What do you feel after seeing this? (Are we really alone?)

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V3rciS

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#51  Edited By V3rciS
Member since 2011 • 2241 Posts

@MrGeezer said:

@V3rciS said:

Why are you so certain we're not gonna have contact with them? I mean sure it won't happen tomorrow or in 10 years but how can you be sure it won't happen in 100, 500, fucking 1000 years from now?

First of all I think you'll agree with me that we're just at the start of technological 'boom evolution'. In the last 60-70 years we've achieved more than humanity could do for 500-1000 years. That's a huge leap, and we've just started. We just now trying to understand and decode DNA, our Brain... true Artificial Intelligence is still years away but eventually it will happen and the quest for it just begun. Some say that by 2025-2035 we'll have our first colonies on Mars. Internet... that's our global network and we just started experiencing it 20 years ago, today no one can imagine life without internet. Advancements in medicine health care fields like prosthetic limbs or laboratory grown organs. Even Transhumanism... and the list goes on and on... but whole point is that our technological advancement is rapid and it will only continue developing. So why shouldn't I believe that eventually we'll discover SOMETHING, SOMEHOW that can help us making interstellar travels and even colonize other planets, and why not even getting in contact with some of those civilizations? For some of them we might look like gods (them being undeveloped yet), while for some others we might look like parasites.

Watch this guy... Michio Kaku... if you don't know him, he's a futurologist and theoretical physicist. In this video he explains his theory about types of civilization that could possibly occur in the universe.

PS: Sorry if you're struggling to understand my text, I'm not native english speaker.

Loading Video...

Light speed barrier, dude. As far as we know, NOTHING can travel faster than light, and light only travels at about 186,000 miles per second. When you consider how absolutely freaking HUGE the universe is, this means that it takes the fastest thing in the universe a LONG ass time to get to even relatively close locations.

So...unless there are civilizations out there which have found a way to travel faster than light, we're PROBABLY effectively freaking alone in the universe.

And sure...I'm not CERTAIN of this. MAYBE it's possible to travel faster than light. There have been hypothetical proposals which MIGHT allow for bypassing the light speed barrier, such as wormholes. But I'd like to point out that none of this stuff has even been established to be physically POSSIBLE. Establish that it is possible within the realm of physics to travels faster than light (either through space or by bypassing space), and then I'll entertain the idea. Until then, I'm confident (although not CERTAIN) that we are effectively alone. I feel it's a pretty safe assumption that any civilization, no matter how advanced, must obey the laws of physics. And until physics have established that it's possible to travel faster than light, then that places a BIG limit on how far away any civilizations can be while still having an effect on us. They'd have to already live EXTREMELY close to us (in cosmic terms), and once we come to that conclusion it is very plausible that they aren't in existence at all. Because even if there are billions of intelligent civilizations in the universe, we're talking about THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. That doesn't invalidate the very real possibility that the LOCAL area is entirely dead except for us.

Your assumption is very correct and makes sense... in fact to travel to the nearest star (Proxima Centauri) we need to travel with the speed of light for 4,2 years. That's insane I know, but do not underestimate humans and technology. Like you said wormholes could be indeed a possible solution for this, of course no one knows for sure as we haven't really discovered them and I can totally relate with your scepticism and it sounds very much like a sci-fi story, but please keep in mind that some years ago if you would speak about DNA or synthetic prosthetic limbs or spacecrafts or Internet or browsing your computer with simple thoughts (connected cables to your brains) and many many more other discoveries that we had recently... so yea if you would speak about all those things back then people would think that you're mentally ill or maybe even burn you thinking that you're a witch/sorcerer.

Nothing is impossible until proven otherwise, we still haven't proven that wormholes or other means of fast traveling are impossible. Even the time travel while not proven to exist, haven't been disproved as well. Just now we're trying to work on string theories, anti-matter, dark energy, multiverse, things that were unthinkable few decades ago. So maybe in 200 years we actually prove they exist, in 500 years we understand them better and in 3000 we could actually use them and manipulate them.

What makes science and physics awesome is that unlike religion it accepts the fact that it can be wrong and accepts any future revisions or other theories that can prove it wrong.

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MrGeezer

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#52  Edited By MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

I get your point, I'm just saying that "technologically impossible" and "physically impossible" are two different things and we shouldn't get them mixed up.

Like...some people cite how people used to think that humans would never achieve flight or sail across the oceans. But the objections to those were based on TECHNOLOGY, not physics. We know that flight is physically possible (everyone has seen birds and flies), the only question is whether or not we have the technology to do it ourselves. We know that sailing across the sea is physically possible, after all we have boats. The only question is if we can logistically do that across an entire ocean. Then technology got better and we found out, "yes, we can do it."

