What do Americans think of their own history?

I'm proud of my country and it's history. We aren't perfect but IN MY OPINION we are the best country in the world.

I think that our history is pretty embarassing, really. We stand up for freedom and justice, but half the time we outright deny it to other people (including American citizens). Almost all countries are like this but the US does not have a better (or cleaner) history than anyone else, as most Americans believe.

The Indians had a rough time, so I feel guilty and depressed all the time...

Ha, no. Can you imagine if I was like that? I enjoy studying history in general, but for the most part, I find European history more interesting than American history.

The Indians had a rough time, so I feel guilty and depressed all the time...

Ha, no. Can you imagine if I was like that? I enjoy studying history in general, but for the most part, I find European history more interesting than American history.

Palantas

Well you should...

Anyway I agree the history of the rest of the world (especially Europe and Asia) is much more interesting.

Hmm too much enslavement in american history.

[QUOTE="I"]

The Indians had a rough time, so I feel guilty and depressed all the time...

Tokugawa77

Well you should...

You're kidding, right?

pretty damn awesome until the Cold War, then it seems like things went downhill.

but hey, we are fairly young, gotta have a few bad decades in there.

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

[QUOTE="I"]

The Indians had a rough time, so I feel guilty and depressed all the time...

Palantas

Well you should...

You're kidding, right?

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

I've been watching America: The Story of the US, which pretty much goes through the entire history of America and ends at the present day (with Obama getting elected). I find American history fascinating - the speeches by Washington (Declaration of Independence) and Lincoln (Gettysburg Address) are absolutely godly, and always make me emotional every time I hear them. Do Americans think their history is wonderful? As a British man in Northern Ireland, and I don't particularly think my own Irish/British history is that interesting, although I'm not sure if that's because its my own history or because it's not as interesting as other histories.michaelP4

Let's just say I don't have as peachy an outlook as you do, that documentary sounds like it's pretty one-sided. If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civilians. Simply put, I don't think the best gauge of a civilization are the speeches of its leaders, which are generally attempts to arouse feelings of pride. Your feelings simply tell me that they were effective speech writers, not necessarily great men.

A few things, though. One, Irish history is very interesting, from Irish attempts to win representation to Ireland when it was still an independent country, to the seige of Ireland in the 20th century by the UK. The problem is that they probably don't teach the whole history of Ireland in British schools. Two, British history is American history. Three, the British have a rich, if not necessarily amiable, history that goes back centuries and includes the most prominent western war until the twentieth century, the first Emperor of the west, and the bulk of western exploration of the globe.

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

Tokugawa77

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

Palantas

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]I've been watching America: The Story of the US, which pretty much goes through the entire history of America and ends at the present day (with Obama getting elected). I find American history fascinating - the speeches by Washington (Declaration of Independence) and Lincoln (Gettysburg Address) are absolutely godly, and always make me emotional every time I hear them. Do Americans think their history is wonderful? As a British man in Northern Ireland, and I don't particularly think my own Irish/British history is that interesting, although I'm not sure if that's because its my own history or because it's not as interesting as other histories.theone86

Let's just say I don't have as peachy an outlook as you do, that documentary sounds like it's pretty one-sided. If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civilians. Simply put, I don't think the best gauge of a civilization are the speeches of its leaders, which are generally attempts to arouse feelings of pride. Your feelings simply tell me that they were effective speech writers, not necessarily great men.

A few things, though. One, Irish history is very interesting, from Irish attempts to win representation to Ireland when it was still an independent country, to the seige of Ireland in the 20th century by the UK. The problem is that they probably don't teach the whole history of Ireland in British schools. Two, British history is American history. Three, the British have a rich, if not necessarily amiable, history that goes back centuries and includes the most prominent western war until the twentieth century, the first Emperor of the west, and the bulk of western exploration of the globe.

I pretty much agree. That show was so biased... It basically skimmed over the numerouscrimes that we have committed... But I suppose the rest of the world already knows about those.

