is what you believe, than who am I to disagree?

And again, I just don't take this oligarchical, aristocratic view of politicans, in a democratic society, politicians are merely representatives of the people.

So then, we the people are at fault for all crimes that are commited under the banner of the United States. I would rather take this position as well, however, seeing as a vast amount of our country voices that they play no hand in our nation's affairs, it's difficult to hold that view.

Ideally, what the American public wants gets translated to the top tiers of government. In reality, I don't think that happens.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="rimnet00"]

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]This "abusing prisoner" thing is just another reason why this "war" is so messed up. Soldiers have to try and act like policemen, discerning the good guys from the bad guys. They are charged with crimes if they mess up and hit the wrong person, or if some innocent bystander gets in the crossfire when a terrorist takes pot shots at them with his AK. The media has been all over the alleged "abuse" of PRISONERS OF WAR which is total BS, by the way. When terrorists capture our troops, they slit their throats on live TV like animals. If we do so much as lay a hand on a terror suspect, the media blows it up and everyone is all upset about these poor unfortunate terrorists. The information that interrogators are getting out of these suspects are saving lives, not only soldier's lives but Americans as well. Why does it seem like everyone wants to be on the terrorists' team?rimnet00

I rather have my throat slit, which almost immediately takes my life, rather then being tortured. I think most people would. Why do you think torture works?

The information they are getting out of these interrogators? What information? Do you know how many people are in Gitmo? How many have already been released, after, being tortured, and then being told they were innocent. Including British and US citizens. Do you understand why torture is violation of the Geneva conventions?

This isn't about the soldiers. The soldiers are told what to do, and they do it. They have to, as they essentially sell their lives to the government upon enlistment. They become trained killers, and they are good at it. However, they are not to blame. The damn government is.

So, when you see threads like this, use some common sense and realize that is the governmental policies that are being criticized. Even when it is a solider to blame, as the solider who commited the crime was under command of people who wear suits and smokes cigars.

Are you serious that you would rather die than be tortured -- I seriously find that hard to believe -- but if that is what you believe, than who am I to disagree?

And again, I just don't take this oligarchical, aristocratic view of politicans, in a democratic society, politicians are merely representatives of the people.

So then, we the people are at fault for all crimes that are commited under the banner of the United States. I would rather take this position as well, however, seeing as a vast amount of our country voices that they play no hand in our nation's affairs, it's difficult to hold that view.

Ideally, what the American public wants gets translated to the top tiers of government. In reality, I don't think that happens.

I see what you are saying, but if the people feel that there will is not being executed, or they don't like the policies that are being introduced, then thay simply vote for somebody else in the elections -- and if the presidential/mayoral candidates aren't good enough, then isn't that the fault of the people -- that they can't provide good enough candidates that they would like to vote for?

[QUOTE="MarineJcksn"][QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]soren008

Is this guy really going to Iraq this weekend ?

Good luck if you are I guess

Thanks for that, Soren, I honestly appreciate it. I head out this weekend, can't say what day but it's definitely happening fast. Haven't been there in about 16 months, I'm actually really looking forward to going.

[QUOTE="soren008"][QUOTE="MarineJcksn"][QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]MarineJcksn

Is this guy really going to Iraq this weekend ?

Good luck if you are I guess

Thanks for that, Soren, I honestly appreciate it. I head out this weekend, can't say what day but it's definitely happening fast. Haven't been there in about 16 months, I'm actually really looking forward to going.

Pff, the "with us or against us" mentallity is getting kind of old. Just because you defend the "so-called" western values doesn't mean you're siding with the terrorists.

PS: MarineJackson, if you're really going to Iraq, good luck mate.

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]This "abusing prisoner" thing is just another reason why this "war" is so messed up. Soldiers have to try and act like policemen, discerning the good guys from the bad guys. They are charged with crimes if they mess up and hit the wrong person, or if some innocent bystander gets in the crossfire when a terrorist takes pot shots at them with his AK. The media has been all over the alleged "abuse" of PRISONERS OF WAR which is total BS, by the way. When terrorists capture our troops, they slit their throats on live TV like animals. If we do so much as lay a hand on a terror suspect, the media blows it up and everyone is all upset about these poor unfortunate terrorists. The information that interrogators are getting out of these suspects are saving lives, not only soldier's lives but Americans as well. Why does it seem like everyone wants to be on the terrorists' team?rimnet00

I rather have my throat slit, which almost immediately takes my life, rather then being tortured. I think most people would. Why do you think torture works?