So yeah, I get what you're saying. But there we were talking about technological limitations, not physical limitations. We knew that flight and sea travel were possible, because they were demonstrated to happen. Faster-than-light speed is another beast. Sure...MAYBE it's possible, but we don't know. Going the "maybe we'll discover the technology to create wormholes and bypass the light speed barrier" implies that doing so is actually possible within the realm of physics. And AFAIK, we don't know that. This isn't a case of "we know physics allow it, we just have to hope that technology catches up." Rather, it's a case of "we just have to hope that physics allows it." And that's a big disctinction because one of those is in our control and the other isn't. Like I said before, I think it's a reasonable assumption that NO intelligent civilization, no matter how advanced, can ever overcome the laws of physics. And if physics CURRENTLY say that the speed of light in a total vacuum is the fastest speed allowed, then that's what I'm going with. Wormholes may be proven to be a reality tomorrow, warp drives may be proven to be physically possible tomorrow. And when that happens, I'll change my stance. Until then, that kind of sci-fi stuff is purely hypothetical as far as I'm concerned. Which means that life (as we know it) is probably NEVER going to come into contact with us unless it is located EXTREMELY close to us (in cosmic terms).

But again, I'm totally not CERTAIN about this. I'm willing to change my stance on the issue, I just haven't seen enough evidence to change my stance. I totally admit the POSSIBILITY that humans will come into contact with sentient extraterrestrial beings, I just think that the scale of the universe makes it EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that such an event will ever occur.

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MlauTheDaft

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#53 MlauTheDaft
Member since 2011 • 5189 Posts

The image means that space is huge and I personally think it'd be more surprising if we WERE alone than if we were'nt.

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V3rciS

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#54 V3rciS
Member since 2011 • 2241 Posts

@MrGeezer said:

I get your point, I'm just saying that "technologically impossible" and "physically impossible" are two different things and we shouldn't get them mixed up.

Like...some people cite how people used to think that humans would never achieve flight or sail across the oceans. But the objections to those were based on TECHNOLOGY, not physics. We know that flight is physically possible (everyone has seen birds and flies), the only question is whether or not we have the technology to do it ourselves. We know that sailing across the sea is physically possible, after all we have boats. The only question is if we can logistically do that across an entire ocean. Then technology got better and we found out, "yes, we can do it."

So yeah, I get what you're saying. But there we were talking about technological limitations, not physical limitations. We knew that flight and sea travel were possible, because they were demonstrated to happen. Faster-than-light speed is another beast. Sure...MAYBE it's possible, but we don't know. Going the "maybe we'll discover the technology to create wormholes and bypass the light speed barrier" implies that doing so is actually possible within the realm of physics. And AFAIK, we don't know that. This isn't a case of "we know physics allow it, we just have to hope that technology catches up." Rather, it's a case of "we just have to hope that physics allows it." And that's a big disctinction because one of those is in our control and the other isn't. Like I said before, I think it's a reasonable assumption that NO intelligent civilization, no matter how advanced, can ever overcome the laws of physics. And if physics CURRENTLY say that the speed of light in a total vacuum is the fastest speed allowed, then that's what I'm going with. Wormholes may be proven to be a reality tomorrow, warp drives may be proven to be physically possible tomorrow. And when that happens, I'll change my stance. Until then, that kind of sci-fi stuff is purely hypothetical as far as I'm concerned. Which means that life (as we know it) is probably NEVER going to come into contact with us unless it is located EXTREMELY close to us (in cosmic terms).

But again, I'm totally not CERTAIN about this. I'm willing to change my stance on the issue, I just haven't seen enough evidence to change my stance. I totally admit the POSSIBILITY that humans will come into contact with sentient extraterrestrial beings, I just think that the scale of the universe makes it EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that such an event will ever occur.

correct... but please don't forget that even physic theories sometimes can be proven wrong, or simply not discovered yet. For example the theory of multiverse is something recent, now we can only theorize on it but maybe... I say maybe in the future we'll actually prove it's correct and maybe we'll even be able to implement it or manipulate it somehow... we don't know. that's the problem, we don't know... until we know, nothing is certain

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br0kenrabbit

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#55 br0kenrabbit
Member since 2004 • 18081 Posts

@V3rciS said:

Your assumption is very correct and makes sense... in fact to travel to the nearest star (Proxima Centauri) we need to travel with the speed of light for 4,2 years. That's insane I know, but do not underestimate humans and technology. Like you said wormholes could be indeed a possible solution for this, of course no one knows for sure as we haven't really discovered them and I can totally relate with your scepticism and it sounds very much like a sci-fi story, but please keep in mind that some years ago if you would speak about DNA or synthetic prosthetic limbs or spacecrafts or Internet or browsing your computer with simple thoughts (connected cables to your brains) and many many more other discoveries that we had recently... so yea if you would speak about all those things back then people would think that you're mentally ill or maybe even burn you thinking that you're a witch/sorcerer.