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

Palantas

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

I suppose I just assumed that you were a moral person.

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

Palantas

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

Because you're a human being (I think) and you have empathy for other human beings (I hope).

Palantas, I have missed you.

[QUOTE="I"]

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

majoras_wrath

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

I dunno, most people tend to have a negative view of atrocities.

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

EDIT: I see several responses here, none of them telling me why I should feel guilt or depression.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

No... You saying that the US was not at fault for those crimes? While you yourself should not feel guilty (you had nothing to do with it) you should be embarassed for your country...

theone86

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

Because you're a human being (I think) and you have empathy for other human beings (I hope).

It is difficult to feel empathy for people I have never met or known that lived during a time I have never experienced.

It is history; tragic it might be, it is difficult to feel genuinely emotional about it at all. The best we can do is learn from it and, in this case, not repeat it.

I don't feel ashamed or embarrassed by it at all. And if anyone does, well, relative to the history of just about any other nation, the US is a saint so don't feel too bad.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"][QUOTE="I"]

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

Palantas

I dunno, most people tend to have a negative view of atrocities.

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

EDIT: I see several responses here, none of them telling me why I should feel guilt or depression.

There, see the crying Indian? Hopefully you can feel bad now, cuz you should

:P

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

I dunno, most people tend to have a negative view of atrocities.

mrbojangles25

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

EDIT: I see several responses here, none of them telling me why I should feel guilt or depression.

There, see the crying Indian? Hopefully you can feel bad now, cuz you should

:P

He wasn't a real native American

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"][QUOTE="I"]

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

Palantas

I dunno, most people tend to have a negative view of atrocities.

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]

I dunno, most people tend to have a negative view of atrocities.

majoras_wrath

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

Odd then that we expect the Japanese to apologize for crimes committed 70 years ago. Ok, not embarased, ashamed? whatever word you use the point still gets across.

pretty damn awesome until the Cold War, then it seems like things went downhill.

but hey, we are fairly young, gotta have a few bad decades in there.

mrbojangles25

It's interesting. My family are virtual "newcomers" to the US (I'm a 3rd-generation American on both sides of my family) so I don't feel the "guilt" people seem to insist I should be feeling about the darker parts of history. If we were a pristine nation, would we be trying as hard as we are to be a better one?

Let's just say I don't have as peachy an outlook as you do, that documentary sounds like it's pretty one-sided. If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civilians. Simply put, I don't think the best gauge of a civilization are the speeches of its leaders, which are generally attempts to arouse feelings of pride. Your feelings simply tell me that they were effective speech writers, not necessarily great men.theone86

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"][QUOTE="Palantas"]

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

Tokugawa77

Odd then that we expect the Japanese to apologize for crimes committed 70 years ago. Ok, not embarased, ashamed? whatever word you use the point still gets across.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"][QUOTE="Palantas"]

He's not telling me I should have a "negative view of anything." He's telling me I should feel a certain way about something. Usually, "should" implies some sort of moral imperative. He's telling me I have a moral imperative to feel a certain way. I'd love to know why.

Tokugawa77

Odd then that we expect the Japanese to apologize for crimes committed 70 years ago. Ok, not embarased, ashamed? whatever word you use the point still gets across.

we expect the Japanese government to apologize, not the people. Just like the US apologized for imprisoning Japanese people during WWII in internment camps. Just like the government of Germany apologized for the Holocaust. You get the idea

Government =/= the people, despite the fact we might say the government represents the people here :P

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

mrbojangles25

Because you're a human being (I think) and you have empathy for other human beings (I hope).

It is difficult to feel empathy for people I have never met or known that lived during a time I have never experienced.

It is history; tragic it might be, it is difficult to feel genuinely emotional about it at all. The best we can do is learn from it and, in this case, not repeat it.

I don't feel ashamed or embarrassed by it at all. And if anyone does, well, relative to the history of just about any other nation, the US is a saint so don't feel too bad.