Terrorists torture their prisoners relentlessly. I thought this was common knowledge, but considering you seem to think these terror suspects are such cuddly little teddy bears I thought I'd spell it out for you.

The information they are getting out of these interrogators? What information? Do you know how many people are in Gitmo? How many have already been released, after, being tortured, and then being told they were innocent. Including British and US citizens. Do you understand why torture is violation of the Geneva conventions?

This "torture" you speak of was a very few select ISOLATED incidents, where the parties at fault had been dealt with accordingly. The media blew the whole thing up and added some conspiracy theories to the mix.

This isn't about the soldiers. The soldiers are told what to do, and they do it. They have to, as they essentially sell their lives to the government upon enlistment. They become trained killers, and they are good at it. However, they are not to blame. The damn government is.

I AM in the military, I wouldn't care who told me to torture someone, I wouldn't do it. For some reason, you civilians seem to think that we have no brain at all, that we're some kind of robotic machine that waits for some higher up to program us to do the next move. Please.

So, when you see threads like this, use some common sense and realize that is the governmental policies that are being criticized. Even when it is a solider to blame, as the solider who commited the crime was under command of people who wear suits and smokes cigars.

Again, I'm in the service. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Mr_sprinkles

Thanks for the well wishes Sprinkles! I'll be there for 7 months, probably.

[QUOTE="enjoi_your_day"][QUOTE="rimnet00"]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7462548.stm

I wonder why it's always the BBC that reports these stories, but not our own media..

MarineJcksn

Because US media is trash and run by big money....

Actually, it's because the BBC is an incredibly biased source of information, as is the case with this "story".

Here's a question I pose for all the "US SuCkS!" kool aid drinkers out there: Have any of you actually BEEN to gitmo?

I've seen the conditions of Gitmo. I've had many friends stationed there. It's nothing like what the leftist run media would have you believe. Wake up to the lie people.

No, You wake up to the lie, not all "US suCks!" people drink Kool-Aid!

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]This "abusing prisoner" thing is just another reason why this "war" is so messed up. Soldiers have to try and act like policemen, discerning the good guys from the bad guys. They are charged with crimes if they mess up and hit the wrong person, or if some innocent bystander gets in the crossfire when a terrorist takes pot shots at them with his AK. The media has been all over the alleged "abuse" of PRISONERS OF WAR which is total BS, by the way. When terrorists capture our troops, they slit their throats on live TV like animals. If we do so much as lay a hand on a terror suspect, the media blows it up and everyone is all upset about these poor unfortunate terrorists. The information that interrogators are getting out of these suspects are saving lives, not only soldier's lives but Americans as well. Why does it seem like everyone wants to be on the terrorists' team?RiSkyBiZ-13

I rather have my throat slit, which almost immediately takes my life, rather then being tortured. I think most people would. Why do you think torture works?

Terrorists torture their prisoners relentlessly. I thought this was common knowledge, but considering you seem to think these terror suspects are such cuddly little teddy bears I thought I'd spell it out for you.

The information they are getting out of these interrogators? What information? Do you know how many people are in Gitmo? How many have already been released, after, being tortured, and then being told they were innocent. Including British and US citizens. Do you understand why torture is violation of the Geneva conventions?

This "torture" you speak of was a very few select ISOLATED incidents, where the parties at fault had been dealt with accordingly. The media blew the whole thing up and added some conspiracy theories to the mix.

This isn't about the soldiers. The soldiers are told what to do, and they do it. They have to, as they essentially sell their lives to the government upon enlistment. They become trained killers, and they are good at it. However, they are not to blame. The damn government is.

I AM in the military, I wouldn't care who told me to torture someone, I wouldn't do it. For some reason, you civilians seem to think that we have no brain at all, that we're some kind of robotic machine that waits for some higher up to program us to do the next move. Please.