Nothing is impossible until proven otherwise, we still haven't proven that wormholes or other means of fast traveling are impossible. Even the time travel while not proven to exist, haven't been disproved as well. Just now we're trying to work on string theories, anti-matter, dark energy, multiverse, things that were unthinkable few decades ago. So maybe in 200 years we actually prove they exist, in 500 years we understand them better and in 3000 we could actually use them and manipulate them.

What makes science and physics awesome is that unlike religion it accepts the fact that it can be wrong and accepts any future revisions or other theories that can prove it wrong.

Math works for a lot of things that are impracticable: a (true) Dyson sphere, for instance.

Manipulating wormholes means manipulating quantum foam, which raises of whole host of possible unintended consequences.

I still think it far more likely that humans will eventually leave Earth and any other planet altogether, perhaps building islands of humanity near various recoverable space resources. People may one day look at the galaxy the way our ancestors scanned the land; "Good water, plentiful resources, few imminent threats...let's build here."

I think if we ever do run into intelligent alien life it will be because both our civilizations are expanding, not just out exploring.

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deactivated-5c73e1dc0ab05

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#57  Edited By deactivated-5c73e1dc0ab05
Member since 2013 • 48 Posts

I have many feelings when I see images such as these, be it on a forum, television, or my university. It is a mix of curiosity, awe, desolation, fear, uncertainty, and both significance and insignificance.

Interestingly, there is evidently some innate quality of the universe to establish life as we know it. Conscious being such as ourselves are capable of observing these qualities of the universe. In a way, the universe is self-aware and is learning.

As to are we alone, I do not think so. It seems unlikely, as researchers believe. There could be forms of life similar to the ones we are capable of observing here, such as bacteria, animals, plants, etc. Some could even be more advanced than ourselves in technology, intelligence, or biology. But if there's one thing about exploring the universe, it is being prepared for expecting the unexpected. There could be forms of life we'd never expect, with characteristics never considered to ever be attributed to life or even characteristics never observed at all. That is exciting. If we are in fact the most advanced form of life, I think that makes us significant. And I think we should continue our study of the universe, of ourselves.

I think I may head down to the astrobiology research group sometime next week. Thank you for the thread, TC!

EDIT: spelling

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jer_1

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#58 jer_1
Member since 2003 • 7451 Posts

Not a chance in hell (which does not exist) that we are the only ones out in this vast universe.

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V3rciS

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#59 V3rciS
Member since 2011 • 2241 Posts

@WittleWittleton said:

I have many feelings when I see images such as these, be it on a forum, television, or my university. It is a mix of curiosity, awe, desolation, fear, uncertainty, and both significance and insignificance.

Interestingly, there is evidently some innate quality of the universe to establish life as we know it. Conscious being such as ourselves are capable of observing these qualities of the universe. In a way, the universe is self-aware and is learning.

As to are we alone, I do not think so. It seems unlikely, as researchers believe. There could be forms of life similar to the ones we are capable of observing here, such as bacteria, animals, plants, etc. Some could even be more advanced than ourselves in technology, intelligence, or biology. But if there's one thing about exploring the universe, it is being prepared for expecting the unexpected. There could be forms of life we'd never expect, with characteristics never considered to ever be attributed to life or even characteristics never observed at all. That is exciting. If we are in fact the most advanced form of life, I think that makes us significant. And I think we should continue our study of the universe, of ourselves.

I think I may head down to the astrobiology research group sometime next week. Thank you for the thread, TC!

EDIT: spelling

I'm glad you liked it, if I may ask, what are you studying at the moment?

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deactivated-5c73e1dc0ab05

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#60  Edited By deactivated-5c73e1dc0ab05
Member since 2013 • 48 Posts

@V3rciS: Absolutely. I'm studying chemistry at the moment, planning to specialize in computational and theoretical chemistry and hopefully make it to graduate school to do research in the quantum chemistry research "lab". The lab consists of a room with just three computers, no actual experiments are performed. It's a mathematical approach to explaining phenomena in chemistry. I switched to chemistry after completing a major in geology, which is also a very fascinating discipline.