US is a saint? I have a hard time buying that. But I am not in the mood to start bashing the US, so I'll let that point slide. yes, it is hard to actually feel emotional for people in history, but you can be empathetic. it's not too hard to imagine yourself in their position. Sadly, deaths that have taken place in history are little more than statistics for us today.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]I've been watching America: The Story of the US, which pretty much goes through the entire history of America and ends at the present day (with Obama getting elected). I find American history fascinating - the speeches by Washington (Declaration of Independence) and Lincoln (Gettysburg Address) are absolutely godly, and always make me emotional every time I hear them. Do Americans think their history is wonderful? As a British man in Northern Ireland, and I don't particularly think my own Irish/British history is that interesting, although I'm not sure if that's because its my own history or because it's not as interesting as other histories.Tokugawa77

Let's just say I don't have as peachy an outlook as you do, that documentary sounds like it's pretty one-sided. If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civilians. Simply put, I don't think the best gauge of a civilization are the speeches of its leaders, which are generally attempts to arouse feelings of pride. Your feelings simply tell me that they were effective speech writers, not necessarily great men.

A few things, though. One, Irish history is very interesting, from Irish attempts to win representation to Ireland when it was still an independent country, to the seige of Ireland in the 20th century by the UK. The problem is that they probably don't teach the whole history of Ireland in British schools. Two, British history is American history. Three, the British have a rich, if not necessarily amiable, history that goes back centuries and includes the most prominent western war until the twentieth century, the first Emperor of the west, and the bulk of western exploration of the globe.

I pretty much agree. That show was so biased... It basically skimmed over the numerouscrimes that we have committed... But I suppose the rest of the world already knows about those.

Personally, I'm not so much surprised that we've committed crimes as a nation, I'm surprised at how such crimes can go right against principles that we have etched in stone as unalienable and then how people can not only attempt to make excuses for those crimes, but then how in other instances they can be so stringently opposed to any deviation from such principles in other cases. For instance, SCOTUS has said that any deviation from the FA would lead to a slippery slope, yet Lenny Bruce can be arrested in broad daylight for having an obscene routine. You can go down these lists of freedoms and just keep checking them off. Freedom to assembly, absolutely, unless the government suddenly decides against it. Right to a fair trial and due process, absolutely, unless the government decides against. Freedom of speech, absolutely, but only speech that's deemed acceptable. You want to protest the draft? Oh, free speech, freedom of assmebly, not that great anymore. You want to strike? Same deal, in fact we'll have the army raid the camp that's housing the strikers and kill a bunch of them, we'll imprison or execute citizens for protesting the draft, we'll round up Japanese citizens and put them in camps, but it's always necessary to break these freedoms when the government wants to break them, and when they stop wanting to break them then all of the sudden any derivation becomes a slippery slope again.

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] I'm not going to argue for a "moral imperative" since obviously morals aren't universal, but generally speaking, most people no matter their moral system have a hard time being ok with atrocities committed by their country. If you want to argue whether they were "atrocities" or not that's your business, but from where I am standing it's pretty clear. I'll agree that his wording...bothers me. To think of it, "embarrassed" isn't quite the right word (and it isn't accurate in what I said in this thread tbh), and infers that somehow you as an american are connected with the awful events that have occurred. That's like expecting a German to apologize for Hitler if they had nothing to do with the era or the events.mrbojangles25

Odd then that we expect the Japanese to apologize for crimes committed 70 years ago. Ok, not embarased, ashamed? whatever word you use the point still gets across.

we expect the Japanese government to apologize, not the people. Just like the US apologized for imprisoning Japanese people during WWII in internment camps. Just like the government of Germany apologized for the Holocaust. You get the idea

Government =/= the people, despite the fact we might say the government represents the people here :P

The current governmnet is not at all the same one that was in power during world war two... so they really had as little to do with Japanese attrocities as modern day Japanese. the US actually put the current governmnet in place... Should they feel remorseful or "ashamed"? Of course. Especially if you are the patriotic type.