So, when you see threads like this, use some common sense and realize that is the governmental policies that are being criticized. Even when it is a solider to blame, as the solider who commited the crime was under command of people who wear suits and smokes cigars.

Again, I'm in the service. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Youre replies are full of fallacies.

1. First of all, I never said they are anything like teddy bears. What they do, should not effect what we do. With that said, if they do torture prisoners like you suggest... where is the evidence? Beheading someone is not considered torture.

2. No, the torture I speak of is evidenced in the articles. Read the article. All 11 men who were released from gitmo, as innocent members of society, had severe cases of post traumatic stress disorder. Of which one of the doctors stated: "As a physician with more than 15 years of experience evaluating and caring for torture victims from all over the world, the torture and abuse these men were subjected to in Abu Ghraib and the resulting trauma are second to none."

Statistically, everyone is being horribly tortured in gitmo, and there is no evidence proving otherwise.

3. You being in the military, and supposedly being able to refuse orders doesn't matter in this discussion. The torture being spoken of is happening in gitmo. If any commander had half a brain, they obviously wouldn't be sending people who are unwilling to torture into gitmo to do the dirty work. Our military is not retarded in that sense.

4. Again. What the hell does being in the military have anything to do with that statement. That is a philosophical statement based on our governmental structure... *facepalm*

Pff, the "with us or against us" mentallity is getting kind of old. Just because you defend the "so-called" western values doesn't mean you're siding with the terrorists.

PS: MarineJackson, if you're really going to Iraq, good luck mate.

jointed

[QUOTE="soren008"][QUOTE="MarineJcksn"][QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]MarineJcksn

Is this guy really going to Iraq this weekend ?

Good luck if you are I guess

Thanks for that, Soren, I honestly appreciate it. I head out this weekend, can't say what day but it's definitely happening fast. Haven't been there in about 16 months, I'm actually really looking forward to going.

Take care!

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"][QUOTE="rimnet00"]

[QUOTE="RiSkyBiZ-13"]This "abusing prisoner" thing is just another reason why this "war" is so messed up. Soldiers have to try and act like policemen, discerning the good guys from the bad guys. They are charged with crimes if they mess up and hit the wrong person, or if some innocent bystander gets in the crossfire when a terrorist takes pot shots at them with his AK. The media has been all over the alleged "abuse" of PRISONERS OF WAR which is total BS, by the way. When terrorists capture our troops, they slit their throats on live TV like animals. If we do so much as lay a hand on a terror suspect, the media blows it up and everyone is all upset about these poor unfortunate terrorists. The information that interrogators are getting out of these suspects are saving lives, not only soldier's lives but Americans as well. Why does it seem like everyone wants to be on the terrorists' team?rimnet00

I rather have my throat slit, which almost immediately takes my life, rather then being tortured. I think most people would. Why do you think torture works?

Terrorists torture their prisoners relentlessly. I thought this was common knowledge, but considering you seem to think these terror suspects are such cuddly little teddy bears I thought I'd spell it out for you.

The information they are getting out of these interrogators? What information? Do you know how many people are in Gitmo? How many have already been released, after, being tortured, and then being told they were innocent. Including British and US citizens. Do you understand why torture is violation of the Geneva conventions?

This "torture" you speak of was a very few select ISOLATED incidents, where the parties at fault had been dealt with accordingly. The media blew the whole thing up and added some conspiracy theories to the mix.

This isn't about the soldiers. The soldiers are told what to do, and they do it. They have to, as they essentially sell their lives to the government upon enlistment. They become trained killers, and they are good at it. However, they are not to blame. The damn government is.

I AM in the military, I wouldn't care who told me to torture someone, I wouldn't do it. For some reason, you civilians seem to think that we have no brain at all, that we're some kind of robotic machine that waits for some higher up to program us to do the next move. Please.

So, when you see threads like this, use some common sense and realize that is the governmental policies that are being criticized. Even when it is a solider to blame, as the solider who commited the crime was under command of people who wear suits and smokes cigars.

Again, I'm in the service. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Youre replies are full of fallacies.

1. First of all, I never said they are anything like teddy bears. What they do, should not effect what we do. With that said, if they do torture prisoners like you suggest... where is the evidence? Beheading someone is not considered torture.

2. No, the torture I speak of is evidenced in the articles. Read the article. All 11 men who were released from gitmo, as innocent members of society, had severe cases of post traumatic stress disorder. Of which one of the doctors stated: "As a physician with more than 15 years of experience evaluating and caring for torture victims from all over the world, the torture and abuse these men were subjected to in Abu Ghraib and the resulting trauma are second to none."

Statistically, everyone is being horribly tortured in gitmo, and there is no evidence proving otherwise.

3. You being in the military, and supposedly being able to refuse orders doesn't matter in this discussion. The torture being spoken of is happening in gitmo. If any commander had half a brain, they obviously wouldn't be sending people who are unwilling to torture into gitmo to do the dirty work. Our military is not retarded in that sense.

4. Again. What the hell does being in the military have anything to do with that statement. That is a philosophical statement based on our governmental structure... *facepalm*

I would love to see these 'statistics' that you spoke up in the above post. I would be shocked if you could actually come up with some actual, credible, tangible numbers.

I would love to see these 'statistics' that you spoke up in the above post. I would be shocked if you could actually come up with some actual, credible, tangible numbers.

tsb247

If you have a box of 100 tomatoes, and you randomly pull out 5 from the box. All 5 have salmonella. Statistically, there is a 100% chance that the rest have salmonella. /lesson

[QUOTE="tsb247"]

I would love to see these 'statistics' that you spoke up in the above post. I would be shocked if you could actually come up with some actual, credible, tangible numbers.

rimnet00

If you have a box of 100 tomatoes, and you randomly pull out 5 from the box. All 5 have salmonella. Statistically, there is a 100% chance that the rest have salmonella. /lesson

But I think you can make an exception in this case because the US would never do such a horrible thing.

And now back to reality. Even without the statistics, everybody knows that the US doesn't imprison terrorists just to make them stop killing people.

EDIT: I forgot to add that most of these so called terrorists are not terrorists and get released eventually.

[QUOTE="MarineJcksn"][QUOTE="enjoi_your_day"][QUOTE="rimnet00"]AnotherKill

No, You wake up to the lie, not all "US suCks!" people drink Kool-Aid!

You've figured me out! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:cry:

Christ, how many times does the TC have to keep explaining while you neocons keep ignoring?

1. The people being held at/released from Guantanamo have not only not been convicted of terrorist violence, but have never been formally charged with anything. There exists a thing called due process; you're not automatically guilty because some random authority says you are. Furthermore, many of the detainees there are US and British citizens. Now do you care?

2. Torture is never ok, even if its done to brown-skinned people whose names you can't pronounce. Even if every detainee at Gitmo was charged and convicted as a terrorist (and I'll remind you that none of them have been), it is a violation of international law and basic humanity to torture anyone, ever, whether its done to extract information, as punishment, or for fun.

3. The fact that terrorists also torture people is irrelevant. We're supposed to be better than them, not just on the opposing team. Also, that tu quoque justification works both ways; the more we torture supposed terrorists, the more we provoke the same from them.

Those are very basic, easy-to-grasp facts and concepts, and I hope for humanity and America's sake that they sink in eventually.

Hey Mike, I really dig that phrase you have in your sig. With your permission, I think I'd like to use it =]criinok

You absolutely may. :)

No offense, Creepy Mike, but your views on Gitmo are incredibly idiotic. I can't believe how much you people fall for this garbage the media spoon feeds you. Have you been to Gitmo? If you've served in the Military like I currently do and you've been to Gitmo and still feel it's wrong, then I'll apologize to you and accept your opinion. If not, it just goes to show me this is yet another incident of some civilian being forcefed BS and simply regurgitating it out. No offense.

No offense, Creepy Mike, but your views on Gitmo are incredibly idiotic. I can't believe how much you people fall for this garbage the media spoon feeds you. Have you been to Gitmo? If you've served in the Military like I currently do and you've been to Gitmo and still feel it's wrong, then I'll apologize to you and accept your opinion. If not, it just goes to show me this is yet another incident of some civilian being forcefed BS and simply regurgitating it out. No offense.