It's interesting. My family are virtual "newcomers" to the US (I'm a 3rd-generation American on both sides of my family) so I don't feel the "guilt" people seem to insist I should be feeling about the darker parts of history. If we were a pristine nation, would we be trying as hard as we are to be a better one?

[QUOTE="theone86"]Let's just say I don't have as peachy an outlook as you do, that documentary sounds like it's pretty one-sided. If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civilians. Simply put, I don't think the best gauge of a civilization are the speeches of its leaders, which are generally attempts to arouse feelings of pride. Your feelings simply tell me that they were effective speech writers, not necessarily great men.OrkHammer007

Certainly not all of those apply to every nation on the planet, and many of them that apply to a wide number of nations I would say that there's far more intracacy involved in analyzing different situations in different countries. Nevertheless, even if many or all countries are doing the same thing, that doesn't all of the sudden make it right.

If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civilianstheone86

What's not to love about it? American history has just been Americans dishing out one brutal asswhoopin' after another.fidosim

Yeah. At one point in time we got so bored of not having any fighting to do that we just fought ourselves because we were just that hardcore.

[QUOTE="Tokugawa77"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] I'm not going to argue for a "moral imperative" since obviously morals aren't universal, but generally speaking, most people no matter their moral system have a hard time being ok with atrocities committed by their country. If you want to argue whether they were "atrocities" or not that's your business, but from where I am standing it's pretty clear. I'll agree that his wording...bothers me. To think of it, "embarrassed" isn't quite the right word (and it isn't accurate in what I said in this thread tbh), and infers that somehow you as an american are connected with the awful events that have occurred. That's like expecting a German to apologize for Hitler if they had nothing to do with the era or the events.mrbojangles25

Odd then that we expect the Japanese to apologize for crimes committed 70 years ago. Ok, not embarased, ashamed? whatever word you use the point still gets across.

we expect the Japanese government to apologize, not the people. Just like the US apologized for imprisoning Japanese people during WWII in internment camps. Just like the government of Germany apologized for the Holocaust. You get the idea

Government =/= the people, despite the fact we might say the government represents the people here :P

I don't expect people to hold themselves personally accountable for crimes committed in past generations, I do however expect them to own their own history. What I mean by that is that it shouldn't be just, "okay, we did some bad things, we're sorry, now let's never talk about it again and let's go back to acting like we're the greatest country on the planet that never does anything wrong." People need to learn from history, and that's what upsets me about this viewpoint is that nothing is learned. Furthermore, with regards the the Japanese and the Germans, they've at least tried to do what they can to make things better. I know loss of life can never be replaced, but they did pay prices in signed treaties and reconstruction efforts. What have we done to make up for what we did to Native Americans? We stuck them on plantations, sold them a ton of liquor, and forgot about them for a sufficient amount of time for the memory of what we did to them to dull, and for inbreeding to set in. At any rate, we need to own our history. It would be one thing if people went around saying, "yeah, we killed people for protesting the war, and I'm okay with that," but they don't do that. What they do is to try and sugarcoat it, to say that we had no other choice, to try and excuse these actions, and that is what I have a problem with.

[QUOTE="theone86"] If I had to describe our history I'd say bloody, oppressive, exploitative, full of sensationalism, propaganda, half-truths, vicious beatings, forced conscritpion, food riots, draft ritos, strike breaking, racism, killings, inequality, hypocrisy, forcible conquest, genocide, mass murder of civiliansVerge_6

If they're all doing these things, then how civilized can they be?

No, because it's history. That was then, but this is now. We live in the present, we are the present and the future.Plus ALL historical dramatizations are full of exaggerations andpropaganda. I'm sure there's more story than fact.