MarineJcksn

No offense, Creepy Mike, but your views on Gitmo are incredibly idiotic. I can't believe how much you people fall for this garbage the media spoon feeds you. Have you been to Gitmo? If you've served in the Military like I currently do and you've been to Gitmo and still feel it's wrong, then I'll apologize to you and accept your opinion. If not, it just goes to show me this is yet another incident of some civilian being forcefed BS and simply regurgitating it out. No offense.

MarineJcksn

So why do the ex-cons from gitmo show signs of torture, even when they were innocent? There have been horror stories about torture coming from gitmo for many years now and not just through the media. Many of them came from random websites started by victims.

Just face it, the US government/military does horrible things. Is it really so hard to accept? The US government has done horrible things before, your perfect vision of how the military is like should have been shattered a long time ago.

[QUOTE="MarineJcksn"]BlackAlpha666

So why do the ex-cons from gitmo show signs of torture, even when they were innocent? There have been horror stories about torture coming from gitmo for many years now and not just through the media. Many of them came from random websites started by victims.

Just face it, the US government/military does horrible things. Is it really so hard to accept? The US government has done horrible things before, your perfect vision of how the military is like should have been shattered a long time ago.

I know I'm not going to change your closemindedness, don't know why I bother trying. Were there SOME instances of mistreatment at Gitmo? I believe it's pretty obvious that there were. But, do we in the military spend time mistreating MOST of the prisoners? Absolutely not.

Look, the thing that people like you will never and probably can never possibly understand is the efficiency and professionalism of our men and women in uniform. Look at it this way and you'll hopefully get a clear picture:

In the Marine Corps, we have what's known as the 1%. That 1% is the typical amount of complete dirtbags who somehow made it into the Corps that should've never been there in the first place. Typically, they're the Marine in the unit everyone knows is just a lost cause. Drug users, chronic troublemakers, defiant, resisting to lawful orders and so on. The 1% is generally flushed out of the Marines as the loser they are once they've screwed up enough times to get kicked out administratively through Court Martial.

If you can picture that relatively little 1% (and it's MUCH smaller then an actual 1%) as the idiots who've done things like what happened at Abu Graib and the few instances of misconduct at Gitmo, you'll hopefully see how small the problem with morons like this truly is.

Finally, what you and people like you who're constantly fed BS by the liberal media just don't ever seem to understand is that the people who want to terrorize the US know EXACTLY how to get sympathy, look like they're the victim. Do you know how much communication we've captured from al qaeda cells discussing how to use the US court system and media against us to further their cause? Don't talk like you know what the heck you're talking about, when you're only looking at half the picture.

[QUOTE="BlackAlpha666"][QUOTE="MarineJcksn"]MarineJcksn

So why do the ex-cons from gitmo show signs of torture, even when they were innocent? There have been horror stories about torture coming from gitmo for many years now and not just through the media. Many of them came from random websites started by victims.

Just face it, the US government/military does horrible things. Is it really so hard to accept? The US government has done horrible things before, your perfect vision of how the military is like should have been shattered a long time ago.

I know I'm not going to change your closemindedness, don't know why I bother trying. Were there SOME instances of mistreatment at Gitmo? I believe it's pretty obvious that there were. But, do we in the military spend time mistreating MOST of the prisoners? Absolutely not.

Look, the thing that people like you will never and probably can never possibly understand is the efficiency and professionalism of our men and women in uniform. Look at it this way and you'll hopefully get a clear picture:

In the Marine Corps, we have what's known as the 1%. That 1% is the typical amount of complete dirtbags who somehow made it into the Corps that should've never been there in the first place. Typically, they're the Marine in the unit everyone knows is just a lost cause. Drug users, chronic troublemakers, defiant, resisting to lawful orders and so on. The 1% is generally flushed out of the Marines as the loser they are once they've screwed up enough times to get kicked out administratively through Court Martial.

If you can picture that relatively little 1% (and it's MUCH smaller then an actual 1%) as the idiots who've done things like what happened at Abu Graib and the few instances of misconduct at Gitmo, you'll hopefully see how small the problem with morons like this truly is.

Finally, what you and people like you who're constantly fed BS by the liberal media just don't ever seem to understand is that the people who want to terrorize the US know EXACTLY how to get sympathy, look like they're the victim. Do you know how much communication we've captured from al qaeda cells discussing how to use the US court system and media against us to further their cause? Don't talk like you know what the heck you're talking about, when you're only looking at half the picture.

Yeah, that's why the torture keeps going on for many, many years. Many people must've been kicked out of the military for performing torture by now... not.

No, I don't look at the terrorists like they are saints but neither do I look at the US like they are saints. The thing is that the US must change for the world to become a better place. Iraq and the other middle eastern countries won't have such a big influence on the world, so I don't care as much about them. Besides, they must find their own way. Change must come slowly for the people to accept it, not instantly by force.

I'm not gonna just flame each other going back and forth, we both have our opinions and don't seem like our minds will change.

Bringing change by force is obviously something I advocate as a last resort, but it's necessary at times. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the world should've acted much more swiftly to the Nazis the minute they invaded Poland, I don't see how people can continue to not learn from history and take such a liberal stance on things like taking the fight to the enemy. Liberals are consistantly wrong over and over when it comes to matters like this, why continue to follow the same course of action? Repeatedly doing something the same way expecting a DIFFERENT outcome then all the other times is insanity.

I'm not gonna just flame each other going back and forth, we both have our opinions and don't seem like our minds will change.

Bringing change by force is obviously something I advocate as a last resort, but it's necessary at times. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the world should've acted much more swiftly to the Nazis the minute they invaded Poland, I don't see how people can continue to not learn from history and take such a liberal stance on things like taking the fight to the enemy. Liberals are consistantly wrong over and over when it comes to matters like this, why continue to follow the same course of action? Repeatedly doing something the same way expecting a DIFFERENT outcome then all the other times is insanity.

MarineJcksn

You compare Iraq and Afghanistan to Nazi Germany? I didn't see Iraq or Afghanistan try to take over the world. Nor did I see Iraq or Afghanistan interfering with western matters all the time, nor invading western countries.

Why did you make that comparison?

No offense, Creepy Mike, but your views on Gitmo are incredibly idiotic. I can't believe how much you people fall for this garbage the media spoon feeds you. Have you been to Gitmo? If you've served in the Military like I currently do and you've been to Gitmo and still feel it's wrong, then I'll apologize to you and accept your opinion. If not, it just goes to show me this is yet another incident of some civilian being forcefed BS and simply regurgitating it out. No offense.

MarineJcksn

So I am to understand that basic principles of due process, habeas corpus and fair and speedy trials are "lies" spoonfed to me by the "liberal media"? The fact that you've been to Guantanamo and are perfectly fine with the goingson there is irrelevant. It is illegal for the government to detain people indefinitely without charge. I find it more than a little disturbing that you're willing to die for this country but not willing to uphold its most basic principles, as much as I'm disturbed by your position that all civilians should "just shut up" and accept whatever the military (or random soldier) says or does simply because they're "in the know". Also, what am I to think when I see military personnel who've been stationed at Guantanamo and don't approve? Do they not count?

In fact, I propose a question to you: You've been stationed at Guantanamo, but have you ever been detained there? Its easy to approve of the treatment of unlawful prisoners when you're not one of them, isn't it? How about I only listen to what they have to say, and how about we give them a voice like our Constitution says to?

I'd like to know some other things as well, what do you say to the fact that so many of the detainees at gitmo have been released (i.e. were always innocent), that some of them were American and British citizens, or that many of them are showing medical signs of having been tortured? Come to think of it, your exact position on torture is still unclear. Please select from one of the following...

a) Torture isn't happening, because that would be wrong. The few instances at Abu Ghirab and Gitmo were isolated incidents, never since repeated or endorsed by any government or military official.

b)Torture isn't happening, because that would be wrong. "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" on the other hand, like waterboarding, forced nakedness, induced hypothermia, sleep deprivation, sensory bombardment, stress positions, sexual and cultural humiliation, etc. are perfectly ok. Use of force only qualifies as torture if it causes death or permanent organ failure.

c) Torture is happening, but that's perfectly ok.