I'm not going to argue for a "moral imperative" since obviously morals aren't universal, but generally speaking, most people no matter their moral system have a hard time being ok with atrocities committed by their country. If you want to argue whether they were "atrocities" or not that's your business, but from where I am standing it's pretty clear. I'll agree that his wording...bothers me. To think of it, "embarrassed" isn't quite the right word (and it isn't accurate in what I said in this thread tbh), and infers that somehow you as an american are connected with the awful events that have occurred. That's like expecting a German to apologize for Hitler if they had nothing to do with the era or the events.majoras_wrath

Pretty much this.

If they're all doing these thingstheone86

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

Oh...you're not kidding. Tell me, why should I feel any particular way about anything?

mrbojangles25

Because you're a human being (I think) and you have empathy for other human beings (I hope).

It is difficult to feel empathy for people I have never met or known that lived during a time I have never experienced.

It is history; tragic it might be, it is difficult to feel genuinely emotional about it at all. The best we can do is learn from it and, in this case, not repeat it.

I don't feel ashamed or embarrassed by it at all. And if anyone does, well, relative to the history of just about any other nation, the US is a saint so don't feel too bad.

It is? I feel empathy for them. How can you not feel empathy for people who were bartered off to slave traders, or put in camps because of their race, or forcefully driven off their land?

As for the U.S. being a saint, I tend to disagree. Perhaps in the sense that the U.S. is younger than most other western nations, but other than nations that have committed an ethnic cleansing I don't see a whole lot of other nations that have done what the U.S. has in the relatively short period since it has been founded.

[QUOTE="theone86"]If they're all doing these thingsVerge_6

My tense is merely literary, I'm not specifying any start or end point. Thanks for cutting my post, though.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]I'm not going to argue for a "moral imperative" since obviously morals aren't universal, but generally speaking, most people no matter their moral system have a hard time being ok with atrocities committed by their country. If you want to argue whether they were "atrocities" or not that's your business, but from where I am standing it's pretty clear. I'll agree that his wording...bothers me. To think of it, "embarrassed" isn't quite the right word (and it isn't accurate in what I said in this thread tbh), and infers that somehow you as an american are connected with the awful events that have occurred. That's like expecting a German to apologize for Hitler if they had nothing to do with the era or the events.Palantas

Pretty much this.

[QUOTE="Palantas"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"]I'm not going to argue for a "moral imperative" since obviously morals aren't universal, but generally speaking, most people no matter their moral system have a hard time being ok with atrocities committed by their country. If you want to argue whether they were "atrocities" or not that's your business, but from where I am standing it's pretty clear. I'll agree that his wording...bothers me. To think of it, "embarrassed" isn't quite the right word (and it isn't accurate in what I said in this thread tbh), and infers that somehow you as an american are connected with the awful events that have occurred. That's like expecting a German to apologize for Hitler if they had nothing to do with the era or the events.majoras_wrath

Pretty much this.

I thought it was... if not he was just being a smart *alec*

all I know is that it's better than your country's history.

merica.

I'm not specifying any start or end point.theone86

[QUOTE="theone86"] I'm not specifying any start or end point.Verge_6

No, I didn't. As I said my tense was simply literary, and didn't specify a start or end point. The tense really has no bearing on this discussion, but thanks for detracting from my original point, I always love when people do that.

[QUOTE="Jagged3dge"]

Its interesting, dark but interesting.

sonicare

I don't disagree at all.

The tense really has no bearing on this discussiontheone86

Which is why you're only addressing that part instead of the whole "past actions define whether a society is civilized" part? Let's keep this on track.

The US has had a history of violence and oppression, this is undeniable. But so has pretty much every other country on the face of this earth, yet is it just to view the history of, let's say Russia, as being only comprised of food riots, draft riots, oppression, killing of civilians etc. etc.? Of course not, such a notion is laughable. It's filled with great art, great men, great inventions, great achievements etc. etc. One doesn't just gloss over all of this simply because the nation did what every other nation did.