Finally, you seemed to ignore everything I said in my last post, instead opting to dismiss it all for the entirely irrelevant reason that I've never been to Guantanamo. I'd like you to go back and present a point-by-point rebuttal, if you please.

[QUOTE="MarineJcksn"]BlackAlpha666

You compare Iraq and Afghanistan to Nazi Germany? I didn't see Iraq or Afghanistan try to take over the world. Nor did I see Iraq or Afghanistan interfering with western matters all the time, nor invading western countries.

Why did you make that comparison?

First off, did I ever once say that "Iraq and Afghanistan are like Nazi Germany"? No, I did not. Nice try though, putting the spin on what I said and trying to make it seem like I said something I didn't.

Second, I made the point that continuously Liberal ideals toward matters of security have been fundamentally wrong in the past. I used the example of how the world seemed to look the other way during the rise of the Nazi party as an example of just how wrong it is to placate and do nothing when an obvious force of evil and hatred is at work.

Third, I think your assumption that Islamic radicals like those who exist throughout the world (not just Iraq and Afghanistan either, they're everywhere) don't wish to overthrow the West shows a lack of true understanding to their cause. Have you ever talked to a detainee? Have you really listened to the words of the Clerics who constantly speak of the destruction of the West?

I can't comprehend the idea of people in this country who DONT want a complete military victory and the destruction of our enemy. We're perfectly willing to work on a peaceful solution here, but the line needs to be drawn in the sand and the message made very clear to those who wish to do us harm: Don't even try it.

[QUOTE="MarineJcksn"]creepy_mike

I haven't been stationed at Gitmo as a duty station but have been there temporarily. I'll admit, it was brief only several weeks. But the conditions there were the following, and you can believe me or choose not too you have the right to do so:

-Prisoners were given ample food, 3 times a day and water when desired.
-Meals were in accordance with religious preference and with Muslim detainees was approved for consumption in keeping with strict religious standards.
-Prisoners were always given access to practice their religion. Accurate signs were posted several places showing the direction of Mecca.
-They were allowed staggered recreation time to include television, books, etc.
-They were allowed to receive and send mail.

Only when detainees broke rules were they stripped of small CI which stands for Comfort Items, such as not allowing them to take part in recreational time or taking away their letter writing equipment. As long as the detainee adhered to rules, CI wasn't taken from them.

From what I witnessed, they didn't have conditions as relaxed as say, some of our lower security US prisons. But the Hanoi Hilton, Gitmo isn't. At least from what I saw, like I said I wasn't there long but the treatment prisoners got was in direct accordance with the Geneva Convention.

As for the A, B or C choice I wont pick one but rather explain what I believe based on what I saw and what I've heard from the friends I have who were stationed there longer:

Intel gathering techniques being used in Gitmo don't fall under the definition of what you would call "conventional torture", IMO. Sensory techniques, such as repeatedly playing music over and over on a continued loop, extended periods of time exposed to light or dark, those aren't torture IMO. Nor is waterboarding for that matter. Waterboarding was against rules when I was there except for circumstances where proof existed that the detainee knew of an attack that was already in motion and even then it took very high ranking approval to authorize. Waterboarding feels like you're going to drown, and that's it. Sure, it scares the heck out of you but it's administered under strict supervision and you aren't in that much real danger.

I personally feel the incidences of what some might call "torture" are relatively incidents of command failure, from the serviceman who broke rules all the way up to his or her Commanding Officer and in those cases they should be relieved of duty and punished.

I think what people who only read stories like the one wrote by Erik Saar don't understand is this is all aimed at only giving you one side of the true story. Please don't bother with the illusion of Habeas Corpus in this issue. It's a dead horse that people can't stop loving to beat. It's been historically denied MANY times in the past in the US, even by the "Great" Bill Clinton(although it imposed a Statute of Limitations).

"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it."

Research the German invasion of spies into florida and New York city during WW2, and what we did to them when they were caught. They received a fair trial and when they were found guilty they were put to death. Funny how students of the New Deal seem to forget all that happened under FDR.